New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

[Deino]

....

Meanwhile, PAF may look into the following options:
1. Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian).
2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.

Any of these options will ensure increased payload capacity and combat range.

I really don't understand why these ideas always pop up again and again? What sounds so logical and easy is in fact ridiculous since it would result de facto in a new aircraft, even more it is what we are joking on these constant Indian ideas as if scaling up the Tejas to the Mk.2 or even Orca would be easy!

And by the way ... what's then after years of development and the spending of billions of $$$$?

Option one, a "Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian)" would be what the J-10C already is and option two, a "Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines" would result in an unstealthy fighter comparable to the stealthy FC-31/J-35 but it won't be available earlier.

As such, IMO simply forget them as a waste of time and money.

 

[arjunk]

Why PAF need deep penetration strike capability?

IAF do not possess any long range strike air platform. Most of the IAF air bases are located within 1000 - 1500 km from Pakistani border.

Unless Pakistan Military changes its doctrine and opt to advance inside Indian territory, which I do not see a viable strategy considering the current capacity, Pakistan Military is having enough fire power to keep Indian Armed Forces in their side of border.

Though JF-17 payload carrying capacity is less than F-16 but its combat range is fair enough ie +1300 km.
Furthermore, lethality, range and precision of weapons deployed will matter the outcome. Therefore, PAF may focus more on weapon upgradation and development and Project AZM.

Meanwhile, PAF may look into the following options:
1. Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian).
2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.

Any of these options will ensure increased payload capacity and combat range.

IAF Rafales come with a 300km range standoff weapon which can strike very deep into Pakistan from far inside India. Brahmos is also a serious threat in that manner.

Pakistan military doctrine is to mobilise faster, and penetrate ~50km into Indian teritorry, before digging in. Though it recently changed IIRC. Maybe someone who knows more about this can elaborate.

1. F-16/J-10
2. It will be expensive and have a massive RCS, except without the maneuverability of a flanker, which is a useless feature in the 21st century anyway. Oh and we will not get western engines on a JF-17.

 

[jupiter2007]

JF-17 block 3 is already in production but PAF is not completely sold on block 3. It’s a great addition to current fleet but it’s primarily purpose is to replace J-7s and Mirage and support F-16s.
I think PAF will wait another six months to evaluate their options, J-10C, J-11/J-16 (with the permission from Russia), SU-35 (according to some people it was supposed to arrive in 2019), surplus F-16s or F-16 block 70.

 

[Marker]

“2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.”

it’s like building a new twin engine fighter.

Yes, why not?

If PAF is taking initiative to design, develop and manufacture twin engine NGFA, then this "JF-27" step could become a stepping stone.

Developing and manufacturing semi stealth 4+ gen medium weight multi-role aircraft within 4-5 years is very much possible. Most of the designing and developing phase can be cut down. Of course, Chinese expertise will be the part of this project to expedite it.

We all know that designing, developing and manufacturing 5 gen twin engine fighter aircraft indigenously is highly ambitious project and require highly qualified skilled and experienced team of engineers and technicians and infra structure PAC do not have at present. JF-27 venture will let them gain the required experience and the infra-structure.

I really don't understand why these ideas always pop up again and again? What sounds so logical and easy is in fact ridiculous since it would result de facto in a new aircraft, even more it is what we are joking on these constant Indian ideas as if scaling up the Tejas to the Mk.2 or even Orca would be easy!

And by the way ... what's then after years of development and the spending of billions of $$$$?

Option one, a "Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian)" would be what the J-10C already is and option two, a "Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines" would result in an unstealthy fighter comparable to the stealthy FC-31/J-35 but it won't be available earlier.

As such, IMO simply forget them as a waste of time and money.

50% spending will be inside Pakistan to gain experience and skill and remaining 50% will be used to import or develop infra structure. In short, it will not be wasted. Basically, this spending is for the development of NGFA.

J-10C is a 100% Chinese fighter jet, PAF will have almost no access to integrate "other" avionics or weaponry.

J-10 was under consideration since very long but PAF did not show its "willingness" to spend on acquiring it, why?

Making a "twin engine" fighter jet will provide PAC team valuable know how and infra structure.

PAF will have an indigenous medium weight 4+ gen fighter aircraft in its inventory.

 

[Deino]

Yes, why not?

If PAF is taking initiative to design, develop and manufacture twin engine NGFA, then this "JF-27" step could become a stepping stone.

Developing and manufacturing semi stealth 4+ gen medium weight multi-role aircraft within 4-5 years is very much possible. Most of the designing and developing phase can be cut down. Of course, Chinese expertise will be the part of this project to expedite it.

We all know that designing, developing and manufacturing 5 gen twin engine fighter aircraft indigenously is highly ambitious project and require highly qualified skilled and experienced team of engineers and technicians. JF-27 venture will let them gain the required experience and the infra-structure.

Don't get me wrong and I know I'm here rated too often as the one who always ruins the party, but how could this be done?

Simply scaling up to fit a much larger engine (like the WS-10) or adding a second engine (2x RD-93MA) would surely be possible, the development from the YF-17 to the F/A-18 and especially Super Hornet could be done but at what cost?

China surely won't pay for this development of yet another fourth generation fighter since they are already generation ahead. So can Pakistan afford it on its own? Maybe yes, maybe not but even if, why? A larger JF-17 is de facto what they could already have right new with the J-10 and your proposed JF-27 is de facto a less capable, one generation behind equivalent to the FC-31/J-35.

So why?

 

[Marker]

Don't get me wrong and I know I'm here rated too often as the one who always ruins the party, but how could this be done?

Simply scaling up to fit a much larger engine (like the WS-10) or adding a second engine (2x RD-93MA) would surely be possible, the development from the YF-17 to the F/A-18 and especially Super Hornet could be done but at what cost?

China surely won't pay for this development of yet another fourth generation fighter since they are already generation ahead. So can Pakistan afford it on its own? Maybe yes, maybe not but even if, why? A larger JF-17 is de facto what they could already have right new with the J-10 and your proposed JF-27 is de facto a less capable, one generation behind equivalent to the FC-31/J-35.

So why?

Since PAF already undertook an ambitious AZM project, then PAF must be ready to invest on it. In my opinion, the spending on developing scaled up design of JF-17 specially twin engine design will act as a stepping stone for PAC for onward development of twin engine NGFA.

There are two reasons, why I am suggesting this venture of developing an indigenous 4+ gen medium weight fighter aircraft.
1. To buildup required infrastructure, skill and experience for NGFA development.
2. PAF will have indigenous medium weight fighter with no restrictions to integrate avionic and weaponry. A replacement of older F-16s.

 

[Deino]

Since PAF already undertook an ambitious AZM project, then PAF must be ready to invest on it. In my opinion, the spending on developing scaled up design of JF-17 specially twin engine design will act as a stepping stone for PAC for onward development of twin engine NGFA.

There are two reasons, why I am suggesting this venture of developing an indigenous 4+ gen medium weight fighter aircraft.
1. To buildup required infrastructure, skill and experience for NGFA development.
2. PAF will have indigenous medium weight fighter with no restrictions to integrate avionic and weaponry. A replacement of older F-16s.

But if the PAF wants to have ARM in service let's say in the 2030s, then they must begin with the development NOW, what is already done orr at least prepared to archieve thsi ambitious goal ... but how long will it take and how much will it cost to "upscale and enlarge the JF-17"? When could such an interim type be ready?

Let's say, it COULD be done in 2 years for the design, one more year prototype construction, lets say a few years (5) more for flight testing and operational preparations ... at best 5-7 years. So it could at best be ready in the late 2020s (2028?) and that all for a fighter that is then dated and diverted a lot of resources away from AZM.

IMO not a feasible and reasonable option. This could have been done already 10 years ago, but now it's too late.

 

[Marker]

But if the PAF wants to have ARM in service let's say in the 2030s, then they must begin with the development NOW, what is already done orr at least prepared to archieve thsi ambitious goal ... but how long will it take and how much will it cost to "upscale and enlarge the JF-17"? When could such an interim type be ready?

Let's say, it COULD be done in 2 years for the design, one more year prototype construction, lets say a few years (5) more for flight testing and operational preparations ... at best 5-7 years. So it could at best be ready in the late 2020s (2028?) and that all for a fighter that is then dated and diverted a lot of resources away from AZM.

IMO not a feasible and reasonable option. This could have been done already 10 years ago, but now it's too late.

Acquiring a new 4+ gen fighter jet and developing indigenous aircraft both require huge financial resources, therefore it is better to invest in-country to develop and acquire infra-structure.

This is not a diversion. it is prequel before the main show. The experience, skill and infrastructure gained during the process may be simultaneously utilized for development of NGFA.

In my opinion, NGFA venture cannot be attainable unless PAC develop and acquire the required infra structure, skills and experience. After JF-17, PAC may commence an indigenous 4+ gen medium weight fighter program to acquire the prerequisites for NGFA project.

Moreover, PAF leadership whenever talked about acquiring a new air platform, they showed interest in acquiring 5 gen fighter aircraft not 4+gen fighter aircraft.

 

[The Eagle]

Let's say, it COULD be done in 2 years for the design

Supposedly, I am saying that this phase is already passed. Remember that you will never have an official hint or statement given the secrecy in Pakistan and China as well. To understand Pakistan style strategy, you will need to pay attention to the words being said by different officials on random occasions like some normal statement. For example....

Air Commodore Sajjad Haider once said "No matter if India brings Rafale or anything else; we have the first shoot capability". PAF has the capability to see first and shoot first.

Then again,

Couple of more Retd. personnel are noted to say that "Rafale doesn't bring something new to this region". By the "New" means, the AESA and long range BVR is already here. Now it is up-to to the enemy to guess and remain uncomfortable while this side has already said in veiled manners to send a message. Now, given the high tension and then Indian embarrassment into the hands of PAF; no one will ever think to make bluffs merely to play psyops.

Then again, a statement was made later that PAF NGF has passed through 1st stage of design. Pardon me that I cannot remember exact words but that statement would have come out only when the next stage was already nearing completion or passing the bench mark as a validation that designers don't need to go back to 1st stage for some corrections. The key word you may ever find for Pakistan specially is that "Who knows". Remember that unlike India, Pakistan doesn't boast a lot of make in Pakistan or Made in Pakistan unless it is done and then they bring such information to the surprise of everyone out there.

I still remember that US official was objecting to some payments or leverages or economic adjustments or some Pak China dealing in CPEC that is not allegedly told or available in Public Domain. US official (a lady I think) was so curious to know everything and the conclusion of such anxiety was that Pakistan-China & another country are involved in some strategical nature dealings under CPEC umbrella.

So, nothing came out despite the bluff being played so that Pakistanis may throw everything in public but again, nothing. This is how it will keep working and in the meantime, lack of proof, evidence or even a public statement will remain so unless things are done. Pakistanis have learnt a hard way or it wouldn't be wrong to say that through a harsh way that no matter if Pakistan does anything for sovereignty like any other nation; still this nation will be sanctioned or harmed or put to live in hard days. Last but not the least, we shall not forget that our eastern neighbors is famous for lobbying, crying, twisting, manipulating & given the need to contain China, India is already a blue eyed boy for the US especially. In simple words, we can afford mocking, taunts or enemy's demoralizing words against us but we cannot afford a leak that might have far more economical consequences for the nation.

Regards my dear,

 

[araz]

I really don't understand why these ideas always pop up again and again? What sounds so logical and easy is in fact ridiculous since it would result de facto in a new aircraft, even more it is what we are joking on these constant Indian ideas as if scaling up the Tejas to the Mk.2 or even Orca would be easy!

And by the way ... what's then after years of development and the spending of billions of $$$$?

Option one, a "Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian)" would be what the J-10C already is and option two, a "Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines" would result in an unstealthy fighter comparable to the stealthy FC-31/J-35 but it won't be available earlier.

As such, IMO simply forget them as a waste of time and money.

I have stopped replying to posts because I have previously tried and failed to make people understand you cannot even change engines in a car much less a fighter( well technically you can but the changes would cost more than buying another car or two). I would love to put a Lexus hybrid engine in my 17yrs old Honda stream but cant. But hey whats to stop people dreaming.
A

 

[Signalian]

Not true!

A few months ago ACM took a commercial flight in an Airbus A-320. Now i have been informed by some strategically planted and cultivated sources of mine on Facebook that since that flight of ACM on A-320, PAC have started working on a conversion program for A-320 and we have signed a deal of 24 new plus 12 old A-320s and they are being converted into a fighter cum AESA cum ballistic missile launch platform. This is a done deal, the planes are on way to Kamra and the ballistic missiles have already been delivered to the base. You are way to immature to understand the significance of ACM flying in plane! Do you think he will do it unless we are sure to buy that plane? Why will he fly in a plane if PAF is not going to buy it. It is not like that plane belonged to a friendly country participating in a joint exercise in Pakistan so the ACM will hop in to take a ride! NO! If he went to fly that it is 200% confirmed that PAF have decided to buy them.


Oh and do not give me the same old lame excuse! As you know (or perhaps you dont even know such basic things), MONEY NO PROBLEM!! YO YO!!

I was reading your post so seriously ........till i sensed something was wrong somewhere when i read the 2nd line of FB sources

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But if the PAF wants to have ARM in service let's say in the 2030s, then they must begin with the development NOW, what is already done orr at least prepared to archieve thsi ambitious goal ... but how long will it take and how much will it cost to "upscale and enlarge the JF-17"? When could such an interim type be ready?

Let's say, it COULD be done in 2 years for the design, one more year prototype construction, lets say a few years (5) more for flight testing and operational preparations ... at best 5-7 years. So it could at best be ready in the late 2020s (2028?) and that all for a fighter that is then dated and diverted a lot of resources away from AZM.

IMO not a feasible and reasonable option. This could have been done already 10 years ago, but now it's too late.

Agreed.

The PAF probably isn't going to spend money on additional JF-17 development. If it opts to order more aircraft, the most we will see are tune-ups in the electronics.

Basically, the PAF's looking to squeeze as much mileage out of the existing R&D overhead of the JF-17. That's how you reduce pricing, which is important for exports.

Besides, what's the point of an enlarged JF-17 when there is already a J-10CE? If the PAF wants a larger multirole fighter as an interim ahead of the NGFA, then it would be cheaper to acquire the J-10CE than to create a JF-17 Mk2.

Ironically, the simpler solution for the PAF might just be to pick-up the FC-31 as-is (not J-35), and work with China to complete it. Unlike the 'twin-engine JF-17', we at least know this is a functional design.

 

[Deino]

Agreed.

The PAF probably isn't going to spend money on additional JF-17 development. If it opts to order more aircraft, the most we will see are tune-ups in the electronics.

Basically, the PAF's looking to squeeze as much mileage out of the existing R&D overhead of the JF-17. That's how you reduce pricing, which is important for exports.

Besides, what's the point of an enlarged JF-17 when there is already a J-10CE? If the PAF wants a larger multirole fighter as an interim ahead of the NGFA, then it would be cheaper to acquire the J-10CE than to create a JF-17 Mk2.

Ironically, the simpler solution for the PAF might just be to pick-up the FC-31 as-is (not J-35), and work with China to complete it. Unlike the 'twin-engine JF-17', we at least know this is a functional design. The PAF may also be able to cut a deal with China to split Shenyang's original costs (since both will use the FC-31 as the originating point for their respective programs).

Exactly my arguments, probably put together in a clearer and more eloquent way, but @Marker seems not to agree.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Exactly my arguments, probably put together in a clearer and more eloquent way, but @Marker seems not to agree.

tbh, I think the actual 'twin-engine JF-17' option (i.e., the sense of getting a new fighter for less than a true NGFA) might be to pick-up the FC-31 as-is.

Basically, pick-up the FC-31, fit it with the RD-93MA, an up-tuned NRIET AESA radar, and PL-15, and call it a day. This probably is the contingency option assuming the Chinese haven't taken it off the table entirely.

 

[CIA Mole]

tbh, I think the actual 'twin-engine JF-17' option (i.e., the sense of getting a new fighter for less than a true NGFA) might be to pick-up the FC-31 as-is.

Basically, pick-up the FC-31, fit it with the RD-93MA, an up-tuned NRIET AESA radar, and PL-15, and call it a day. This probably is the contingency option assuming the Chinese haven't taken it off the table entirely.

Seems plausible if Chinese have 6th gen in the pipeline

We get their 5th gen design