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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

iLION12345_1

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Germany is busy selling Subs to Egypt and Frigates to Algeria. They will sell. Plus all don't have to agree to get EFT sold

I am seriously going to bang my head with the wall. J 10 C induction has nothing to do with Azm. Azm project even in perfect scenario will take 10 to 15 years. Everyone knows it from day one. And no west means Europe and USA
german decision was to get lucrative deals in indian subs deals(sub parts if french subs)
saab sold us because they thought they dont stand much chance
EFT was not offered to Pakistan, Pakistan considered it on their own. No country offers a fighter randomly unless a country shows requirement, which in Pakistan’s case they never do so publicly. They were willing to sell us EFT too, just not in the form and without the weapons PAF wanted (or that’s what I understand from the entire story, since it’s not available too clearly.)
And just to be clear, the three major partners (Italy, UK and Germany) all do need to approve the sale of EFT for it to be sold. It can’t be sold even if one says no, Because At least one major part comes from each country. But that usually isn’t an issue because they want sales for their aircraft. Unlike the US or China they cannot really afford to turn down large sales like one to Pakistan. If one of the 3 is on board with the sale, they can usually convince the other two, Italy in Pakistan’s case would be enough. And Germany-Pak and UK-Pak relations are positive, unlike France-Pak relations.
That being said, they totally can refuse to give what the PAF wants exactly, which would usually be the most advanced version of what they have available, which seems to be the case according to Blacklights post, this could be either to preserve their technology because they don’t fully trust Pakistan or to keep others happy. Lastly Just the fighter isn’t the issue, the missiles for it are an issue too, though an EFT armed with just Pakistan’s available AIM120C5 would be much superior than F16V and J-10C, it doesn’t make sense in the long run obviously to buy it without Meteor Or AIM120D, neither of which are easy to get, one has a French part to it and the other is American.

And no, Germany never said no to Subs for Pakistan afaik. They were very willing to sell, They said no to AIP, which was not unique to Pakistan. Their AIP tech is not offered to anyone but countries that are close to them/NATO. This was obviously a deal breaker.
Saab never said no to selling fighters to Pakistan either, they wanted to sell the gripen back when it was tested by the PAF, it was US who blocked the sale because it had 20% US components.
 
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Zarvan

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EFT was not offered to Pakistan, Pakistan considered it on their own. No country offers a fighter randomly unless a country shows requirement, which in Pakistan’s case they never do so publicly. They were willing to sell us EFT too, just not in the form and without the weapons PAF wanted (or that’s what I understand from the entire story, since it’s not available too clearly.)
And just to be clear, the three major partners (Italy, UK and Germany) all do need to approve the sale of EFT for it to be sold. It can’t be sold even if one says no, Because At least one major part comes from each country. But that usually isn’t an issue because they want sales for their aircraft. Unlike the US or China they cannot really afford to turn down large sales like one to Pakistan. If one of the 3 is on board with the sale, they can usually convince the other two, Italy in Pakistan’s case would be enough. And Germany-Pak and UK-Pak relations are positive, unlike France-Pak relations.
That being said, they totally can refuse to give what the PAF wants exactly, which would usually be the most advanced version of what they have available, which seems to be the case according to Blacklights post, this could be either to preserve their technology because they don’t fully trust Pakistan or to keep others happy. Lastly Just the fighter isn’t the issue, the missiles for it are an issue too, though an EFT armed with just Pakistan’s available AIM120C5 would be much superior than F16V and J-10C, it doesn’t make sense in the long run obviously to buy it without Meteor Or AIM120D, neither of which are easy to get, one has a French part to it and the other is American.

And no, Germany never said no to Subs for Pakistan afaik. They were very willing to sell, They said no to AIP, which was not unique to Pakistan. Their AIP tech is not offered to anyone but countries that are close to them/NATO. This was obviously a deal breaker.
Saab never said no to selling fighters to Pakistan either, they wanted to sell the gripen back when it was tested by the PAF, it was US who blocked the sale because it had 20% US components.
Yes EFT has been offered to Pakistan both by Italy and UK. Not once but several times.
 

Signalian

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2) J-10C are coming as replacement for Mirages on 1:1 ratio.


@araz Mirage III/V can not be retained till 2030 because France has stopped all associated facilities regarding parts and upgrades which makes id very difficult for PAF to maintain. This was the reason EAF Mirages were procured but those have been also stopped by the French. The only reason PAF is maintaining these is for the capability of nuclear strike but as soon as J-10C is delivered this problem would be solved.
Has J-10 been tested in China or Pakistan to carry all the arsenal that Mirages are capable of carrying ? And since J-10 carries advanced avionics than Mirages, has new upgraded weaponry (A-2-G) been decided for J-10 since some Mirage weaponry could be outdated or slated for upgrades.
 

iLION12345_1

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Yes EFT has been offered to Pakistan both by Italy and UK. Not once but several times.
You are mixing two versions of offered. They didn’t go up to Pakistan and ask if they wanted it without PAF showing any interest or showing a need for it. Pakistan or PAF aren’t that special.

They only offered to sell it when PAF showed interest, and that too not in the form PAF wanted. Multiple times, sure, but still not in the form PAF wanted. We just don’t hear that because PAFs interest is never public. PAF and other large air forces are obviously a natural target for such companies, but defense Marketing is not like regular marketing due to the indications it can give with regards to geopolitics. Not that it matters in either case, as much as I would have loved to see EFT in PAF colors, more so than any modern non-5th Gen fighter, it just wasn’t meant to be.
 

Sharma Ji

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You are mixing two versions of offered. They didn’t go up to Pakistan and ask if they wanted it without PAF showing any interest or showing a need for it. Pakistan or PAF aren’t that special.

They only offered to sell it when PAF showed interest, and that too not in the form PAF wanted. Multiple times, sure, but still not in the form PAF wanted. We just don’t hear that because PAFs interest is never public. PAF and other large air forces are obviously a natural target for such companies, but defense Marketing is not like regular marketing due to the indications it can give with regards to geopolitics. Not that it matters in either case, as much as I would have loved to see EFT in PAF colors, more so than any modern non-5th Gen fighter, it just wasn’t meant to be.
It lost out to the Rafale in Indias MMRCA competition on account of, presumably among other metrics, operational costs.
 

iLION12345_1

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It lost out to the Rafale in Indias MMRCA competition on account of, presumably among other metrics, operational costs.
That EF was actually quite a bit inferior to the current one and also the Rafale. Largely because it lacked the CAPTOR-E AESA, which in my book is basically a breakthrough when it comes to aircraft radars.

That and other improvements put the Tr4 EFT ahead of the Rafale for me. Indian requirements would be different of course. They’re meant to have similar operating costs but those costs vary wildly for countries based on their locations, needs and economies.
 

GriffinsRule

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I hope there is no J-10C induction in PAF in any number. I would rather us have 250 JF-17s over another 4th gen Chinese jet. Put the money that will be used to buy a new aircraft into AZM and JF-17 to improve it even further. There are a lot of things that can be added to the Thunder still. Spend that money towards R&D.

If there are any western aircraft coming, they will only be used ones. There are only two options, ie Eurofighter (less likely from UK) and Mirage 2000 (more likely in small numbers from Qatar and Egypt). I would have put used F-16s on here too however PAF seems to be headed away from US options so they might not even be looking to entertain those and waste time and effort.
 

iLION12345_1

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I hope there is no J-10C induction in PAF in any number. I would rather us have 250 JF-17s over another 4th gen Chinese jet. Put the money that will be used to buy a new aircraft into AZM and JF-17 to improve it even further. There are a lot of things that can be added to the Thunder still. Spend that money towards R&D.

If there are any western aircraft coming, they will only be used ones. There are only two options, ie Eurofighter (less likely from UK) and Mirage 2000 (more likely in small numbers from Qatar and Egypt). I would have put used F-16s on here too however PAF seems to be headed away from US options so they might not even be looking to entertain those and waste time and effort.
I feel it’s too late at this point, PAF seems to have made their choice, however I do hope they keep ordering more JF-17s and keep making it better, even with the J-10C purchase. It does make sense though, no matter how much you do the JF-17, it can’t do what a physically bigger aircraft like the J-10 can. Azm will happen the same regardless, it won’t come fast enough though, even with the development cycle on time, a stop-gap was needed.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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I hope there is no J-10C induction in PAF in any number. I would rather us have 250 JF-17s over another 4th gen Chinese jet. Put the money that will be used to buy a new aircraft into AZM and JF-17 to improve it even further. There are a lot of things that can be added to the Thunder still. Spend that money towards R&D.

If there are any western aircraft coming, they will only be used ones. There are only two options, ie Eurofighter (less likely from UK) and Mirage 2000 (more likely in small numbers from Qatar and Egypt). I would have put used F-16s on here too however PAF seems to be headed away from US options so they might not even be looking to entertain those and waste time and effort.
I think the PAF views the JF-17 as basically a new-age F-7/MiG-21 (even though it can be much more if we had invested more in our development capacity earlier on). It's there to train new pilots and carry point-defense/short-range ops.

For offensive operations, the PAF probably wants to move to a mix of heavy- and medium-weight fighters. It appears that the PAF thinks its new medium fighter should be the J-10CE, while the heavy (deep-strike-focused) would be AZM.

IMO the PAF's fleet vision for 2047 may be:
  • 100 AZM (induction 2037-2047)
  • 150 J-10CE (induction 2022-2032)
  • 50 JF-17 Block-III
  • 26 JF-17B
  • 4~6 new tankers
IMO after Swift Retort, I think the PAF genuinely believes that a hard-hitting offensive capability (i.e., most of its fleet) is a must. They'll have a list of targets they need to hit within 18~24 hours, pray it works and stops India from fighting, or go atomic. The J-10CEs and AZMs would fly near or across the border and deploy SOWs en-masse.

My preference would've been to steer AZM towards a twin-engine medium-weight fighter tailored for RD-93MA (but we try to develop our own with Turkey and Ukraine). We think along the lines of one mainstay fighter plus UCAVs and loyal wingmen.

I think picking up the FC-31 and completing its development in Pakistan (independently of J-35) would've been good. Yes, high-risk, but not more so than what we're trying with AZM. Plus with China's lead work and support, we could potentially start the production process in 2030.

Bilal's 2047 fleet:
  • 280 AZM (twin-engine 24,000 kg)
  • ???? UCAVs (single-engine, using the same powerplant as AZM)
  • ???? UTAS (loyal wingman UAVs with a 3-4 kN powerplant built at home)
  • 4~6 A330s we mod with the UPAZ AAR pods with Ukraine
  • 4~6 new AEW&C using Erieye-ER and E190-E2
 
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iLION12345_1

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I think the PAF views the JF-17 as basically a new-age F-7/MiG-21 (even though it can be much more if we had invested more in our development capacity earlier on). It's there to train new pilots and carry point-defense/short-range ops.

For offensive operations, the PAF probably wants to move to a mix of heavy- and medium-weight fighters. It appears that the PAF thinks its new medium fighter should be the J-10CE, while the heavy (deep-strike-focused) would be AZM.

IMO the PAF's fleet vision for 2047 may be:
  • 100 AZM (induction 2037-2047)
  • 150 J-10CE (induction 2022-2032)
  • 50 JF-17 Block-III
  • 26 JF-17B
  • 4~6 new tankers
IMO after Swift Retort, I think the PAF genuinely believes that a hard-hitting offensive capability (i.e., most of its fleet) is a must. They'll have a list of targets they need to hit within 18~24 hours, pray it works and stops India from fighting, or go atomic. The J-10CEs and AZMs would fly near or across the border and deploy SOWs en-masse.

My preference would've been to steer AZM towards a twin-engine medium-weight fighter tailored for RD-93MA (but we try to develop our own with Turkey and Ukraine). We think along the lines of one mainstay fighter plus UCAVs and loyal wingmen.

I think picking up the FC-31 and completing its development in Pakistan (independently of J-35) would've been good. Yes, high-risk, but not more so than what we're trying with AZM. Plus with China's lead work and support, we could potentially start the production process in 2030.

Bilal's 2047 fleet:
  • 280 AZM (twin-engine 24,000 kg)
  • ???? UCAVs (single-engine, using the same powerplant as AZM)
  • ???? UTAS (loyal wingman UAVs with a 3-4 kN powerplant built at home)
  • 4~6 A330s we mod with the UPAZ AAR pods with Ukraine
  • 4~6 new AEW&C using Erieye-ER and E190-E2
Do you think they will get that many J-10C? Maybe there’s an angle to it I’m not seeing but I’ve been thinking they’ve got just a few squadrons on their mind, as in they’re not getting them to replace all the mirages/F7s.
 

Zarvan

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Do you think they will get that many J-10C? Maybe there’s an angle to it I’m not seeing but I’ve been thinking they’ve got just a few squadrons on their mind, as in they’re not getting them to replace all the mirages/F7s.
If we see J-10 as replacement for Mirgaes which in my opinion should be the case then yes.
 

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