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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

SQ8

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Most of the respected members use a term "gap".

If we are considering qualitative or quantitative gap between PAF and IAF capabilities, then on papers IAF has the upper edge. However, the ground reality is "apparently" different. At present, PAF has enough fire power to bring IAF into its knees.

The average availability of air platform is more than enough even for Mirages and older F-16s.

Turn around time is low, hence PAF can generate sufficient number of sorties per day.

Almost all air bases 1000 km away from Pakistani border can be targeted and neutralized as soon as possible.

If gap is in the "type or capability" of air platform PAF have, then in my opinion, after induction of JF-17 Block 3, PAF will have sufficient capability of 4+ gen jet fighter aircraft. Therefore as stated earlier PAF may stick to their plan about considering induction of 5 gen aircraft instead of another 4+ gen aircraft.
I disagree on the bold part - modern HAS and runway repair teams/redundancies make neutralizing a difficult task. Temporary halt of operations is more realistic.
Additionally, mission success rate for such an endeavor revolves around having a strike fighter capable of fighting its way in and getting out. Escorts and support assets make that easier but it still doesn’t help when the survivability of the primary strike asset(M3/5) isn’t very high.

There is a strong reason why the PAF even with access to F-16’s wanted the M2k, then settled for the J-10.
 

GriffinsRule

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Goritoes

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There is a strong reason why the PAF even with access to F-16’s wanted the M2k, then settled for the J-10.
settled? maybe PAF is waiting for IAF to resign from the Rafale deal? the batch they got will take years to be fully integrated+training+Strategies. Rafale was turned into some sort of savior in India after Modi gives a desperate shout out " Ager Rafale hota tu nateeja kuch aur hota " after 27th Feb, I wonder how worried PAF is about the purchase of Rafale. J-10CE if bought will somehow put that to rest they knew their existing fleet needs a new fighter to match the Rafale .
 

arjunk

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Money is always a problem. Funds has to be raised. Pakistan's economy is not generating enough and instead the government is forced to get additional loans to meet debt requirement.

In my opinion, PAF should stick to their plan. Production of JF-17 Block 3 and procurement of 5 gen aircraft once funds are made available.
Block III and a few vipers cannot counter 400+ BVR fighters of the IAF incuding Rafales and Su-30mki which can now communicate with each other unlike Feb 27. 5th gen plane will arrive in a decade or so. Even if it comes miraculously early, IAF will just go on a shopping spre of F-35s.

We need F-16V, if not that, then J-10C.
 

jupiter2007

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Block III and a few vipers cannot counter 400+ BVR fighters of the IAF incuding Rafales and Su-30mki which can now communicate with each other unlike Feb 27. 5th gen plane will arrive in a decade or so. Even if it comes miraculously early, IAF will just go on a shopping spre of F-35s.

We need F-16V, if not that, then J-10C.
While our enemy is increasing it’s defense budget and getting stronger, we cannot afford to waste time and wait for F-16V approval which might not happened. There are too many risk factors, even if the sales go through, Uncle Sam can block the delivery and can give us soybeans for our money.

In my opinion J-10C is the only logical choice at this time. Chinese can increased production and delivery them within one year. I have also heard that unknown numbers of J-10C were built for foreign customer and pending delivery, not sure if it’s true or just a rumor.
 

The Eagle

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In continuation to our previous discussion, I had another view of platforms along with their advantage/disadvantages and the need or requirement of PAF viz a viz in multirole mostly quoted for either Air to Air or Air to Ground/sruface role. While we look at these basic roles for fighter air craft, we need to look at armament available with platforms, the freedom to integrate or mate the weapons of our choice and then the availability of wide array of weapons accordingly.

Since, not everyone is expert like me so I decided to bring yet another view or a point to further our arguments in a layman manners where other members can also join the discussion alike. As I cannot cover the whole area of induction process/cost along with options/availability of platforms; need to ponder upon few points/areas while leaving a huge space for anyone/everyone to take as much as from this post, add your points, edit the way you want to and share your opinion/findings/observation as well.

Let's just start with what we are looking at, from the layman prospective. Since, Allama @SQ8 has already explained very well about the process and this exercise wouldn't be needed to repeat but I feel like few of us are still stuck with generalized opinion, common perception and repeating the same lines but not in uniform pattern or draft to understand the whole chain of actions/events taking place while inducting/process and different stages. So, we need to start with our requirement, possible gap that we see, options available and independence of armament to choose or weapons available.

PAF requirement/need as per our view for AA & AG/Surface roles
Currently, the whole argument is based upon two roles for the Aircrafts that PAF needs, are Air to Air for Air dominance given the Rafale induction into IAF and then the ground attack in view of offensive defensive in case of the war and PAF deep strike package.​

For these both roles (AA & AG), we will need to short list the availability of platforms along with all the bells/teeth & claws coming with options and choice of ours. On realistic approach without going into sensational & emotional speech, we agree that we do have 3 platforms in current times given the modern day tech & their multirole capability, advantages/disadvantages known to us.​
  1. JF-17 Block-III​
  2. J-10CE​
  3. F-16 Block-72 (Viper)​
  • JF-17 Block-III: I don't feel like repeating the same points against about the possible Radar, WE Suit, weapons, missiles, engine, range, cost etc. But we do need to consider that how Thunder may lack in areas that we mostly fear due to the size & ground clearance of Aircraft for deep strike role. As far as the last argument goes, there is a strong believe that Thunder is a light weight aircraft having its own limitation, hence, want of such discussion for yet another platform with its own capability which wouldn't just fulfill the gape but also, to compensate/compliment PAF transition into 5th Generation platform operation.
    • Remember that no professional air force inducts platform merely for a number priority or in short term solution against the adversary. While we discuss the possibility of new platform, we need to consider the impact/affects in regard to future (15 to 30 years minimum plan range) inductions/production/acquisitions by the PAF.
  • J-10C for PAF: Again, we know that there is freedom for the choice into weaponry area and so the independence to mate the weapons of our own choice either the home grown solution or the latest from Chinese inventory. The only advantage the J-10C might bring will be the weight carrying capability, more advance tech, being in class of F-16 and bit long range.
  • F-16 Block-72 (Viper): What do we know so far in regard to any promising offer for the weapons & armanents of our choice. At max, for Air to Air role AIM-120C7 will be offered but still there is uncertainty for the HOBs. Furthermore, I don't feel like if we will be receiving AIM-120D.
    • For Air to Ground role, so far we were never offered the offensive or SOW weapons but GBU/LGB only.
  • These points in regard to Viper inductions are based upon our history with US and their own style of weapons permissions for PAF. The uncertainty will remain so as long as we see some sudden change in mood of Biden administration. No doubt, if we consider the role of Pakistan into Afghanistan peace process and US-Pak relations on the basis of strategical importance; PAF can lay its hand on almost anything with the Viper but here, we are dealing with D.C. Conclusively, when we look at the Viper side; there's no such promising package except that Viper will be here with US AESA, incorporated EW at max and with required number of PODs followed by usual weapons systems.
  • Did we consider the factor of possible sanctions on any time given the history in US-Pak relations for F-16 fleet? There is always the risk of sanctions coming our way on one or another pretext.
What do we think? Well, apparently, unless there's a huge surprise coming towards us from PAF/LM/US; I see only two viable options for us to move forward. As said, if Thunder lacks in few key areas, there's a strong contender in form of J-10CE for additional induction into PAF. Remember that having platforms like JF-17 Thunder Block-III & J-10CE with almost commonality of systems, easily interconnected, Link advantage and interoperability; this is going to impact and support our Azm/5th Gen FA in positive manners. While we discuss the choice of weapons & freedom to mate anything as well as the commonality in key areas which in-fact has its own advantage; we shall remember our defence Cooperation with Turkey as well. May be a single sentence is not enough to prove its major affect but there is strong possibility that PAF will be having the next gen equipment/gadget and even NGF with the help of Turkey & China at one place.

Above post is merely an attempt to draw a simple picture of our requirement based upon the choice available and the most viable approach by keeping the long run planning in view.
 

alphapak

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The future of PAF will be J10's and JF17 thunders until the 5th gen arrives. F7's, Mirages
and F16s will be phased out.
 

imranyounus

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with respect to JF 17, Light weight does limit it's use. But it can be overcome by developing role specific platform. Like a dedicated interceptor or attack. In most likely scenario PAF will not go for massive strike and for such role JF 17 will be sufficient capable of carrying at most 2 stand off weapons will give PAF decent strike capabilities. older block can now be converted to strike role. while new block III is more than capable interceptor. This leaves room for Air-superiority and Both F16 and J 10 may fill this gap.
 

The Eagle

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with respect to JF 17, Light weight does limit it's use. But it can be overcome by developing role specific platform. Like a dedicated interceptor or attack. In most likely scenario PAF will not go for massive strike and for such role JF 17 will be sufficient capable of carrying at most 2 stand off weapons will give PAF decent strike capabilities. older block can now be converted to strike role. while new block III is more than capable interceptor. This leaves room for Air-superiority and Both F16 and J 10 may fill this gap.
Agreed with the disagreement for one point whereby I still repeat myself by saying that, JF-17 Thunder Block-III is the new platform for PAF followed by 5th Generation. However, to further the argument to explore ideas, options & to have flexibility in regard to continue our discussion with some more interest, I too had to pen down about the requirement other than Thunder.
 

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