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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

GriffinsRule

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J-10 will not be the "Offensive" punch that hits harder than the current F-16s. That is living in a fantasy world.
Esp when considering the next 30-40 years, not the right now mentality.
The next fighter PAF acquires will have to face upgraded IAF and their 5th gen fighter, all against which I would not pit J-10 against.
If we are just looking to get 40-60 top of the line fighters, outside of the latest versions of Rafale/Typhoon/F-15s the best bet would be to go for 5th gen or at least a LO 4.5gen design like what the Koreans have or what AZM envisions.
 

KaiserX

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Err, the 6bn figure is not JUST for subs, it includes 4 Type 054a's. Alongside that, you are comparing apples to oranges, Submarines are literally Pakistans second strike weapon, its most survivable nuclear delivery platform and also its most feared A2/AD asset.

May i remind you that the navy is tasked with protecting a significant sum of the countries economy through the ports, without a well thought out A2/AD strategy like the PN is embarking on now, we would just have a repeat of '71 where the coastline is going to get hammered.

Alongside this, you are acting as if the country paid out of its pocket as opposed to taking on a loan from China. This is something that can be repeated again anyway, the Chinese will happily loan more money for Aircraft and SAMs. So your point is flawed.

Further, IDK where you get the need for 6 systems from TBH, having a well thought out IADS consisting of 3-4 Long range SAM batteries, which should be sufficient to provide coverage over the country, with shorter ranged coverage provided by HQ-16 and then FM-90/SPADA, that should be more than sufficient, especially when paired with a high concentration of fighters positioned on the border with sufficient supporting assets.

The need for "60 J-10s" also seems to be pulled out of thin air aswell, there IS a need for a platform capable of countering the Rafale through superior sensors and firepower, is the J-10 the answer? MAYBE, we have no idea in regards to its sensors and capabilities, we just know theyre probably better than the JF-17B3, not by a whole lot, but they are. The problem with the J-10C is where does it fit in the PAF though?? Do we want an IAF like situation where neither aircraft are able to communicate with eachother? Do we want to have the J-10s not be able to link to ERIEYES or other aircraft? Alongside this, an order of 60 aircraft- at almost $5bn usd is not a decision that can be taken as a 'stop gap' measure, thats a significant sunk cost and not the entire picture either, this does not include other costs that would need to be undertaken for the PAF to take on J-10Cs.

Payload wise, while YES, the J-10C CAN carry more munitions, its not certified for them and nor is there as wide of an array of munitions as there is for the JF-17 with the J-10, in terms of A2A loadout, thats something that CAN be replicated by the JF-17, with BOTH aircraft being CAPABLE of carrying 4 BVRAAMs with 2 SRAAMs, the JF-17 does this through dual racks which arent used as of now to preserve airframe life but CAN be employed as needed, as the JF-17 is certified for it. Certification and intergration of the munitions will add further cost and time to the J-10 induction.

At the end of the day, the best answer to the Mirages RIGHT NOW is the Mirages, yes, they are old, yes, theyre nearing the end of their life, but there is no PRESSING need to replace them, they are able to conduct their mission effectively and better than anything else available to the PAF. To draw parallels, the youngest B52s in USAF service are 55+ years old. Of course, there ARE other aircaft that can do their missions, BUT as of now, theres no PRESSING need to replace them, they fulfill their role sufficiently.

At the end of the day, the BEST mirage replacement is a 5th generation fighter which will naturally be the successor in the strike role due to its superior capability to penetrate airspace, at the cost of payload of course. The J-10C is IDEAL to replace F-16s, but even that is ONLY if other western fighters are off of the table, which is not something that we can say for sure. However, spending 2x the cost of a JF-17 B3 on one J-10 seems like a pretty poor value proposition especially when you wont really get significantly better performance from the J-10- presumably atleast, especially when it comes to sensors.

TL;DR

J-10s probably not an amazing idea, buy more JF-17B3s, alongside this, keep mirages in service and replace them with a 5th gen strike fighter when available, 6bn on 8 subs and 4 ships is not a waste of money and is infact a very important buy and should be expanded. SAM need is there but not to the extent as it is made out to be, IDK, just read what i wrote, its actually kind of useful tbh.
Not an offence punch compared to the F16? you gotta be joking me. Our F16s are severely limited due to their incapability to be refueled with our current aerial tankers. The J10 would not have that disability. Furthermore the J10 could very easily be equipped with the Raad cruise missile/ H2/H4 glide bombs, and other indiginous weapons we produce in the future. Something once again we havnt been able to do with the F16s to do this. Lastly to even compare there electronics would be a joke. The J10 is atleast 2 decades ahead in AESA RADAR, EW SUITE, Pilot situational awareness, etc... The US navy itself considered the J10A a major threat to its latest Super Hornet and your here telling me F16mlus are better than the J10C :D

Problem is when your air force goes your whole countries goes. Not much a submarine can do at that point. Relying on a few submarine launch cruise missiles equipped with nukes is not that much of a deterrent against an enemy like india. For that the only and first most priority are our fighter jets/missiles (cruise & ballistic).

Its laughable that you think the Mirages are best for the ground strike role in this day and age. At this point we are risking the lives of our pilots being the only air force in the world to still fly 50s era french jets. God knows how the mirages would actually perform in a real modern war theatre. 60 J-10s as a stop gap would provide the PAF more capabilities than the 90s era F16s equipped with obsolete AMRAAMS. The J10 has a radar range of 200+ and the PL15 to back it up. PAF has equipped its JF17s to the eireyes you think such a huge investment was made in awacs so that they would be unable to communicate? That in itself is a minimal issue. From a higher level id much rather have 50 J10s do the job than 200 Mirages 3/5s since they could do any mission far more effectively. The cost of retiring such a hard to maintain aircraft would pay for itself long term.
 

StructE

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China fields J-10 jets powered by homemade engine (defensenews.com)


The confirmation of J-10s powered by an indigenous engine represents a key milestone for China’s aviation industry, and it suggests China is now satisfied by the performance and reliability of the WS-10. China has been testing the engine on the J-10 since at least 2011, with the engine seen on J-10B and J-10C test bed aircraft belonging to the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, although the engines were not seen on production aircraft until the fourth production batch of J-10Cs in 2019.
It’s unknown when these initial aircraft with WS-10 engines were delivered to the PLAAF. China does not routinely publicize such milestones, although Andreas Rupprecht, who has authored several books on Chinese military aviation, believes a Shantou-based PLAAF brigade was the first to receive the aircraft.
 

GriffinsRule

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Not an offence punch compared to the F16? you gotta be joking me. Our F16s are severely limited due to their incapability to be refueled with our current aerial tankers. The J10 would not have that disability. Furthermore the J10 could very easily be equipped with the Raad cruise missile/ H2/H4 glide bombs, and other indiginous weapons we produce in the future. Something once again we havnt been able to do with the F16s to do this. Lastly to even compare there electronics would be a joke. The J10 is atleast 2 decades ahead in AESA RADAR, EW SUITE, Pilot situational awareness, etc... The US navy itself considered the J10A a major threat to its latest Super Hornet and your here telling me F16mlus are better than the J10C :D

Problem is when your air force goes your whole countries goes. Not much a submarine can do at that point. Relying on a few submarine launch cruise missiles equipped with nukes is not that much of a deterrent against an enemy like india. For that the only and first most priority are our fighter jets/missiles (cruise & ballistic).

Its laughable that you think the Mirages are best for the ground strike role in this day and age. At this point we are risking the lives of our pilots being the only air force in the world to still fly 50s era french jets. God knows how the mirages would actually perform in a real modern war theatre. 60 J-10s as a stop gap would provide the PAF more capabilities than the 90s era F16s equipped with obsolete AMRAAMS. The J10 has a radar range of 200+ and the PL15 to back it up. PAF has equipped its JF17s to the eireyes you think such a huge investment was made in awacs so that they would be unable to communicate? That in itself is a minimal issue. From a higher level id much rather have 50 J10s do the job than 200 Mirages 3/5s since they could do any mission far more effectively. The cost of retiring such a hard to maintain aircraft would pay for itself long term.
I stand by my comments.
 

Iceman2

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What you consider window shopping, is actually an exercise in intel gathering. I for one actually appreciate the fact that they dont rely only on published literature, but actually try to gather as much intel as possible directly from the horses mouth i.e. the OEM's.

In-case an adversary operates said system in the future, it gives them a fairly good idea of what to expect, and therefore prepare to counter from today.

Rest assured, in due time, through official channels, the rest of your concerns will also be addressed.
Bhai time frame bata do 1 2 6 months so that we put it to rest
 

The Raven

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Why did the KFX (KF-21) come into this discussion?! Is the PAF meant to consider every fighter under the sun?! Why not the APK-FA and F-22 as well, or maybe X-Wing class and TIE Fighters?! @Deino you were so right!
 

ziaulislam

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Not an offence punch compared to the F16? you gotta be joking me. Our F16s are severely limited due to their incapability to be refueled with our current aerial tankers. The J10 would not have that disability. Furthermore the J10 could very easily be equipped with the Raad cruise missile/ H2/H4 glide bombs, and other indiginous weapons we produce in the future. Something once again we havnt been able to do with the F16s to do this. Lastly to even compare there electronics would be a joke. The J10 is atleast 2 decades ahead in AESA RADAR, EW SUITE, Pilot situational awareness, etc... The US navy itself considered the J10A a major threat to its latest Super Hornet and your here telling me F16mlus are better than the J10C :D

Problem is when your air force goes your whole countries goes. Not much a submarine can do at that point. Relying on a few submarine launch cruise missiles equipped with nukes is not that much of a deterrent against an enemy like india. For that the only and first most priority are our fighter jets/missiles (cruise & ballistic).

Its laughable that you think the Mirages are best for the ground strike role in this day and age. At this point we are risking the lives of our pilots being the only air force in the world to still fly 50s era french jets. God knows how the mirages would actually perform in a real modern war theatre. 60 J-10s as a stop gap would provide the PAF more capabilities than the 90s era F16s equipped with obsolete AMRAAMS. The J10 has a radar range of 200+ and the PL15 to back it up. PAF has equipped its JF17s to the eireyes you think such a huge investment was made in awacs so that they would be unable to communicate? That in itself is a minimal issue. From a higher level id much rather have 50 J10s do the job than 200 Mirages 3/5s since they could do any mission far more effectively. The cost of retiring such a hard to maintain aircraft would pay for itself long term.
The problem isnt lack of strike plateform(mirages with raad and REK) or a AESA multirole jet(jf17)
Problem is threat environment

We are underestimating the s400&rafale combo and possible f35 coming to indian navy

Pakistan needs to think like it always have ..get a qualitative edge not an equalizer

It needs to talk to get an off the shelf 5th fighter with china

Now if f16 fleet becomes inoperable then yes a stop gap fighter might work but otherwise PAF must think of post 2027 threats not threats of today only
 

Blacklight

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Why did the KFX (KF-21) come into this discussion?! Is the PAF meant to consider every fighter under the sun?! Why not the APK-FA and F-22 as well, or maybe X-Wing class and TIE Fighters?! @Deino you were so right!
On this particular thread, you both are wrong. This is a dedicated thread for people to discuss what could possibly suit PAF, as per "them", i.e. members. Hence they are free to suggest whatever rationale suits them.

As to the KF-21, it was suggested by a member that PAF will look / evaluate, and not buy, so at least read properly before getting on your high horse.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @The Eagle @LeGenD please feel free to add, and kindly lets keep these silly condescending posts / posters out of this thread. Send them get back on their high horse, and get them to approve atleast a $1 procurement, before they come back and ridicule respectable members.
 

The Raven

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On this particular thread, you both are wrong. This is a dedicated thread for people to discuss what could possibly suit PAF, as per "them", i.e. members. Hence they are free to suggest whatever rationale suits them.

As to the KF-21, it was suggested by a member that PAF will look / evaluate, and not buy, so at least read properly before getting on your high horse.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @The Eagle @LeGenD please feel free to add, and kindly lets keep these silly condescending posts / posters out of this thread. Send them get back on their high horse, and get them to approve atleast a $1 procurement, before they come back and ridicule respectable members.
There's a significant difference between discussing potential acquisitions by the PAF that fit within the realms of reality and pure speculation based on the whims of fantasy. But some posters don't have the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy due to cognitive dissonance and their egos, for example, claiming not so long ago that Block-72s, J-15/16s, and J-10s have somehow magically appeared in Pakistan overnight, or that the PAF operates the Erieye ER when in fact it does not as the UAE was the launch customer, etc etc. But do please go ahead with your fantasies and whatever it is you're smoking for the sake of your ego.
 

m52k85

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People who cant understand what a J10 brings to the table, need to understand this statement, without throwing logistics, training, finance, and their girl friends menstrual cycle into the mix, and muddying the waters.

An overly simplistic statement would be that the J10 is a Mirage 5 + JF17 B3, rolled into one.
Sir, why is the J-10 a Mirage and Jf17 B3 rolled into one?

Where does it excel? Low altitude penetration, super cruise, AA payload, radar detection range etc?

Open source figures put the range and payload of J10 in the same category of Jf17.

Thanks
 

Blacklight

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There's a significant difference between discussing potential acquisitions by the PAF that fit within the realms of reality and pure speculation based on the whims of fantasy. But some posters don't have the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy due to cognitive dissonance and their egos, for example, claiming not so long ago that Block-72s, J-15/16s, and J-10s have somehow magically appeared in Pakistan overnight, or that the PAF operates the Erieye ER when in fact it does not as the UAE was the launch customer, etc etc. But do please go ahead with your fantasies and whatever it is you're smoking for the sake of your ego.
Now you are just ranting like the clueless keyboard warrior you are.
 

imranyounus

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From last few months we are hearing talk of J 11/16.

While it looked the least expected option keeping in view copyright constraint on China. But the theory going round is that Russian wants to sell SU 35 but due to india pressure might settle for allowing China to sell J 16.

If this hypothesis is correct than it could be most practical option. the point being buying J 10 won't give any additional capabilities. its at most is going to be equal to a next block of F 16. essentially a medium size fighter.

So if you are going to buy some thing new and developing a new infrastructure. Than why not get some thing that gives you a new capabilities.
 

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