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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Trailer23

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Plus J-10 C rumor's were always there.
Bhai jaan, is there any Aircraft that hasn't been rumored in the calendar year 2020?

[Covid ke waja yaha say sab farig baithay howay thay]​

Aside from the F-16's, every Chinese Military Jet had been rumored/covered extensively here, other forums, YouTube, facebook, f#*kin' Twitter etc.

And you'd be surprised that all those rumors were coming from pretty much the same sources - regardless the platform used.

And yes, we all contributed to add fuel to the fire.

Now, lets say J-15 or J-16 were coming, you'd be making the EXACT SAME statement, wouldn't you...?

Personally, I don't think we can be in a position to be placing orders for both J-10's & F-16's. I'm pretty sure that our Economic situation prevents us from doing so. But yes, we've all said this that something needs to be done & we are currently light-years away from Project AZM.

Let me just say one thing in regard to the F-16's, and that is entirely depending on how Biden and Congress reacts to Pakistan asking for F-16's.
a. If they approve, we could get some used ones & we could talk about Viper upgrades and all the add-ons once its approved.
b. However, if you or anyone else here is dreaming of Block 72's, know one thing that they won't be ordered & delivered in 2021, 2022, 2023 - all the way up to 2027. NATO & friendly Nations with deep pockets come first - and so they should as they are in the waiting list. This isn't Habib Bank, where you can cut the queue to get ahead to the Teller. Also, in 4 Years time, Trump could be back in Office and we know how he could just stop and delay the order.

What does that mean for Pakistan? Wasted years when we could in that period have 3-4 Squadrons of some Chinese Fighter Jet, even if it has to be the J-10.

Think where India will be in 2025 in numbers? They're already getting like 19 MiG-29's from Russia for dirt-cheap price tag. Plus, by then they'll have more Rafales & would have added further Su-30's.

So, here is how I see it.

1. See if you can grab any used-F-16's if they are willing to deliver 'em within 12 Months. Block 72's can be considered.
-Also consider adding some Chinese Fighter Jet that compliments the JF-17.
2. If the first point fails, how many options do you think PAF will have?
And I would hate to waste my breath talking about EFT, Rafales, Gripen, Su-'s & MiG's.
 

Marker

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But please don't put J-10C & the word 'Free' in the same conversation. Not certain if 'throw away price' could even be considered.

Its not unheard of that an Air Force sell their jets dirt cheap. Israeli Air Force just unloaded bulk of their F-16 A/B's to some private company in Canada that will operate 'em as Aggressors.
There is a possibility that PAF may get some "free lease" air weapon platforms for defense of sea shore and CPEC under Chinese AID program.

Which platform will be selected is a million dollar question and may be a big surprise for all PDF members. We must realize that CPEC - Belt and Road Initiative is actually a lifeline for Chinese trade and businesses.
 

Trailer23

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There is a possibility that PAF may get some "free lease" air weapon platforms for defense of sea shore and CPEC under Chinese AID program.
Sir, possibilities are endless when banking your hopes.

But don't you think we've already exhausted all the resources out of China. I mean if we now ask for :pleasantry:free lease:pleasantry: air weapon platforms, the Chinese are gonna end up thinking what have they gotten themselves into.

Question has to be raised that at what point are we gonna end up standing on our own 2-feet & stop using the China-card. They were already Bankrolling the entire CPEC Project & recently it was announced that they'd be financing 90% of the ML-1 Railway project + the Dams.

Why not just hand them the whole Country 'cause we're incapable to do things on our own after 7 decades.
 

denel

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Sir, possibilities are endless when banking your hopes.

But don't you think we've already exhausted all the resources out of China. I mean if we now ask for :pleasantry:free lease:pleasantry: air weapon platforms, the Chinese are gonna end up thinking what have they gotten themselves into.

Question has to be raised that at what point are we gonna end up standing on our own 2-feet & stop using the China-card. They were already Bankrolling the entire CPEC Project & recently it was announced that they'd be financing 90% of the ML-1 Railway project + the Dams.

Why not just hand them the whole Country 'cause we're incapable to do things on our own after 7 decades.
COrrect - Pak does not realise eventually these loans come due and SriLanka being the casing point of debt trap
 

Zarvan

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Bhai jaan, is there any Aircraft that hasn't been rumored in the calendar year 2020?

[Covid ke waja yaha say sab farig baithay howay thay]​

Aside from the F-16's, every Chinese Military Jet had been rumored/covered extensively here, other forums, YouTube, facebook, f#*kin' Twitter etc.

And you'd be surprised that all those rumors were coming from pretty much the same sources - regardless the platform used.

And yes, we all contributed to add fuel to the fire.

Now, lets say J-15 or J-16 were coming, you'd be making the EXACT SAME statement, wouldn't you...?

Personally, I don't think we can be in a position to be placing orders for both J-10's & F-16's. I'm pretty sure that our Economic situation prevents us from doing so. But yes, we've all said this that something needs to be done & we are currently light-years away from Project AZM.

Let me just say one thing in regard to the F-16's, and that is entirely depending on how Biden and Congress reacts to Pakistan asking for F-16's.
a. If they approve, we could get some used ones & we could talk about Viper upgrades and all the add-ons once its approved.
b. However, if you or anyone else here is dreaming of Block 72's, know one thing that they won't be ordered & delivered in 2021, 2022, 2023 - all the way up to 2027. NATO & friendly Nations with deep pockets come first - and so they should as they are in the waiting list. This isn't Habib Bank, where you can cut the queue to get ahead to the Teller. Also, in 4 Years time, Trump could be back in Office and we know how he could just stop and delay the order.

What does that mean for Pakistan? Wasted years when we could in that period have 3-4 Squadrons of some Chinese Fighter Jet, even if it has to be the J-10.

Think where India will be in 2025 in numbers? They're already getting like 19 MiG-29's from Russia for dirt-cheap price tag. Plus, by then they'll have more Rafales & would have added further Su-30's.

So, here is how I see it.

1. See if you can grab any used-F-16's if they are willing to deliver 'em within 12 Months. Block 72's can be considered.
-Also consider adding some Chinese Fighter Jet that compliments the JF-17.
2. If the first point fails, how many options do you think PAF will have?
And I would hate to waste my breath talking about EFT, Rafales, Gripen, Su-'s & MiG's.
EFT have been offered several times, it's our leadership which didn't went ahead. Secondly arrival of Biden Government will make it clear whether we can get block 72 or not. As for J 10 C, I really hope it's not just two squadrons instead we go big this time.
 

Trailer23

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EFT have been offered several times, it's our leadership which didn't went ahead.
Is there any evidence to suggest that it was truly offered (several times). I'm sorry, but unless there is irrefutable proof like an article in a Newspaper and/or magazine - i'm not buying it.
Secondly arrival of Biden Government will make it clear whether we can get block 72 or not.
As I mentioned earlier, its not about Biden.
Even if he/they approve, when do you think you will be receiving them at the earliest?

Here is a scenario...
1. Biden approves.
2. We wait 4+ Years.
3. 2025 - Trump is back.

Now the first thing that nut will do is reverse pretty much everything Biden does do.

So, where does that leave PAF. Empty handed once again just because we're hell bent on acquiring Vipers.

I hope to God that i'm wrong, but we've been jerked 'round one to many times for these jets.
As for J 10 C, I really hope it's not just two squadrons instead we go big this time.
Well, I don't really know what's going on between PAF & China - and lets be honest, no one here does.

So lets wait & see for the official word.
 

alphapak

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EFT have been offered several times, it's our leadership which didn't went ahead. Secondly arrival of Biden Government will make it clear whether we can get block 72 or not. As for J 10 C, I really hope it's not just two squadrons instead we go big this time.
I hope PAF has learnt a lesson from the Pressler amendment, time has come to move on from
the F16's. If PAF does go for J10C then that will be the final nail for the F16s.

Former Air Chief Sohail Aman mentioned in one of his speeches that he rejected the offer of F16's
because of the conditions attached with the offer.
 

GriffinsRule

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Any money spent on J-10 will be less money available to buy more Block IIIs as well as invest in AZM. Priorities should be given to the latter, but buying new types in the fleet.
 

Zarvan

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Is there any evidence to suggest that it was truly offered (several times). I'm sorry, but unless there is irrefutable proof like an article in a Newspaper and/or magazine - i'm not buying it.

As I mentioned earlier, its not about Biden.
Even if he/they approve, when do you think you will be receiving them at the earliest?

Here is a scenario...
1. Biden approves.
2. We wait 4+ Years.
3. 2025 - Trump is back.

Now the first thing that nut will do is reverse pretty much everything Biden does do.

So, where does that leave PAF. Empty handed once again just because we're hell bent on acquiring Vipers.

I hope to God that i'm wrong, but we've been jerked 'round one to many times for these jets.

Well, I don't really know what's going on between PAF & China - and lets be honest, no one here does.

So lets wait & see for the official word.
Any one who follows these matters knows it. Italy and UK an Spain kept trying, but in the end no deal took place. UK also offered several other weapon systems including Naval. If deal is done Trump won't stop it in 2025. Also pandemic ends and Biden does well Trump won't return in 2025. And PAF will never let block 72 offer get slide. And no we won't be waiting for four years to get our hands on BLOCK 72. Even if get J 10 C in large numbers and let's suppose that we even we get J 16 for that matter and JF 17 BLOCK III, still Pakistan will try it's best to get few squadrons of F 16 block 72.
I hope PAF has learnt a lesson from the Pressler amendment, time has come to move on from
the F16's. If PAF does go for J10C then that will be the final nail for the F16s.

Former Air Chief Sohail Aman mentioned in one of his speeches that he rejected the offer of F16's
because of the conditions attached with the offer.
For PAF it hasn't. Even if they get best from China and in large numbers, love for F 16 will always be there and if we are offered block 72 we won't reject it. In fact would immediately grab the offer and make a deal.
 

Marker

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Sir, possibilities are endless when banking your hopes.

But don't you think we've already exhausted all the resources out of China. I mean if we now ask for :pleasantry:free lease:pleasantry: air weapon platforms, the Chinese are gonna end up thinking what have they gotten themselves into.

Question has to be raised that at what point are we gonna end up standing on our own 2-feet & stop using the China-card. They were already Bankrolling the entire CPEC Project & recently it was announced that they'd be financing 90% of the ML-1 Railway project + the Dams.

Why not just hand them the whole Country 'cause we're incapable to do things on our own after 7 decades.
Members of PDF must realize that we are neither decision makers, nor we can directly influence the decisions of our Pakistani civil and military leadership.

We also know the current economic condition of Pakistan. The government is barely managing its financial resources to run the country.

Till the time, Pakistan do not get rid of corruption from the very grass root level to the top leadership, there will be no noticeable economical progress. Foreign investment are temporary relief but never a hallmark of progress. Just take the example of Karachi steel mill-a strategic infra structure founded in 1960s, is now becoming a history, why because of some selfish, disloyal and corrupt political leaders of Pakistan.

Pakistan need to eliminate the corruption from the society starting from Judiciary, law enforcing agencies, bureaucratic government infrastructure, political infrastructure, local government infrastructure and military.
Elimination of corruption followed by good governance will then ensure prosperity and success of Pakistan.

Till now Pakistani leadership is taking advantage of Pakistan's strategic Geographical location. US, China and even Russia wanted to have access of this land due to its strategic location. Though CPEC is bringing huge investment from China, but it will also give economic advantage to China in long run. Actually CPEC is win-win deal with China. However, it depends on the leadership of Pakistan to exploit this advantage for Pakistan instead of filling their own private vaults.

In order to safeguard CPEC, China may provide few weapon systems required to protect Pakistani sea shore and CPEC land route from China border to Gwadar.

inducting a new weapon system in PAF using current available Pakistani financial resources is very remote, however, Chinese military aid to Pakistan is very much possible.
 
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Trailer23

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Any one who follows these matters knows it.
So, in simple words, there is no proof to suggest that there was an offer ever extended. Perhaps a conversation could've taken during some Air Show in Farnborough, but then again I had seen people from Lockheed Martin sitting at the PAC Pavillion last year too. It doesn't mean anything.
If deal is done Trump won't stop it in 2025. Also pandemic ends and Biden does well Trump won't return in 2025.
Are we talking about the same man who stopped our funds the minute he came in Power 4-Years ago? Okay. And please, no offence - but no one here can predict what will become of the next Presidential Elections. Lets get by this new one first. If history has taught us anything, is that no US President is worthy of being trusted.
And no we won't be waiting for four years to get our hands on BLOCK 72.
This is the most interesting statement you've made thus far. I would like for you to please enlighten me/us as to what it means.
a. PAF won't wait for 4-Years and move on to something else.
b. PAF has no intentions of waiting and demands to get the Block 72's ahead of all other Nations whom have placed orders back in 2018, 2019 and earlier 2020.

I ask, because if its the latter, then you're as delusional as those brothers whom we all witnessed celebrating, give high-5's, mithai's and [Mubarak-baats] because they got word that some or all Chinese Jets had arrived at PAF Base's covertly.
Even if get J 10 C in large numbers and let's suppose that we even we get J 16 for that matter and JF 17 BLOCK III, still Pakistan will try it's best to get few squadrons of F 16 block 72.
I am not going in the conversation of Pakistan getting J-10's. And I am certainly not interested in entertaining fanboy wet-dreams of J-16's. I prefer to be realistic & keep my feet planted on the ground.

Yes, PAF will try its best to keep the hopes of F-16's (used or Block 72) alive, but at what cost. Do they plan on another decade+ to pass by without inducting any new Vipers (yet again).
For PAF it hasn't. Even if they get best from China and in large numbers, love for F 16 will always be there and if we are offered block 72 we won't reject it. In fact would immediately grab the offer and make a deal.
Yes, the love for the F-16's is there for most of us. Even the Members who were against the F-16's were proud of what it did during Ops. Swift Retort - so that can't be taken away.
 

Zarvan

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So, in simple words, there is no proof to suggest that there was an offer ever extended. Perhaps a conversation could've taken during some Air Show in Farnborough, but then again I had seen people from Lockheed Martin sitting at the PAC Pavillion last year too. It doesn't mean anything.

Are we talking about the same man who stopped our funds the minute he came in Power 4-Years ago? Okay. And please, no offence - but no one here can predict what will become of the next Presidential Elections. Lets get by this new one first. If history has taught us anything, is that no US President is worthy of being trusted.

This is the most interesting statement you've made thus far. I would like for you to please enlighten me/us as to what it means.
a. PAF won't wait for 4-Years and move on to something else.
b. PAF has no intentions of waiting and demands to get the Block 72's ahead of all other Nations whom have placed orders back in 2018, 2019 and earlier 2020.

I ask, because if its the latter, then you're as delusional as those brothers whom we all witnessed celebrating, give high-5's, mithai's and [Mubarak-baats] because they got word that some or all Chinese Jets had arrived at PAF Base's covertly.

I am not going in the conversation of Pakistan getting J-10's. And I am certainly not interested in entertaining fanboy wet-dreams of J-16's. I prefer to be realistic & keep my feet planted on the ground.

Yes, PAF will try its best to keep the hopes of F-16's (used or Block 72) alive, but at what cost. Do they plan on another decade+ to pass by without inducting any new Vipers (yet again).

Yes, the love for the F-16's is there for most of us. Even the Members who were against the F-16's were proud of what it did during Ops. Swift Retort - so that can't be taken away.
What proof you want ?? You want me to show video or bring audio for you ? Are you even for real or here to just joke around ??? No, not just a simple conversation taking place around Farnborough dude. Their defence ministers during their visits made the offer. The representatives of the company made the offer. Even in one or two case their Prime Ministers themselves brought up the issue. Including UK prime minister David Cameron when he visited Pakistan during Nawaz Shareef time. You don't prefer to be realistic you prefer to be in denial. Same people were in denial when it was told VT 4 is coming. So I give a dam about those who want to live in the dark world of denial only to be proven wrong over and over again and still choose to be in denial. As for J-10 C it's pretty much INSHALLAH a done deal. Also after giving access to Russia to Gawader and don't even rule out J-16, although not a very high possibility.

As far as F-16s are concerned, their love in PAF is not going anywhere and I know of some negotiations which have taken place for them. So if Biden government also shows willingness we very well can get a deal for few squadrons of Block 72.
 

Vapnope

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Imagine being so called "major non NATO ally" and only get 18 F16s that too not the most advanced ones. Someday Pakistan should thought over it that why we have been kept away from the potent weapon system by our "Ally".
 

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