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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Ah, Bilal!

I have almost abandoned this forum. I say almost because I drop in now and then to remain updated on new developments (if any) & read comments & reviews from from few sane voices that exist here. For me you top these sane voices. But I respectfully disagree on your "deep strike" prediction solely based on the fact that while deep penetration strikes remain relevant the deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA) are almost obsolete. What Pakistan actually needs is a future proof aircraft and the future continues to be multirole . But whatever multirole aircraft Pakistan acquires it must have the ability to instantly switch between different role at the push of a button, much like Gripen.
I agree with that. I'll alter my stance a bit.

I think the next fighter needs to be capable of handling deep-strike to a noticeably better clip than the JF-17 and F-16. The 'heavyweight' thing is just my inference, but the PAF may be happy with a FC-31-sized fighter as well. If anything, a single platform fleet comprising of a FC-31-sized fighter could be the optimal.
 

Iceman2

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Just a question to all the people saying that we are good with current procurement... Don't you see urgent situation at our eastern borders... There definitely a need for a stop gap or whatever aircraft...

"The Delightful Drums of War Beat Louder Every Day" - Henry Kissinger
 

GriffinsRule

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Just a question to all the people saying that we are good with current procurement... Don't you see urgent situation at our eastern borders... There definitely a need for a stop gap or whatever aircraft...

"The Delightful Drums of War Beat Louder Every Day" - Henry Kissinger
Since when has the situation not been urgent on the Indo-Pak border? I say we are actually in a better position now then in the past 3 decades.
 

sohail.ishaque

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I think PAF will go for J10C because block 3 on it's own no matter what we put in it it's still a light weight fighter we need something like J10C to do the heavy lifting while block 3 would complement it .... after addition of Rafael we should look forward to J10C induction PAF is not stupid that it will send a light weight fighter to fight Rafael and su30mki formations something will be procured to counter it air chief himself said that the balance has to be maintained it could be newer J10 or J10C itself or maybe F16V if Pakistan pays full price for upgrade it will be approved but not J20 ....
I m no aviation expert that is why i want to know that if a fighter jet with a good missile, radar, avionics, and other stuff don't matter in a bvr fight ? but the category of the fighter jet ?
 

SABRE

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I agree with that. I'll alter my stance a bit.

I think the next fighter needs to be capable of handling deep-strike to a noticeably better clip than the JF-17 and F-16. The 'heavyweight' thing is just my inference, but the PAF may be happy with a FC-31-sized fighter as well. If anything, a single platform fleet comprising of a FC-31-sized fighter could be the optimal.
I agree with your altered stance. But here is my tirade on PAF's acquisition prcess.

Generally, PAF's problem is not what it is happy with (because that's mostly unavailable) but what it has to be happy with (make do with). As much as the problem is from suppliers' end it is also of the making of the Pakistani military. Internal austerity and budgetary reallocation within the armed forces could ensure a steady acquistion of qualitative assets from the U.S. or any of the European suppliers, with the exception of France. The assets acquired would of course come in small numbers and gradually build up. But clearly that will not happen. So, the logical conclusion always leads us to a single source: China. In this regard we have counted almost all the eggs & none have hatched. FC-20, J-11, J-15, J-16, JH-7, etc ... you name it, we have rumored it, and none of it has happened. I was quite young when Musharraf visited China, toured CAC & decided to buy around 36 FC-20s. I am old now & I see no FC-20s. Lacking funds, we must be cautious about factoring FC-31 into the equation as well. That is unless, we sell a part of country's resources &/or economy to the Chinese in exchange for few FC-31 units. This would not settle well with us, the ordinary population, though.

What bothers me the most is that the PAF has had an opportunity to draw plans for future acquisitions, including contingencies, since the early 2000s when the IAF presented a request for 200+ fighter aircraft (initially Mirage 2000-5). But we went for handful of F-16s. Once the plan for inducting good number of F-16s fell in the ditch the PAF essentially sat tight to watch the show. It still had time when the MMRCA competition began ... but, sitting tight. Then, India narrowed down the MMRCA ... sitting tight. Rafale selected ... sitting tight. Rafale inducted ... sitting tight. This is essentially the mentality that has plagued Pakistan since the beginning, especially when it comes to acquisitions for PAF & PN. To summarise for these two branches: get something mufta, sasta, chalta (second-hand) or on karza, otherwise ... sit tight.

The only people to break the patterns of dismissiveness and creepy acquisitions for the PAF were ZA Bhutto & Zia Ul Haq. Bhutto inherited broken armed forces unable to squeak thus managed to priotisie air force modernization over others without fuss. Zia inherited Bhutto's air force modernization plan and went along with it because the aircraft in question were Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA) = extended artilleries in the air. But luck being on his side, the F-16s became available. So ... unless we have a civilian leader who is willing to step up on the acquisitions for the PAF & PN and a military leader who is able to see that PAF & PN modernization is necessary for the success of overall military operations & war planning we might not see an acquisition worthy of national confidence.

Then there is the JF-17 school of thought. Sure it is a very good induction, formidable asset in its own right. But lets face it, it was designed to be a second-tier fighter & that is what it continues to be. Block-III may change - perhaps even become a game changer - that but the vacuum for a 5th gen. aircraft persists. Azm is one of the eggs that has not hatched & is not going to anywhere in the near future. So lets not count that.

Given the opportunity, PAF would again jump onto F-16s above everything else. If that happens, we can't say what the make/version/model is going to be but it is likely to be a mix of new & used aircraft, with used out numbering new by a big margin. Would they suffice for deep penetration strikes? I cannot say, but the likely answer is NO. So, the only other makeup for the problem is JF-17s laced with A2G ammunition and supported by an aerial refueling aircraft for the purpose.

I hope I am proven wrong for much of my tirade above.
 
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Deino

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Not true!

A few months ago ACM took a commercial flight in an Airbus A-320. Now i have been informed by some strategically planted and cultivated sources of mine on Facebook that since that flight of ACM on A-320, PAC have started working on a conversion program for A-320 and we have signed a deal of 24 new plus 12 old A-320s and they are being converted into a fighter cum AESA cum ballistic missile launch platform. This is a done deal, the planes are on way to Kamra and the ballistic missiles have already been delivered to the base. You are way to immature to understand the significance of ACM flying in plane! Do you think he will do it unless we are sure to buy that plane? Why will he fly in a plane if PAF is not going to buy it. It is not like that plane belonged to a friendly country participating in a joint exercise in Pakistan so the ACM will hop in to take a ride! NO! If he went to fly that it is 200% confirmed that PAF have decided to buy them.


Oh and do not give me the same old lame excuse! As you know (or perhaps you dont even know such basic things), MONEY NO PROBLEM!! YO YO!!

You are joking!!?? Or do you want to tell us that the PAF is getting several A.320 to convert them as ballistic missile launch platforms?? :fie:
 

The Eagle

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I agree with your altered stance. But here is my tirade on PAF's acquisition prcess.

Generally, PAF's problem is not what it is happy with (because that's mostly unavailable) but what it has to be happy with (make do with). As much as the problem is from suppliers' end it is also of the making of the Pakistani military. Internal austerity and budgetary reallocation within the armed forces could ensure a steady acquistion of qualitative assets from the U.S. or any of the European suppliers, with the exception of France. The assets acquired would of course come in small numbers and gradually build up. But clearly that will not happen. So, the logical conclusion always leads us to a single source: China. In this regard we have counted almost all the eggs & none have hatched. FC-20, J-11, J-15, J-16, JH-7, etc ... you name it, we have rumored it, and none of it has happened. I was quite young when Musharraf visited China, toured CAC & decided to buy around 36 FC-20s. I am old now & I see no FC-20s. Lacking funds, we must be cautious about factoring FC-31 into the equation as well. That is unless, we sell a part of country's resources &/or economy to the Chinese in exchange for few FC-31 units. This would not settle well with us, the ordinary population, though.

What bothers me the most is that the PAF has had an opportunity to draw plans for future acquisitions, including contingencies, since the early 2000s when the IAF presented a request for 200+ fighter aircraft (initially Mirage 2000-5). But we went for handful of F-16s. Once the plan for inducting good number of F-16s fell in the ditch the PAF essentially sat tight to watch the show. It still had time when the MMRCA competition began ... but, sitting tight. Then, India narrowed down the MMRCA ... sitting tight. Rafale selected ... sitting tight. Rafale inducted ... sitting tight. This is essentially the mentality that has plagued Pakistan since the beginning, especially when it comes to acquisitions for PAF & PN. To summarise for these two branches: get something mufta, sasta, chalta (second-hand) or on karza, otherwise ... sit tight.

The only people to break the patterns of dismissiveness and creepy acquisitions for the PAF were ZA Bhutto & Zia Ul Haq. Bhutto inherited broken armed forces unable to squeak thus managed to priotisie air force modernization over others without fuss. Zia inherited Bhutto's air force modernization plan and went along with it because the aircraft in question were Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA) = extended artilleries in the air. But luck being on his side, the F-16s became available. So ... unless we have a civilian leader who is willing to step up on the acquisitions for the PAF & PN and a military leader who is able to see that PAF & PN modernization is necessary for the success of overall military operations & war planning we might not see an acquisition worthy of national confidence.

Then there is the JF-17 school of thought. Sure it is a very good induction, formidable asset in its own right. But lets face it, it was designed to be a second-tier fighter & that is what it continues to be. Block-III may change - perhaps even become a game changer - that but the vacuum for a 5th gen. aircraft persists. Azm is one of the eggs that has not hatched & is not going to anywhere in the near future. So lets not count that.

Given the opportunity, PAF would again jump onto F-16s above everything else. If that happens, we can't say what the make/version/model is going to be but it is likely to be a mix of new & used aircraft, with used out numbering new by a big margin. Would they suffice for deep penetration strikes? I cannot say, but the likely answer is NO. So, the only other makeup for the problem is JF-17s laced with A2G ammunition and supported by an aerial refueling aircraft for the purpose.

I hope I am proven wrong for much of my tirade above.
I will just add up few of my observations.

By the time, when IAF was deciding to go for a shopping spree, PAF had to wait a bit since there was no economy to support, a corrupt leadership taking their respective turns to loot, eat & suck Pakistan inside out. By the same time, as US and many others of the same lot seen the weakness & infected mindset of civil leadership on top; availed the opportunity to cut us short by denying access to many of articles. Few sane minds within Services saw it coming and learnt the lesson. Why the need of a 2nd tier lo-med category fighter? Well, in short, a large fleet was coming to an end for replacement and then by looking at situation of sanctions & lobbying to keep us contain; luckily we went on a Thunder route.

This route was not just aimed to merely replace the ageing fighter fleet but in-fact, a whole sum of project which set the base of an Aviation industry while opening new doors of R&D, education & many other academic explorations as a beginner. Since we didn't have the luxury like any other first world country or India to the least; it was still a mountain task aimed to climb without much of equipment and other's intention to not to help at all. By grace of almighty, we did it even though the number of far sighted patriots, was less. I am not pressing more on corruption factor, by corruption I mean every kind of corruption which is done by the culprits to make us pay in many forms. But, that is the reality whether it came in the form of money or any other possible way but frankly speaking; Armed Forces were merely managing by meeting the day. Now, situation is different and we observe that by looking at what is Navy up-to, Army's acquisitions & so for PAF. Like history is repeating when leadership is committed to strengthen our first lines of defence.

I always said that JF-17 Thunder program was set on the basis of revolution for our determination towards self reliance but, JF-17 Thunder fighter Air Craft is based upon the law of evolution to keep up with new threats in particular areas of its class and deployment.

I will say that, we shouldn't compare JF-17 Block-III air frame in its class/category for a comparison to existing threat. We do have a mix of Falcons and Thunders along with Mirages still active and serving. The doctrine & plans made to counter the top threat, are driving forces to keep us ahead of rival despite being short of economy on top and then the leeches within the system that eat us inside out with everything. How the expectations went up? Well, now we see that there is always something new in development for the forces to strengthen our defence. Be it Army, Navy or Air Force; even on the public level, there is a lot of activities. While we speak of sitting idle, I cannot ignore the miserable economic condition speaking volume of helplessness.

JF-17 Thunder is a weapon system with lot of flexibility in its own kind by the nature of design which provides a lot of room for further evolution. The revolution came when an Air Force like PAF went on to design, produce & induct our own Air Craft. The evolution remain intact so the concern quarters will keep on upgrading and even will explore other ideas to strengthen the fleet as required and so desired. The requisite counter weapon which are warranted due to threat from the East, are in place and so the platform such as Thunder Block-III can deliver the results despite being smaller given the category but there comes the doctrine & deployment of assets as planned with devised strategy.

Since, Block-III is all about closing the generation gap i.e. 4.5, I am sure, PAF will still keep the mix of fleet and not to go in one colour but to have all the surprising element and keeping the enemy running and spending for counters of different natures.

This is how the whole plan may move forward. Flacons and ideally more with the mix of new Vipers or Viper upgrade and then we have Block-III which provides us the luxury of AESA along with very long range BVR (expected PL-15), the mirages still in place with an untold plane of future replacement. While we see this fleet, the Azm is already announced. Azm is not the 5th Gen plane for PAF but a setup/program as a whole which will excel in many areas like UAVs/Loyal Wing Man/our own research of home grown solutions for the fleet like Radar or Missile for Thunders and PAF's NGF/FGF etc etc.

While we compare the Thunder viz a viz Rafale; I observe that we are far ahead in strategy in this area. Have we noticed that why some of Indian analyst says that IAF is still stuck with kinetic weapon system/strategy while PAF is far ahead in the field with almost 6 to 8 years lead? Actually, we are looking at a whole battlefield system designed with connectivity and flexibility whereby dedicated platform do have authority to take over and command the shots/moves or maneuvers. We aren't matching a single platform with platform to counter. We are actually may be looking at a whole sum of game plan and a system which incorporates all the assets including, Thunder (all the blocks), Flacons (all the blocks), Mirages (all the blocks), ASW assets, Navy & Army's assets including helis and surface to surface missile launch platforms etc etc being integrated to a system (A whole new platform) which will work as a single command to press enemy harder and harder to choke in the end.

I am not an authority to make such claims or my opinions shall not be taken as some inside news or leak at all. This is all what I observed. If a commoner like us can show some uncertainty and dismay that PAF or Navy or Army is seen like a sitting duck, on the same time we need to understand that how Military is so confident and even shows the muscle in different manners whereby enemy is still busy with more & more shopping but still dissatisfied or feeling the mistrust. Name the platforms individually and we will find ourselves being short for current situation to which, I am indeed not including the future of threats. But, the way I see and observe things, no one is sitting idle but in-fact we are ahead in strategy as well as preparation and so in offensive defence. The rumors of Chinese Platform or any other new inductions, were nothing but rumors by different people. Sometimes, such rumors are productive and a message to a different party which is not even mentioned in such chatters. That brings actually something good at table for sure but not every time.

JF-17 Thunder Block-III provides the weapons that we need in view of Rafale acquisition but on the same time, Block-III is not going to perform like a lone warrior in this scenario. This evolution will actually strengthen the system which will play the final music with all the sticks in hand for disposal. Imagine an AESA on Block-III is all seeing for whole fleet, Falcons are all seeing things & so their armaments, is to be at disposal and Mirages and all. What I am seeing is actually be it PAF, Navy or Army; we are looking at new dimension of warfare which includes hard and soft kill capability given on any day or time.

Block-III is here and good enough to negate current threat and there is coming the 5th Gen which in my opinion will be like, we are still ahead of enemy and will remain ahead of enemy who had a plan to dry us in shopping but caught itself in surprise and trying everything at hand to match which needs years to come close to PAF. By the time, enemy does so, I am feeling like we will be seeing a new platform i.e. 5th Generation with PAF and history will repeat itself in the same manners that enemy will be drying out to match the capability or pose any threat or have an upper hand. Currently, it is a check mate for me leaving the enemy lost in thought to shop more and more. No doubt that India is preparing well and spending a lot but the way public might be seeing Pakistan Armed Forces sitting idle, could be the result of less of information available in public domain. The information includes whether any purchase or capability of current weapons systems. Does that make us vulnerable? I don't see that.

My apologies in advance if this seems to be an unbearable rant for some but we are here to speak our hearts out with mind.
 

Fighting Falcon 01

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I m no aviation expert that is why i want to know that if a fighter jet with a good missile, radar, avionics, and other stuff don't matter in a bvr fight ? but the category of the fighter jet ?
a medium weight fighter can carry a larger radar with more TRMs more avionics more weapons and stay in the air longer than light weight fighter..... a block 3 will most probably carry only 2× PL 15s while Rafael can carry 4× meteor and more SOWs than JF17 ......
 

Blueskiez 2001

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a medium weight fighter can carry a larger radar with more TRMs more avionics more weapons and stay in the air longer than light weight fighter..... a block 3 will most probably carry only 2× PL 15s while Rafael can carry 4× meteor and more SOWs than JF17 ......
And that is exactly why I think J-10CE will be the solution
 

Syed1.

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a medium weight fighter can carry a larger radar with more TRMs more avionics more weapons and stay in the air longer than light weight fighter..... a block 3 will most probably carry only 2× PL 15s while Rafael can carry 4× meteor and more SOWs than JF17 ......
Whether you are carrying one missile or four if you have a missile locked on your a$$ and homing into your position at mach 4 you won't care that you are in a top of the line Rafael with decked out armoury. Your reaction would be to initiate evasive maneuvers. While you are preoccupied with trying to evade the first missile the JF-17 pilot could go all John Wick on you and do a double tap and launch his second PL-15 as well in your direction.



The point I'm trying to make is it is a moot point that Rafael can carry 4 and Thunder can carry 2. If you can see first and shoot first then even one missile is enough to throw a wrench in the enemy's plans.
 

peagle

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I will just add up few of my observations.

By the time, when IAF was deciding to go for a shopping spree, PAF had to wait a bit since there was no economy to support, a corrupt leadership taking their respective turns to loot, eat & suck Pakistan inside out. By the same time, as US and many others of the same lot seen the weakness & infected mindset of civil leadership on top; availed the opportunity to cut us short by denying access to many of articles. Few sane minds within Services saw it coming and learnt the lesson. Why the need of a 2nd tier lo-med category fighter? Well, in short, a large fleet was coming to an end for replacement and then by looking at situation of sanctions & lobbying to keep us contain; luckily we went on a Thunder route.

This route was not just aimed to merely replace the ageing fighter fleet but in-fact, a whole sum of project which set the base of an Aviation industry while opening new doors of R&D, education & many other academic explorations as a beginner. Since we didn't have the luxury like any other first world country or India to the least; it was still a mountain task aimed to climb without much of equipment and other's intention to not to help at all. By grace of almighty, we did it even though the number of far sighted patriots, was less. I am not pressing more on corruption factor, by corruption I mean every kind of corruption which is done by the culprits to make us pay in many forms. But, that is the reality whether it came in the form of money or any other possible way but frankly speaking; Armed Forces were merely managing by meeting the day. Now, situation is different and we observe that by looking at what is Navy up-to, Army's acquisitions & so for PAF. Like history is repeating when leadership is committed to strengthen our first lines of defence.

I always said that JF-17 Thunder program was set on the basis of revolution for our determination towards self reliance but, JF-17 Thunder fighter Air Craft is based upon the law of evolution to keep up with new threats in particular areas of its class and deployment.

I will say that, we shouldn't compare JF-17 Block-III air frame in its class/category for a comparison to existing threat. We do have a mix of Falcons and Thunders along with Mirages still active and serving. The doctrine & plans made to counter the top threat, are driving forces to keep us ahead of rival despite being short of economy on top and then the leeches within the system that eat us inside out with everything. How the expectations went up? Well, now we see that there is always something new in development for the forces to strengthen our defence. Be it Army, Navy or Air Force; even on the public level, there is a lot of activities. While we speak of sitting idle, I cannot ignore the miserable economic condition speaking volume of helplessness.

JF-17 Thunder is a weapon system with lot of flexibility in its own kind by the nature of design which provides a lot of room for further evolution. The revolution came when an Air Force like PAF went on to design, produce & induct our own Air Craft. The evolution remain intact so the concern quarters will keep on upgrading and even will explore other ideas to strengthen the fleet as required and so desired. The requisite counter weapon which are warranted due to threat from the East, are in place and so the platform such as Thunder Block-III can deliver the results despite being smaller given the category but there comes the doctrine & deployment of assets as planned with devised strategy.

Since, Block-III is all about closing the generation gap i.e. 4.5, I am sure, PAF will still keep the mix of fleet and not to go in one colour but to have all the surprising element and keeping the enemy running and spending for counters of different natures.

This is how the whole plan may move forward. Flacons and ideally more with the mix of new Vipers or Viper upgrade and then we have Block-III which provides us the luxury of AESA along with very long range BVR (expected PL-15), the mirages still in place with an untold plane of future replacement. While we see this fleet, the Azm is already announced. Azm is not the 5th Gen plane for PAF but a setup/program as a whole which will excel in many areas like UAVs/Loyal Wing Man/our own research of home grown solutions for the fleet like Radar or Missile for Thunders and PAF's NGF/FGF etc etc.

While we compare the Thunder viz a viz Rafale; I observe that we are far ahead in strategy in this area. Have we noticed that why some of Indian analyst says that IAF is still stuck with kinetic weapon system/strategy while PAF is far ahead in the field with almost 6 to 8 years lead? Actually, we are looking at a whole battlefield system designed with connectivity and flexibility whereby dedicated platform do have authority to take over and command the shots/moves or maneuvers. We aren't matching a single platform with platform to counter. We are actually may be looking at a whole sum of game plan and a system which incorporates all the assets including, Thunder (all the blocks), Flacons (all the blocks), Mirages (all the blocks), ASW assets, Navy & Army's assets including helis and surface to surface missile launch platforms etc etc being integrated to a system (A whole new platform) which will work as a single command to press enemy harder and harder to choke in the end.

I am not an authority to make such claims or my opinions shall not be taken as some inside news or leak at all. This is all what I observed. If a commoner like us can show some uncertainty and dismay that PAF or Navy or Army is seen like a sitting duck, on the same time we need to understand that how Military is so confident and even shows the muscle in different manners whereby enemy is still busy with more & more shopping but still dissatisfied or feeling the mistrust. Name the platforms individually and we will find ourselves being short for current situation to which, I am indeed not including the future of threats. But, the way I see and observe things, no one is sitting idle but in-fact we are ahead in strategy as well as preparation and so in offensive defence. The rumors of Chinese Platform or any other new inductions, were nothing but rumors by different people. Sometimes, such rumors are productive and a message to a different party which is not even mentioned in such chatters. That brings actually something good at table for sure but not every time.

JF-17 Thunder Block-III provides the weapons that we need in view of Rafale acquisition but on the same time, Block-III is not going to perform like a lone warrior in this scenario. This evolution will actually strengthen the system which will play the final music with all the sticks in hand for disposal. Imagine an AESA on Block-III is all seeing for whole fleet, Falcons are all seeing things & so their armaments, is to be at disposal and Mirages and all. What I am seeing is actually be it PAF, Navy or Army; we are looking at new dimension of warfare which includes hard and soft kill capability given on any day or time.

Block-III is here and good enough to negate current threat and there is coming the 5th Gen which in my opinion will be like, we are still ahead of enemy and will remain ahead of enemy who had a plan to dry us in shopping but caught itself in surprise and trying everything at hand to match which needs years to come close to PAF. By the time, enemy does so, I am feeling like we will be seeing a new platform i.e. 5th Generation with PAF and history will repeat itself in the same manners that enemy will be drying out to match the capability or pose any threat or have an upper hand. Currently, it is a check mate for me leaving the enemy lost in thought to shop more and more. No doubt that India is preparing well and spending a lot but the way public might be seeing Pakistan Armed Forces sitting idle, could be the result of less of information available in public domain. The information includes whether any purchase or capability of current weapons systems. Does that make us vulnerable? I don't see that.

My apologies in advance if this seems to be an unbearable rant for some but we are here to speak our hearts out with mind.
Beautifully written, with reason and logic, and a hint of positivity, something that seems to be in short supply among many of our members.

Stay blessed
 

Marker

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I agree with your altered stance. But here is my tirade on PAF's acquisition prcess.

Generally, PAF's problem is not what it is happy with (because that's mostly unavailable) but what it has to be happy with (make do with). As much as the problem is from suppliers' end it is also of the making of the Pakistani military. Internal austerity and budgetary reallocation within the armed forces could ensure a steady acquistion of qualitative assets from the U.S. or any of the European suppliers, with the exception of France. The assets acquired would of course come in small numbers and gradually build up. But clearly that will not happen. So, the logical conclusion always leads us to a single source: China. In this regard we have counted almost all the eggs & none have hatched. FC-20, J-11, J-15, J-16, JH-7, etc ... you name it, we have rumored it, and none of it has happened. I was quite young when Musharraf visited China, toured CAC & decided to buy around 36 FC-20s. I am old now & I see no FC-20s. Lacking funds, we must be cautious about factoring FC-31 into the equation as well. That is unless, we sell a part of country's resources &/or economy to the Chinese in exchange for few FC-31 units. This would not settle well with us, the ordinary population, though.

What bothers me the most is that the PAF has had an opportunity to draw plans for future acquisitions, including contingencies, since the early 2000s when the IAF presented a request for 200+ fighter aircraft (initially Mirage 2000-5). But we went for handful of F-16s. Once the plan for inducting good number of F-16s fell in the ditch the PAF essentially sat tight to watch the show. It still had time when the MMRCA competition began ... but, sitting tight. Then, India narrowed down the MMRCA ... sitting tight. Rafale selected ... sitting tight. Rafale inducted ... sitting tight. This is essentially the mentality that has plagued Pakistan since the beginning, especially when it comes to acquisitions for PAF & PN. To summarise for these two branches: get something mufta, sasta, chalta (second-hand) or on karza, otherwise ... sit tight.

The only people to break the patterns of dismissiveness and creepy acquisitions for the PAF were ZA Bhutto & Zia Ul Haq. Bhutto inherited broken armed forces unable to squeak thus managed to priotisie air force modernization over others without fuss. Zia inherited Bhutto's air force modernization plan and went along with it because the aircraft in question were Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA) = extended artilleries in the air. But luck being on his side, the F-16s became available. So ... unless we have a civilian leader who is willing to step up on the acquisitions for the PAF & PN and a military leader who is able to see that PAF & PN modernization is necessary for the success of overall military operations & war planning we might not see an acquisition worthy of national confidence.

Then there is the JF-17 school of thought. Sure it is a very good induction, formidable asset in its own right. But lets face it, it was designed to be a second-tier fighter & that is what it continues to be. Block-III may change - perhaps even become a game changer - that but the vacuum for a 5th gen. aircraft persists. Azm is one of the eggs that has not hatched & is not going to anywhere in the near future. So lets not count that.

Given the opportunity, PAF would again jump onto F-16s above everything else. If that happens, we can't say what the make/version/model is going to be but it is likely to be a mix of new & used aircraft, with used out numbering new by a big margin. Would they suffice for deep penetration strikes? I cannot say, but the likely answer is NO. So, the only other makeup for the problem is JF-17s laced with A2G ammunition and supported by an aerial refueling aircraft for the purpose.

I hope I am proven wrong for much of my tirade above.
Why PAF need deep penetration strike capability?

IAF do not possess any long range strike air platform. Most of the IAF air bases are located within 1000 - 1500 km from Pakistani border.

Unless Pakistan Military changes its doctrine and opt to advance inside Indian territory, which I do not see a viable strategy considering the current capacity, Pakistan Military is having enough fire power to keep Indian Armed Forces in their side of border.

Though JF-17 payload carrying capacity is less than F-16 but its combat range is fair enough ie +1300 km.
Furthermore, lethality, range and precision of weapons deployed will matter the outcome. Therefore, PAF may focus more on weapon upgradation and development and Project AZM.

Meanwhile, PAF may look into the following options:
1. Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian).
2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.

Any of these options will ensure increased payload capacity and combat range.
 

jupiter2007

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Feb 19, 2007
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Why PAF need deep penetration strike capability?

IAF do not possess any long range strike air platform. Most of the IAF air bases are located within 1000 - 1500 km from Pakistani border.

Unless Pakistan Military changes its doctrine and opt to advance inside Indian territory, which I do not see a viable strategy considering the current capacity, Pakistan Military is having enough fire power to keep Indian Armed Forces in their side of border.

Though JF-17 payload carrying capacity is less than F-16 but its combat range is fair enough ie +1300 km.
Furthermore, lethality, range and precision of weapons deployed will matter the outcome. Therefore, PAF may focus more on weapon upgradation and development and Project AZM.

Meanwhile, PAF may look into the following options:
1. Scaled up JF-17 with a bigger engine (Western or Russian).
2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.

Any of these options will ensure increased payload capacity and combat range.
2. Scaled up JF-17 with twin RD-93MA engines.”

😂 it’s like building a new twin engine fighter.
 

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