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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Armchair

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How about if instead of getting a new fighter, PAF upgrades older fighters with AESA radars and EW suites?
1. JF-17 Block 2
2. Perhaps Turkish AESA on ADF F-16s
3. An AESA for Mirages meant for A2A and add PL15 / SD-10
4. Even a small AESA for F-7PG and arm them with SD-10.

Increase production rate by increasing to three shifts a day. Compensate for Rafale further with LR-SAM and Turkish ground based EW systems.
 

Ali_Baba

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The Embraer lineage 1000 stopped being manufactured by Embraer in August 2020. It is a failed product.

If PN does select this platform, it will be quite a stupid decision. Long term support and cost of the platform will have massive issues as there are not enough units of the platform to support a critical mass of cheap spare parts over the lifespan of the product. Manufacturer support will be expensive as there will be no economies of scale. There are only 28 units of this platform in total !!!


It will be a very stupid decision by PN if they go for this platform as the basis for anti-submarine/surface warface and AEW&C in the future ... they really do need to revisit their decision if they are selecting the "Embraer lineage 1000".
 
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GriffinsRule

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The Embraer lineage 1000 stopped being manufactured by Embraer in August 2020. It is a failed product.

If PN does select this platform, it will be quite a stupid decision. Long term support and cost of the platform will have massive issues as there are not enough units of the platform to support a critical mass of cheap spare parts over the lifespan of the product. Manufacturer support will be expensive as there will be no economies of scale. There are only 28 units of this platform in total !!!


It will be a very stupid decision by PN if they go for this platform as the basis for anti-submarine/surface warface and AEW&C in the future ... they really do need to revisit their decision if they are selecting the "Embraer lineage 1000".
Yes definitely not the smartest move but again, there is no real indication of what jet it is going to be and any rumors of a contract signed already are just that, rumors. We have 100s of pages of posts on threads based on similar rumors so I am not buying it.
And even if PN was to buy 1 or 2 aircraft here and there in a piecemeal fashion and then upgrade them in a similar slow fashion of 1 every 2 years, it will take over a decade just to get all of them in the fleet. We have precedence of that already with the ATR-72 and given the fiscal limits of the budget, I don't foresee anything different when a more expensive and complicated LRMPA is concerned.
And as for P-3C Orion is concerned, that aircraft is still the bread and butter of most ASW in most navies around the world, including some very advanced ones. And the fact we got one of these Orions back in service just this month after a 2year overhaul is a clear indication to me that this aircraft is not going anywhere anytime soon in PN service. Just to put into perspective, PN is still flying its fleet of SA-319B, manufactured in the 1960s and early 70s that we purchased used from the Dutch and French. Pakistan will squeeze out any life from an airframe is already operates ... its not due to our love for antiques, but because they do a decent enough job and getting new toys breaks the bank. There is a reason we bought used Sea Kings instead of looking to replace those with newer far more capable aircraft, because they are good enough. Once that changes as India retires its fleet and acquires from S-70s etc, we will then try to catch up.
 

Marker

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PAF just like IAF has significant number of old jets required to be replaced so an economical fighter with decent capabilities can have a chance. More over there are reports that China is now inducting the J10 latest versions with domestic engine. We cannot ascertain the capabilities of Chinese engines/gadgets until they are analysed by experts mostly inducted by some other country.
There are number of reasons why I do not favor induction of J-10 in PAF fleet.
1. The cost is about +$30 m a piece.
2. Engine downtime, serviceability and reliability are under question. (Both Chinese and Russians engines). Unless Russians agree to provide AL-41F-1S.
3. A single engine fighter.
4. Fully integrated with Chinese EW/ECM package. No room for integrating other foreign or local weapons and electronic solutions.
5. If PAF induct a new system to replace Mirage fleet, then it will be in large quantity, ie +150 aircraft.

Instead of buying J10, PAF should invest in FC-31 program and get some crucial technology transfer for Project Azm.
FC-31 with 2 RD-93MAs is a better and cheaper option in stealth category. Meanwhile induction of JF-17 Block 3s may be expedited to fill the technology gap.
 

Armchair

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Actually the Lineage 1000 is a conversion of one of Embraers most successful lines of aircraft. Actually one of the most successful regional jets in contemporary history.

Always shocked at how little some people know and want to act the expert and start typing away

The Embraer lineage 1000 stopped being manufactured by Embraer in August 2020. It is a failed product.

If PN does select this platform, it will be quite a stupid decision. Long term support and cost of the platform will have massive issues as there are not enough units of the platform to support a critical mass of cheap spare parts over the lifespan of the product. Manufacturer support will be expensive as there will be no economies of scale. There are only 28 units of this platform in total !!!


It will be a very stupid decision by PN if they go for this platform as the basis for anti-submarine/surface warface and AEW&C in the future ... they really do need to revisit their decision if they are selecting the "Embraer lineage 1000".
 

denel

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How about if instead of getting a new fighter, PAF upgrades older fighters with AESA radars and EW suites?
1. JF-17 Block 2
2. Perhaps Turkish AESA on ADF F-16s
3. An AESA for Mirages meant for A2A and add PL15 / SD-10
4. Even a small AESA for F-7PG and arm them with SD-10.

Increase production rate by increasing to three shifts a day. Compensate for Rafale further with LR-SAM and Turkish ground based EW systems.
Mirage platform is hopelessly dead in its present config; only a handful are good for strike config in overall numbers. You need to restate - a revised Mirage either in form of cheetah or kfir is required. But there is no monies for this venture. OPtion 2 is the continue working on JF-17B to a dedicated strike platform/specialist and evolve it.

PG day's are numbered as well; for point defence it is fine; but the nose has no room. the footprint required to support an AESA is not feasible; even the chinese have stopped production. PG is the ultimate evolution - but alas if it had HMS then it would be cherry on the cake..

JF17 production rate needs to be stepped up; covid plus economic and geopolitical uncertainty not withstanding.

If the isreali relations do normalise - then there is an alternative AESA available right away for F-16s not to mention for other platforms.
 
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Armchair

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Mirage platform is hopelessly dead in its present config; only a handful are good for strike config in overall numbers. You need to restate - a revised Mirage either in form of cheetah or kfir is required. But there is no monies for this venture. OPtion 2 is the continue working on JF-17B to a dedicated strike platform/specialist and evolve it.

PG day's are numbered as well; for point defence it is fine; but the nose has no room. the footprint required to support an AESA is not feasible; even the chinese have stopped production. PG is the ultimate evolution - but alas if it had HMS then it would be cherry on the cake..

JF17 production rate needs to be stepped up; covid plus economic and geopolitical uncertainty not withstanding.

If the isreali relations do normalise - then there is an alternative AESA available right away for F-16s not to mention for other platforms.
Hi,
I think there should be at least 50 strike Mirages available, and have the requisite precision strike capability.
Other than this the Mirages for A2A are there which do have the space in the nose for a new radar.
Spare parts, new airframes even are plenty for F-7PG and cheap. With the Grifo radar, they have a 50 km detection range capability. If we replace the pulse doppler Grifo, perhaps a 100 km range AESA would be possible. Integrate a jamming pod and you have a reasonable point defense fighter that can fire SD-10s. Basically something like an IAF Bison but better and more maneuverable.

HMS is now available from China in terms of the PL-10. Simply up-arming A2A Mirages and F-7PG with SD-10 and HOBS would massively increase their capability and allow them to remain relevant for at least 10-20 more years.
 

denel

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Hi,
I think there should be at least 50 strike Mirages available, and have the requisite precision strike capability.
Other than this the Mirages for A2A are there which do have the space in the nose for a new radar.
Spare parts, new airframes even are plenty for F-7PG and cheap. With the Grifo radar, they have a 50 km detection range capability. If we replace the pulse doppler Grifo, perhaps a 100 km range AESA would be possible. Integrate a jamming pod and you have a reasonable point defense fighter that can fire SD-10s. Basically something like an IAF Bison but better and more maneuverable.

HMS is now available from China in terms of the PL-10. Simply up-arming A2A Mirages and F-7PG with SD-10 and HOBS would massively increase their capability and allow them to remain relevant for at least 10-20 more years.
No friend, the nose in PG is really small you will not get more than 60km in real world. the diameter is too small. This is why JL2000 was a better evolution as it allows more space.
Let PG do what it is best - point defence with but with HMS.
 

Signalian

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it's simply too expensive deep strike fighter bombers need escort fighters too
This deep strike doctrine brings the important Q, What's the objective - Kashmir or Calcutta (Kolkata) ?

If Pakistan truly wants to liberate Kashmir, then there are thousands of targets present at a stones throw from LOC in IOK. Indian Army strong points like bunkers, tunnels and under ground infrastructure, supply dumps and ammo depots, communication/command centres and installations, artillery positions, vehicle sheds etc. Even non ROSE mirages can do the job with their good loadout as well as diverse weapon carrying capacity, F-16's providing A2A top cover with AMRAAMs and specialised A2G role from JF-17 like EW (disrupting enemy Air Ops Comms), DEAD (hunting SAMs), air interdiction behind enemy lines to stop enemy reinforcements from pouring into the battle ground. If PAF drops ordinance on every bunker softening targets by wounding or killing Indian soldiers, this will save alot of lives for Pakistan troops who will be advancing through AJK into IOK. This will also save save precious time too. Instead of utilizing 6 hours to clear a peak, it may be possible to do it under 2 hours with constant support from PAF strikes on that peak.

For the lovers of deep strike (800-1000+ km), when BMs enter the scenario after few days or weeks, strategic targets inside India can be taken out without losing any aircrafts., otherwise there is critical deep air support (air interdiction) requirement for PA forces in IOK. A ground formation, be it infantry or armor can last much longer if its supported from the air through strikes and keeping the skies clear. The last thing PA would want is giving up captured area through counter attacks by enemy ground forces arriving as reinforcements. In steep mountain terrain, tanks cannot support Infantry, which is why close air support (Mirage3/5) becomes profound. PA Gunships also cannot operate in enemy territory without air cover from PAF. The shoulder carried SAMs of PA may not be able to target high altitude IAF bombers, therefore PAF is required to keep skies clear for advancing PA forces in IOK. It also has to be considered that there is no sense in throwing CMs or BMs into IOK while using PAF aircrafts to fly all over India to strike far flung targets like Mumbai. The constant pounding through precision strike capability of aircraft is required in IOK, not in Mumbai. Kashmir has to be liberated, not destroyed. PA will be operating in IOK where oppressed Kashmiri muslims are already residing, thus targets will require precision strikes from PAF aircrafts, not volleys of air/ground launched CMs to scorch massive amount of areas.

As seen from the lens of PAF, all the three major types of PAF aircrafts (Mirage 3/5, F-16 and JF-17) fit the profile amicably. JF-17 with its MR competence can fit many configs for strike role while it carries long range BVR to protect itself in IAF's skies. Next, introduction of a stealth fighter would be a hallmark for PAF with new air combat doctrines and capabilities. So far its JF-17 which has replaced F-7 in a training squadron. Lets see which new type of aircraft replaces other F-7 squadrons.
 

ziaulislam

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Reality is we have the money. Where you think money came to buy 8 submarines and 8 frigates and corvettes and 10 jets to replace P3C orion and building missile boats and boats for coast guards and others. A single or or even two squadrons of EuroFighter cause less than 8 submarines which we are buying. So money is there and things will be bought on their time.
No they dont
8subs, 4 frigates, 4 milgem & LRMP will cost less than 5b$(1.6+1.2+1.5+0.6~) in next 15 years

2 squardons of typhoon will cost 9b$

Airforce is spending ~10b $in next 10 yrs, 4-5b$ to get 200+ thunders, huge amounts of other subsystem and is probably already getting a chinese system( think either j10 or j31)
I know his Twitter ID also, he always searching these kind of post on Twitter too..

China will never offer J-20 to Pakistan, so stop even thinking about that
FC-31 still needed 5 years more to be a matured platform like J-20 for mass production, so we need to wait 7,8 years more for that
J-10s are good but chines cant sale it to us with Russian engine, their own Engine is not mature enough so its too risky to have this on a single engine jet like J-10s
F-16s are always available for us, Block70, 72 even F-16V but on hard cash no soft loan like before, and honestly F-16 block 70+ is the only option to deal with Rafael, we need Chinese help to get soft loan for at least 36 F-16s within one or two years or a big humiliation is waiting for us in the hands of Rafaels
JF-17s are like our 660CC mehran car, AC lagaya to speed bhi kam aor maintenance ka kharcha bhi double.. Jo marzi ha sath add on karo rahy ge woh mehran
Ws 10 is being mass produced for a decade sure it might have higher maintenance (MIGHT) but so does the ws-7 of f7p/pg

Noone knows about f31 whether its 2 years or 5 years away
 

Invicta

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In modern times we don't need dedicated fighter bombers it's simply too expensive deep strike fighter bombers need escort fighters too we don't have that kind of money why not use long range SOWs and cruise missiles to hit targets instead of risking our aircraft... Indians have alot of SAM systems including s400( on it's way) so why not invest in drone swarms or something to just overwhelm their air defense systems.. the only realistic option is j 10C let's see what PAF decides ...
Whilst what you say is true to a light weight fighter, a plane like EF2000 is a true swing-role fighter which means it has the capability and potential loadout options to be a bomber and its own escort as situation demands change. J10C is good too it gives a few more options and opens new mission possibilities.
 

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