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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

SABRE

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You are confusing f16A with not only f16c but also with f16 viper

A good example is how useless eygptian f16 with aim 7 sparrow are
I will call eygptian f16s as waste of resource and libaility /tool to control EAF rather then anything it can use against it regional powers
I was not confusing anything but providing a general view. But going into particularities, yes, there is substance to what you said. Essentially, the airframe designed by GD is somewhat inferior to the LM's redesign airframe. Although, GD's original design is more lighter, agile & with better manoeuvrability (this doesn't mean that LM's C/D are inferior in these areas though). Egyptian F-16 are trash because the U.S. refuses to sell them AIM-120 AMRAAM & accordingly upgrade its F-16s to carry the missile. Yes, it is by and large a useless asset for fighting against formidable adversaries with state of the art air forces. But then again, when does Egypt actually plan to fight such adversaries? They have gone for costly Rafale and further acquired MiG-29s but are likely to treat the former as Ferrari and later as a workhorse that does little outside of Egypt. On the other hand, we have Republic of China (Taiwan) Air Force that operates Blk 20 A/B and are integrated with AMRAAM to the best of my knowledge.
 

Trailer23

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Its a well known fact that Italians with the assistance of the Russians built the Leonardo M-345 (then Alenia Aermacchi) which is great in various roles like Light Attack and LIFT.

My question is, now what has Leonardo have for a next step?

The M-346 could have been the best Light Attack/Trainer in the market, before Boeing/Saab's new T-7 (Red Hawk) came into the picture. Honestly, I rank it higher than LM/Korea's T-50 (Golden Eagle).

Pakistan has a great thing going on with China with the JF-17. Who knows what to expect down the road - maybe some J-10's. Maybe J-35's - if they're made available to us.

My point is, we seem to have a pretty decent relationship with the Italians with them opening up an office for Leonardo in Islamabad.

Which brings me back to my original question. Why can't we do the exact same with Italy (Leonardo) what we did with China (CATIC/AVIC)?

We should bring some of the smaller markets (Leonardo, Antonov and even Embrear) togther and work on something together.
 

denel

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Its a well known fact that Italians with the assistance of the Russians built the Leonardo M-345 (then Alenia Aermacchi) which is great in various roles like Light Attack and LIFT.

My question is, now what has Leonardo have for a next step?

The M-346 could have been the best Light Attack/Trainer in the market, before Boeing/Saab's new T-7 (Red Hawk) came into the picture. Honestly, I rank it higher than LM/Korea's T-50 (Golden Eagle).

Pakistan has a great thing going on with China with the JF-17. Who knows what to expect down the road - maybe some J-10's. Maybe J-35's - if they're made available to us.

My point is, we seem to have a pretty decent relationship with the Italians with them opening up an office for Leonardo in Islamabad.

Which brings me back to my original question. Why can't we do the exact same with Italy (Leonardo) what we did with China (CATIC/AVIC)?

We should bring some of the smaller markets (Leonardo, Antonov and even Embrear) togther and work on something together.
That requires a lot of $$$ what you are proposing. As always Pak needed to cultivate strategic relationships with Brazil/RSA/Italy. If we look back - AMX program may have been an excellent participation to name a few. Similarly had Pak pooled with Brazil for Gripen ITAR free - Saab would have bent backwards.

Anyway food for thought.
 

Trailer23

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That requires a lot of $$$ what you are proposing....AMX program may have been an excellent participation to name a few.
Certainly i'm not suggesting that it would be a walk in the park - as far as finances are concerned. However, it certainly isn't impossible.

Pakistan's financial woes are more Government-related, but the Military have a budget of their own which doesn't reflect what really goes on in the Country.

As for the AMX program. Lost opportunity, but the JF-17 Program wasn't a walk in the park either. A lot of blood n' sweat, along with back breaking went into it and we've got a jet of our own.
Similarly had Pak pooled with Brazil for Gripen ITAR free - Saab would have bent backwards.
Don't be too sure about that. Back in the early 2000's, when the (then) President Pervez Musharraf had gone on a trip visiting the Scandinavian Countries, while he was still Norway, he got word that the (then) Defense Minister of Sweden had candidly stated that no weapons system would be sold to Pakistan.
 

Irfan Baloch

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Its a well known fact that Italians with the assistance of the Russians built the Leonardo M-345 (then Alenia Aermacchi) which is great in various roles like Light Attack and LIFT.

My question is, now what has Leonardo have for a next step?

The M-346 could have been the best Light Attack/Trainer in the market, before Boeing/Saab's new T-7 (Red Hawk) came into the picture. Honestly, I rank it higher than LM/Korea's T-50 (Golden Eagle).

Pakistan has a great thing going on with China with the JF-17. Who knows what to expect down the road - maybe some J-10's. Maybe J-35's - if they're made available to us.

My point is, we seem to have a pretty decent relationship with the Italians with them opening up an office for Leonardo in Islamabad.

Which brings me back to my original question. Why can't we do the exact same with Italy (Leonardo) what we did with China (CATIC/AVIC)?

We should bring some of the smaller markets (Leonardo, Antonov and even Embrear) togther and work on something together.
for Italians there is immediate market inside Pakistan from the armed forces and maybe a limited private sector. but it should be beyond that. the business model should be such that can be sold to the Italians that setting up production here is cost effective and useful to attract the market in the region and beyond.

we have to think from their point of view. they know Pakistan will benefit the most in terms of ToT and learning the manufacturing and all the science behind it but it must be rewarding to them more than their current setup in Italy and elsewhere to convince them to spend millions here.
What was the reason? Was it because of US origin components?
maybe American pressure, maybe Swedish own policy of not selling to countries in conflict zone or maybe they were eyeing the MMRCA deal worth billions of dollars with India and due to possible Indian pressure they refused us.
they let our PAF people ride the plane but yes they said they cant sell these jets.
 

SABRE

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What was the reason? Was it because of US origin components?
I once had a word with SAAB Aviation's spoke. He said PAF never really approached them for Gripen. This is something difficult to believe, but it may be that PAF never 'officially' tendered a purchase request with the Swedish govt &/or SAAB, regardless of the fact that they may have thoroughly evaluated the aircraft.
 

alphapak

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I once had a word with SAAB Aviation's spoke. He said PAF never really approached them for Gripen. This is something difficult to believe, but it may be that PAF never 'officially' tendered a purchase request with the Swedish govt &/or SAAB, regardless of the fact that they may have thoroughly evaluated the aircraft.
Its a good job PAF did not go for Gripen, otherwise we would of had 2 sanction prone fighters.
Best thing PAF done was to make JF17 thunders.
 

denel

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Certainly i'm not suggesting that it would be a walk in the park - as far as finances are concerned. However, it certainly isn't impossible.

Pakistan's financial woes are more Government-related, but the Military have a budget of their own which doesn't reflect what really goes on in the Country.

As for the AMX program. Lost opportunity, but the JF-17 Program wasn't a walk in the park either. A lot of blood n' sweat, along with back breaking went into it and we've got a jet of our own.

Don't be too sure about that. Back in the early 2000's, when the (then) President Pervez Musharraf had gone on a trip visiting the Scandinavian Countries, while he was still Norway, he got word that the (then) Defense Minister of Sweden had candidly stated that no weapons system would be sold to Pakistan.
You still fail to get my discussion point. As a collective, ITAR free way plus collaboration with R&D with Embraer was the way.

For JF-17 - I beg to differ it remains an assembly; still no true R&D is done in house for the next version etc.
 

Signalian

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What people fail to releaze that defense acquisition is planned 10 years ahead
F16b52(1st built in mid 1990s) are going to be a "samosa" in 2030(35 yrs from developement, 25 years since we signed the deal).. just like the indian mig21

Anyone who believe otherwise has no grip on reality..yes 25 years from acquisition and 35 years from development is long time..its not b52 bomber that it will last 100years

Now block70 with its aranaments is different aircraft which isnt available to pakistan
We don't know yet if by 2030's, PAF's F-16s are still in 2010 configuration or have been upgraded. Also if newer ones have been bought or older ones retired. However if PAF believes that Block52+ and Block-15 MLU are suitable for service in 2030's in same configs, while other aircrafts like JF-17 Block III and possible J-10 complement them, then its related to PAF's expertise in the domain of air warfare for drawing such a conclusion. F-16 itself is designed to have a long service life due to versatile upgrades.
 
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