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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Falcon26

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Yep because that's what India wants. However, we need to be honest with ourselves, exactly who in the entire Pakistani population cares about any of that stuff? Your concerns are 110% correct, but it's only people on this forum and a few other individuals voicing them regularly.

However, Pakistanis as a whole usually don't think that far ahead or in that much depth.

We always get bit and find out about the infection later, e.g., the poor state of Karachi, the rise of the MQMs and TTPs, how we went into Kashmir 34 years too early in 1965, how we handled the East Pakistan crisis, or heck, how we let Fawad Alam play like 5-7 years after his prime. Pakistan is literally that kid who has a tumour in his thigh, but doesn't tell anyone about it until some other kid kicks him near there.

This is our nature.

@SQ8 @Signalian @Falcon26 @The Eagle
Great analogy.

Pakistan is really a suicidal state, you can’t save a suicidal person. You might try to reason with them and buy some time, but ultimately, the suicidal person makes the fatal decision.
 

The Eagle

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Great analogy.

Pakistan is really a suicidal state, you can’t save a suicidal person. You might try to reason with them and buy some time, but ultimately, the suicidal person makes the fatal decision.
Being said since 1947 but still we are. Let's not prelude like that. It is in-fact, very offensive & disrespectful.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Being said since 1947 but still we are. Let's not prelude like that. It is in-fact, very offensive & disrespectful.
To be fair to @Falcon26, he's saying something different.

Since 1947, we've had others naysay us. But from 1947 to 1977, our leaders and population had a killer instinct that helped us develop rapidly. It helped us earn respect from the US, UK, China, Soviets, French, Middle East, etc.

However, after 1977, that instinct gradually died out...

Perhaps it was the exodus of our educated class to the Middle East (and later the West). Perhaps it was a rise in systemic corruption. But I don't think we as a society have that instinct right now. Otherwise, we would've made sure CPEC was our Marshall Plan, not an iffy undersell. Likewise, Kashmir wouldn't have been about India annexing it, but rather, India going to the Security Council to get Pakistani troops out of Srinigar.
 

Falcon26

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To be fair to @Falcon26, he's saying something different.

Since 1947, we've had others naysay us. But from 1947 to 1977, our leaders and population had a killer instinct that helped us develop rapidly. It helped us earn respect from the US, UK, China, Soviets, French, Middle East, etc.

However, after 1977, that instinct gradually died out...

Perhaps it was the exodus of our educated class to the Middle East (and later the West). Perhaps it was a rise in systemic corruption. But I don't think we as a society have that instinct right now. Otherwise, we would've made sure CPEC was our Marshall Plan, not an iffy undersell. Likewise, Kashmir wouldn't have been about India annexing it, but rather, India going to the Security Council to get Pakistani troops out of Srinigar.
Thanks.

My point was related to the planning culture in Pakistan, and not anything else.
 

ziaulislam

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There would have been some sort of official announcement if it had not only already been selected for purchase, but even the squadrons would have been decided upon.

Bandit, Bogey etc are also how intruding enemy air is referred to.. unless there is also PAF Bandit squadron insignia on the model, is there ?

I'd say the highest probability is that the model represents a souvenir? (if you will) marking an exercise where these Chinese jets obviously played the role of 'bandits' simulating the threat from Indian air.
Pakistan will never disclose j10 buying unless the sale is done and the arrival happens

india announced MRCA in 2002, sale was finalized in 2015. took 5 years to delivery

for pakistan once j10 lands or about to land the deal will be announced

no this doesnt mean pakistan is buying j10, it simply means we dont know
 

KaiserX

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There is a complete lack of planning in the PAF but that is mostly due to the politicians. That has changed in the last few years with the govt and PAF giving more focus to domestic/ chinese products.

first we had the f-16 obsession that led to sanctions, then we had the whole saga with the Mirage-2000s that ended in a corruption scandal. Followed by this we once again enteted the f-16 obsessiom to which an earth quake caused us to downsize significantly from 75 to 18. Followed by another 5 year talk of the j-10. Total from 1988-2012 we had 2+ decades wasted due to the lack of planning.

During this period the 1 bright spot was the Jf-17 program fot which we got the very capable block 2/3 which can compete fairly against the vipers. Now that we are once again eyeing the J-10 its beggs the question... why couldnt the PAF have just gone with the J-10 to begin with and produced them in Pakistan as well? Word was that China initially offered Pakistan participation in the J-10/Lavi program. Sure it would be alittle more investment upfront but we would have a lot more cabilities today plus would not be reliant once again.

I am sure the PAF is taking all these lessons and considerations into Project AZM and for now the J-10c is only a stop gap option. Also one big point to ponder is that the Chinese seem to be guiding the PAFs requirements far more and that itself should give confidence.
 

GriffinsRule

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There is a complete lack of planning in the PAF but that is mostly due to the politicians. That has changed in the last few years with the govt and PAF giving more focus to domestic/ chinese products.

first we had the f-16 obsession that led to sanctions, then we had the whole saga with the Mirage-2000s that ended in a corruption scandal. Followed by this we once again enteted the f-16 obsessiom to which an earth quake caused us to downsize significantly from 75 to 18. Followed by another 5 year talk of the j-10. Total from 1988-2012 we had 2+ decades wasted due to the lack of planning.

During this period the 1 bright spot was the Jf-17 program fot which we got the very capable block 2/3 which can compete fairly against the vipers. Now that we are once again eyeing the J-10 its beggs the question... why couldnt the PAF have just gone with the J-10 to begin with and produced them in Pakistan as well? Word was that China initially offered Pakistan participation in the J-10/Lavi program. Sure it would be alittle more investment upfront but we would have a lot more cabilities today plus would not be reliant once again.

I am sure the PAF is taking all these lessons and considerations into Project AZM and for now the J-10c is only a stop gap option. Also one big point to ponder is that the Chinese seem to be guiding the PAFs requirements far more and that itself should give confidence.
Because J-10A were shit aircraft with structural and other issues.
 

Salman Baig

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Few questions really bothers me.

1- Assume Pakistan acquires J10C. Will it won't affect the JF blk3 international market? As more or less these two platforms are same generation planes with quite similar specs.

2- Blk3 and J10C almost has a same price tag. But till date j10c didn't find any international foreign customers. So Airforces are seeing some shortcomings in J10C so that's why no one acquired it yet.

3- May be Chinese want to benefit from our F16 experience and remove shortcoming which are making it uninterested platform for international customers. And for that particular reason they might be interested in opening some joint venture on J10C. So may be it's not us who are more keen in j10c but Chinese? So instead of paying in cash we might b paying in form of knowledge sharing and certain numbers of these jets will be coming absolutly free in terms of spending cash?
 

KaiserX

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Few questions really bothers me.

1- Assume Pakistan acquires J10C. Will it won't affect the JF blk3 international market? As more or less these two platforms are same generation planes with quite similar specs.

2- Blk3 and J10C almost has a same price tag. But till date j10c didn't find any international foreign customers. So Airforces are seeing some shortcomings in J10C so that's why no one acquired it yet.

3- May be Chinese want to benefit from our F16 experience and remove shortcoming which are making it uninterested platform for international customers. And for that particular reason they might be interested in opening some joint venture on J10C. So may be it's not us who are more keen in j10c but Chinese? So instead of paying in cash we might b paying in form of knowledge sharing and certain numbers of these jets will be coming absolutly free in terms of spending cash?
I am sure that if Pakistan goes for a sizeable order of 50 J-10s then they would come heavily subsidized and at good terms.

The PAF has tested the J10 since atleast 2005. The C version is the final refined product of something that meets or exceeds the capabilities of the latest viper.

Look at the top notch F-16s today ie Israeli F16i and the UAE f16 block 60. The J-10C with its long range aesa and its Pl-15 can wipe the floor them.

Even a few years ago the US labelled the J-10b as a major threat to the aesa equiped f18 super hornet and in war games calculated that they would face major losses just from the SD-10.
 

araz

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Because J-10A were shit aircraft with structural and other issues.
Could you elaborate it a bit more.
Regards
A
I am sure that if Pakistan goes for a sizeable order of 50 J-10s then they would come heavily subsidized and at good terms.

The PAF has tested the J10 since atleast 2005. The C version is the final refined product of something that meets or exceeds the capabilities of the latest viper.

Look at the top notch F-16s today ie Israeli F16i and the UAE f16 block 60. The J-10C with its long range aesa and its Pl-15 can wipe the floor them.

Even a few years ago the US labelled the J-10b as a major threat to the aesa equiped f18 super hornet and in war games calculated that they would face major losses just from the SD-10.
I dont think the J10s give us that much superiority over the 16s otherwise we would have bought them much earlier instead of running after the US for more 16s.
US analysts often create a bit of hype about the adversary armaments to incite their own government into spending more on defence. However the PL 15 AESA combo remains a significant but untested threat to their air assetts.
Regards
A
 
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pakpride00090

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To be fair to @Falcon26, he's saying something different.

Since 1947, we've had others naysay us. But from 1947 to 1977, our leaders and population had a killer instinct that helped us develop rapidly. It helped us earn respect from the US, UK, China, Soviets, French, Middle East, etc.

However, after 1977, that instinct gradually died out...

Perhaps it was the exodus of our educated class to the Middle East (and later the West). Perhaps it was a rise in systemic corruption. But I don't think we as a society have that instinct right now. Otherwise, we would've made sure CPEC was our Marshall Plan, not an iffy undersell. Likewise, Kashmir wouldn't have been about India annexing it, but rather, India going to the Security Council to get Pakistani troops out of Srinigar.
However, after 1977, that instinct gradually died out...

one line :- Exodus of Muhajirs by implementing Quota system because natives got insecure.


Muhajirs.png
 

GriffinsRule

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Could you elaborate it a bit more.
Regards
A
Structural issues with the A models, issues with engines and software that led to a lot of crashes earlier on. It was also their first domestic aircraft with FBW. And at the time of its induction, it was barely on par with block 15 F-16s in terms of electronics as well behind in terms of offensive armaments. It took the Chinese almost another two decades of advances in their local industry to get it to where it is now. So I think PAF rightfully so did not go for the original version back in the day.
It did however take a serious look at it, and was not impressed, and gave its feedback to the Chinese, some of which they must've taken. Shaahid Lateef hinted towards that in one of his own interviews as well.
 

mingle

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Structural issues with the A models, issues with engines and software that led to a lot of crashes earlier on. It was also their first domestic aircraft with FBW. And at the time of its induction, it was barely on par with block 15 F-16s in terms of electronics as well behind in terms of offensive armaments. It took the Chinese almost another two decades of advances in their local industry to get it to where it is now. So I think PAF rightfully so did not go for the original version back in the day.
It did however take a serious look at it, and was not impressed, and gave its feedback to the Chinese, some of which they must've taken. Shaahid Lateef hinted towards that in one of his own interviews as well.
I remember I read on old PDF by Haris or Usman PAF wasn't happy with Russian engine
 

CIA Mole

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I feel like PAF only needs blk3's, drones, and SAM's to deal with indians.

It's not like we can afford anythign else
 

-=virus=-

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Found this on my son's desk in his room

I didn't even know he liked Starwars and now the little shits gone out and bought a Millennium falcon 🤬

View attachment 711196
I got the joke but Star Wars is super cool, you should encourage your wee one to watch the original trilogy and to later get an Airfix model of the millennium falcon and put it together. It's a fun thing to get into but takes real skill to to make t hem look good, the models.

Who wouldn't want this on their desk ? 8-)

1611909385133.png
 

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