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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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IIRC we're probably looking at an initial batch of 32~36 aircraft, if not less.

Not only that, but folks should remember that the PAF broadcast this requirement in 2015-2016, and alluded to by two successive CAS's.

Finally, if we order J-10CEs, it'll come at the cost of something else. The PAF would never commit to less than 90 of a new aircraft type, so those later batches will involve a trade-off. I think we'd likely cap the JF-17s at 188, for a start.
 

ziaulislam

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I think he meant 50blk3 along 36 J10 with option of 15 twin engine that's sums up 100
i think j10 are given but f16s are purely upto US administration

i doubt pakistan will buy them new and pay full price of 70-100m when they cant mate next gen aim 9x or aim 120d to it..since no matter how good aim120c is it still isnt weapon of the future..

last thing you want is that its 2030 and you still dont have aim120d with a bunch of new f16s..! it will be the repeat of 90s

used at low cost sure..but not new ..wont happen
 

MastanKhan

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Said the wannabe Donald Trump
Hi,

You think Donald Trump was bad---. Son---he stopped the killing of muslim in the middle east and afghanistan.

He made peace with North Korea---and made Kim calm down---.

He stopped american wars all over the world---. So what if his policies were america centric.
 

KaiserX

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When I stated on this forum 2 months ago that a deal for 50 J-10CE on an emergency basis people mocked me.

The recent participation of the J-10C in the air exercise in pakistan as well as Pakistani pilots flying the J-10C is a testamount that the PAF is going forward.
@SQ8

IIRC we're probably looking at an initial batch of 32~36 aircraft, if not less.

Not only that, but folks should remember that the PAF broadcast this requirement in 2015-2016, and alluded to by two successive CAS's.

Finally, if we order J-10CEs, it'll come at the cost of something else. The PAF would never commit to less than 90 of a new aircraft type, so those later batches will involve a trade-off. I think we'd likely cap the JF-17s at 188, for a start.
I doubt the JF-17s production would be affected by the emergency procurement of the J10CE. Reason being PAF has already achieved cost of scale. We already have 120+ JF-17s 1/2/B, I expect a minimum another 120 JF-17 3/4/Bs especially when KAMRA was already producing 24 JF-17s per year (2017). Us cutting JF-17 numbers from 250-300 to 188 will cost us $$$ since the cost of all the JF-17s will increase as well.
 

jupiter2007

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i think j10 are given but f16s are purely upto US administration

i doubt pakistan will buy them new and pay full price of 70-100m when they cant mate next gen aim 9x or aim 120d to it..since no matter how good aim120c is it still isnt weapon of the future..

last thing you want is that its 2030 and you still dont have aim120d with a bunch of new f16s..! it will be the repeat of 90s

used at low cost sure..but not new ..wont happen
If PAF decided to introduce a new platform, they have may evaluated all options and J-10 might be the best option at this time. Democrats are not always easy to work with and we don’t know if Biden will approve new F-16s sale to Pakistan.

In the mean time, India is try to allocate budget for additional 36 Rafale fighters. PAF is in need of a fighter equal or better than Rafale. J-10 with advance radar, avionics, EW suite package can match and in some areas perform better than Rafale.
 

The Raven

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@SQ8

IIRC we're probably looking at an initial batch of 32~36 aircraft, if not less.

Not only that, but folks should remember that the PAF broadcast this requirement in 2015-2016, and alluded to by two successive CAS's.

Finally, if we order J-10CEs, it'll come at the cost of something else. The PAF would never commit to less than 90 of a new aircraft type, so those later batches will involve a trade-off. I think we'd likely cap the JF-17s at 188, for a start.
Consolidation of the PAF into a 3 type air force has been on the cards for a while, hence the never ending saga of the J-10. I'm not sure whether it will come at the cost of JF-17 numbers though, most likely at the cost of any additional Vipers, especially new build. I think around 250 JF-17s is still viable, keeping in mind the costs offset by removing J-7s and maintenance heavy Mirages from the fleet. However, note that the J-10 itself will require a new support and maintenance line, especially for a new engine type...question is whether it will be the Russian or Chinese option.

Of course, this could all be a prank being played by someone with too much time on their hands to build a J-10 model plaque, knowing the response it'll get by gullible folks on forum *cough... MK...cough*
When I stated on this forum 2 months ago that a deal for 50 J-10CE on an emergency basis people mocked me.

The recent participation of the J-10C in the air exercise in pakistan as well as Pakistani pilots flying the J-10C is a testamount that the PAF is going forward.


I doubt the JF-17s production would be affected by the emergency procurement of the J10CE. Reason being PAF has already achieved cost of scale. We already have 120+ JF-17s 1/2/B, I expect a minimum another 120 JF-17 3/4/Bs especially when KAMRA was already producing 24 JF-17s per year (2017). Us cutting JF-17 numbers from 250-300 to 188 will cost us $$$ since the cost of all the JF-17s will increase as well.
In defence procurement, nothing is done on "an emergency basis". Talk of the J-10 has been ongoing for the past decade.
 

SQ8

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@SQ8

IIRC we're probably looking at an initial batch of 32~36 aircraft, if not less.

Not only that, but folks should remember that the PAF broadcast this requirement in 2015-2016, and alluded to by two successive CAS's.

Finally, if we order J-10CEs, it'll come at the cost of something else. The PAF would never commit to less than 90 of a new aircraft type, so those later batches will involve a trade-off. I think we'd likely cap the JF-17s at 188, for a start.
Tomorrow if the US admin & congress approve the integration of SOM or release JASSMs to Pakistan - the J-10’s will take the back burner.

If the F-16 fleet is given the ability to carry stand off systems, the PAF will have the strike fighter it wants.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Tomorrow if the US admin & congress approve the integration of SOM or release JASSMs to Pakistan - the J-10’s will take the back burner.

If the F-16 fleet is given the ability to carry stand off systems, the PAF will have the strike fighter it wants.
The US will definitely try to secure another multi-squadron export order for the F-16. It got Taiwan, but I suspect its eyes are on Israel, UAE, Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan. Europe's old F-16 users are downsizing fleets and moving to F-35s or FCAS. So, there's really no one else left to sustain big sales.

The PAF's F-16A/Bs are getting old. There's no known SLEP (after Falcon UP/STAR) to keep the aircraft up in the air past the already extended airframe life. For the PAF, Project AZM is probably the way out for these particular F-16s, but I think the US wouldn't mind redirecting the track to the Block-72.

Like you said, if they approve the integration of the SOM (and Atmaca), or release US equivalents, the PAF will likely steer that way very quickly. The new F-16s are costly, yes, but still a bargain relative to the Rafale and Typhoon ($125 m all-in vs like $250 m all-in per unit).

If the situation lines up just right, the PAF might bite on F-16s. But to 'soften' their future worries, they can sign onto the TFX as an official partner knowing full well that it'll be a long time before that jet materializes.
 

KaiserX

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Tomorrow if the US admin & congress approve the integration of SOM or release JASSMs to Pakistan - the J-10’s will take the back burner.

If the F-16 fleet is given the ability to carry stand off systems, the PAF will have the strike fighter it wants.
Not necessarily. There is still the problem of integration of indigenous stand off weapons and Chinese weapons which are primarily in use today. F-16 itself has short comings such as the limited range of the AIM-120 in comparison to Chinese systems or the lack of AESA radar.

At this point the J-10C would provide more capabilities than the F-16s. In short PAF will focus primarily on the JF-17s and J-10s while the F-16 will provide crucial support but take the back burner. In the pipeline we also have Project AZM for our 5th generation needs 5-8 years from now.
 

ziaulislam

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The US will definitely try to secure another multi-squadron export order for the F-16. It got Taiwan, but I suspect its eyes are on Israel, UAE, Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan. Europe's old F-16 users are downsizing fleets and moving to F-35s or FCAS. So, there's really no one else left to sustain big sales.

The PAF's F-16A/Bs are getting old. There's no known SLEP (after Falcon UP/STAR) to keep the aircraft up in the air past the already extended airframe life. For the PAF, Project AZM is probably the way out for these particular F-16s, but I think the US wouldn't mind redirecting the track to the Block-72.

Like you said, if they approve the integration of the SOM (and Atmaca), or release US equivalents, the PAF will likely steer that way very quickly. The new F-16s are costly, yes, but still a bargain relative to the Rafale and Typhoon ($125 m all-in vs like $250 m all-in per unit).

If the situation lines up just right, the PAF might bite on F-16s. But to 'soften' their future worries, they can sign onto the TFX as an official partner knowing full well that it'll be a long time before that jet materializes.
Honestly i doubt PAF will bite f16 at 70-100m a piece

Our economy wont allow to spend 4-5b$ on f16 when both j10,jf17 exists..

It isnt 1990 when only option was f7 or f16.

PAF instead will try to look for SLEP. Taiwan is getting its F16 A/B studied for SELP then there were news that TAI is working for pakistan for some structural upgrades
 

imranyounus

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Another important factor that favors J 10 is spare and back up support. since the new jet which ever it may be is kinda stop gap solution arising out of Rafael deal PAF might not look beyond 3 squadron at most. So setting up a service infrastructure will be more costly. And PAF will most likely look at original supplier to provide most of the maintenance. European options will be very risky for that. Any purchase from west will require a bigger investment in establishing maintenance facilities locally. The is a major problem against Eurofighter. And as such PAF even though with the success with Merage realise that repeating same in future is not possible.
 

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