What's new

New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
291
0
452
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
A
Why do we even need typhoon when our 50 year old mirage can drop RAAD 2 with 550 to 600 km range on India... why not simply invest in JF 17 block 3 and increase the number from 50 to 100 ( 100 fighters with PL 15 + PL 10E HMD AESA EW and data links ) all of the su 30mki mig 29 and Mirage fleet will be useless because their bvr missiles lack range which PL 15 has ( 150km just like su 30mki couldn't engage F16s with Aim120C5s PL 15 has much longer range than Aim 120C5 ) ... our only problem will be 36 Rafael then which can be dealt with if we can send two block 3s for 1 Rafael along with our superior training tactics and force multipliers we will be fine I think.... so why invest 9 to 10 billion $ in typhoon when we can deal with them with our own fighter we only need to double production rate....
You got very good point about effectiveness of our mirages and PL15 range.
Problem here is block 3 is late and with PAC output rate and external orders, as planned production of block 3 will go till 2025.

How we will be sure that india not do any large scale misadventure for next 4 to 5 year.

We need solutions now (may in limited numbers) , best is J10x that will power PL15 and benefits as well, will compliment our block 3 aswell
Typhoon rafalae and gripen are way too expensive ..they are not even under discussion

Dicussion is probably between an f16 & chinese plateform

I doubt PAF is even going to consider new f16s but this might change with newer block70 price drop..
F16 will never get out of picture due to 2 reasons
  • PAF love for F16s
  • PaF pilot got skills and expertise in it after fyling for decades
 
Last edited:

GriffinsRule

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 18, 2015
2,189
4
3,028
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
A

You got very good point about effectiveness of our mirages and PL15 range.
Problem here is block 3 is late and with PAC output rate and external orders, as planned production of block 3 will go till 2025.

How we will be sure that india not do any large scale misadventure for next 4 to 5 year.

We need solutions now (may in limited numbers) , best is J10x that will power PL15 and benefits as well, will compliment our block 3 aswell

F16 will never get out of picture due to 2 reasons
  • PAF love for F16s
  • PaF pilot got skills and expertise in it after fyling for decades
How late is Block 3? I fail to understand your logic here ... you are saying we will have all our block till 2025 ... so in 5 years we will have the 50 we need. Yet, if we were to order whatever a J-10X is next month, we are unlikely to see the first place delivered until 2024...so how does it matter if India does an "adventure" in the next 4-5 years. You would rather have a brand new type of aircraft PAF has no idea about, or the one we have been flying for over a decade with no issues.
 

Signalian

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Aug 18, 2015
6,804
224
18,193
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Deep strike are not meant for JF17, also EF2000 provides a platform that can take role of the maritime security. JF17 is a good plane, designed to replace multiple other platforms that said it still has some limitations that even BLK3 cannot solve.
EF2K although a multirole platform but was initially conceived primarily in air to air role and later in air to ground role. JF-17 was conceived as a light fighter which now is a suitable multirole fighter. I am not aware if PAF has used "deep strike" term as requirement Or is actively looking for deep strike twin engine platform to join inventory. PAF is however interested in SOWs.

It has to be kept in mind that Pakistan has made BMs and CMs in ground to ground strike role for long range strikes. PAF has many other roles to perform with its aircrafts.

1 - Range
The refuelling tankers can solve that issue in many instances like CAPs for protecting Maritime patrol aircrafts. However, the strike radius cannot be exponentially increased. It has to be seen how PAF will manage wet pylons and centre line for fuel and SOW for strike in a certain mission config.

2 - Hardpoints
PAF seems satisfied with MERs and dual racks.

3 - Max Take off weight.
There was a discussion if the aircraft takes off with lesser fuel to compensate for weight of armament and then gets fully fuelled in the air.
 

Xone

FULL MEMBER
Oct 13, 2019
259
0
272
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
JF-17 has been a milestone in the PAF doctrine. it can be an Omni solution to all PAF needs. Looking for another fighter is the easiest way when you think of a special mission. but maintaining a large inventory of aircraft is not an easy task at all. this gives birth to a multirole fighter. JF-17 was conceived as a multirole fighter right from its inception.
so it can do any and every role that had and will come across it. Having a multirole fighter of your own gives you a unique advantage, you can mold it in any form specifically required for any mission demand. in the start, you only add or subtract, but later you try to multiply. you can use it in endless combinations and formulations. twin-engine means nothing more than two JF-17 combined together. block 3 will add power options to this set of formations.
 

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
291
0
452
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
How late is Block 3? I fail to understand your logic here ... you are saying we will have all our block till 2025 ... so in 5 years we will have the 50 we need. Yet, if we were to order whatever a J-10X is next month, we are unlikely to see the first place delivered until 2024...so how does it matter if India does an "adventure" in the next 4-5 years. You would rather have a brand new type of aircraft PAF has no idea about, or the one we have been flying for over a decade with no issues.
First of all, PAF pilots are trained on multiple Chinese plateform already time to time.

Scondly J10x order if show in public now or near future, means order already placed much before.. secondly j10 production will faster as it will totally Chinese based at CAC
So 2 sqr can easily available before end of 2021

Note block 3 , we only see one fyling prototype till date.... dont know when will final prototype will fly then production... so on
 

araz

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Jun 14, 2006
7,819
64
12,199
First of all, PAF pilots are trained on multiple Chinese plateform already time to time.

Scondly J10x order if show in public now or near future, means order already placed much before.. secondly j10 production will faster as it will totally Chinese based at CAC
So 2 sqr can easily available before end of 2021

Note block 3 , we only see one fyling prototype till date.... dont know when will final prototype will fly then production... so on
Firstly you need to provide evidence to-support your notion of PAF pilots being able to fly Chinese fighters. A piggy back on the rear seat is different from competency in flying.
Secondly even if I accept your view point then how do you propose we enter into a contract and have 2 squadrons (minimal numbers to make a difference) and develop techniques on the new plane in 5 years?
We know from the JFT experience that PAF was reluctant to pitch it into battle till-2018. How do you think PAF will fare with the new platform. I can bet you anything IAF will protect the Rafale till 2026 before pitching it into battle. So even if you had J10-it-wont be any good for 2-3 years post delivery.
 
Last edited:

jupiter2007

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 19, 2007
3,993
-1
2,742
First of all, PAF pilots are trained on multiple Chinese plateform already time to time.

Scondly J10x order if show in public now or near future, means order already placed much before.. secondly j10 production will faster as it will totally Chinese based at CAC
So 2 sqr can easily available before end of 2021

Note block 3 , we only see one fyling prototype till date.... dont know when will final prototype will fly then production... so on
You are 100% Correct. We don’t know that block 3 prototype flew last year will be the last and final prototype and it will go in production. If required, additional prototypes will be build and more testing will be perform until final product is ready for production.

As far as J-10x is concerned, based on the Speculation, If J-10x order was submitted last year (2019), we should see at least 12 of them in 2021.
 
Last edited:

Kingslayerr

FULL MEMBER
Sep 16, 2019
153
0
133
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Its been close to a year of watching this thread jump from f16s to j10s to j15s to jf17 and what not. Everyone is discussing the same thing over and over again. Im sorry if this hurts anyone's Feelings but this has now become a useless thread.
 

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
291
0
452
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
What ever option can be discussed of wished from EFT, Griphen even may some russian everybody thinking positive for Pakistan

But reality is hard that we don't have economy to afford all these on hard cash at all..

The only plateform we can get in this situation is of Chinese origin with soft and long term loans

Second reality is that we need some solid plateform as early as possible as enemies growing on all sides, JFT alone cannot be handle future, we need middle or heavyweight plateform
 

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
49,930
81
54,648
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
What ever option can be discussed of wished from EFT, Griphen even may some russian everybody thinking positive for Pakistan

But reality is hard that we don't have economy to afford all these on hard cash at all..

The only plateform we can get in this situation is of Chinese origin with soft and long term loans

Second reality is that we need some solid plateform as early as possible as enemies growing on all sides, JFT alone cannot be handle future, we need middle or heavyweight plateform
Reality is we have the money. Where you think money came to buy 8 submarines and 8 frigates and corvettes and 10 jets to replace P3C orion and building missile boats and boats for coast guards and others. A single or or even two squadrons of EuroFighter cause less than 8 submarines which we are buying. So money is there and things will be bought on their time.
 

araz

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Jun 14, 2006
7,819
64
12,199
Reality is we have the money. Where you think money came to buy 8 submarines and 8 frigates and corvettes and 10 jets to replace P3C orion and building missile boats and boats for coast guards and others. A single or or even two squadrons of EuroFighter cause less than 8 submarines which we are buying. So money is there and things will be bought on their time.
All these items you mention have been procured on a loan arranged by the banks from China. So the notion that hard currency was paid is incorrect. Currently we do not have the money to payback the interest on the loans we have taken and so we acquire more loans to aervice the loans. I dont know how this is assumed to mean that money for big buys is available. Other countries are unwilling to give us loans currently due to our financial woes and FATF sword. Plus if you are taking loans to survive from IMF how do you propose justifying to them spending 6-8 billion on an armament system.
A
 

Falcon26

FULL MEMBER
Dec 24, 2015
1,884
4
4,909
Country
United States
Location
United States
Reality is we have the money. Where you think money came to buy 8 submarines and 8 frigates and corvettes and 10 jets to replace P3C orion and building missile boats and boats for coast guards and others. A single or or even two squadrons of EuroFighter cause less than 8 submarines which we are buying. So money is there and things will be bought on their time.
Its not as much about money as it’s about financing. Pakistan gets favorable line of credit from the Chinese which takes the sting out of these multi-billion dollar deals with Beijing. Such financing arrangements aren’t readily available with the Europeans.
 

ARMalik

SENIOR MEMBER
Dec 7, 2017
3,226
4
6,128
Country
Australia
Location
Australia
Considering the present situation in the next 5 years;

1- Possibility of J-10s, JH-7, J-31 induction.

2- NO POSSIBILITY of any European fighter jet - Full Stop.

3- F-16s probably no option of additional jets due to tensions and mistrust in relations between the two countries.

4- No option of Russian jets.

In the next 10 years;
-High possibility of newer version of JF-17 or a entirely new home grown jet.
-More Chinese jets including J-20. And yes, China will allow it, there is no restriction on Pakistan regarding J-20.
 

Riz

SENIOR MEMBER
Jan 20, 2010
3,761
-1
5,729
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
The user I quoted has a history of believing in fake news on social media. He also believed that Indian army occupied Chamb and akhnoor dagger areas after 27 February 2019. I even made a thread to reject this fake news

As for India's spending. It still lags far behind from the threats that it faces from both Pakistan and China.
I know his Twitter ID also, he always searching these kind of post on Twitter too..
Considering the present situation in the next 5 years;

1- Possibility of J-10s, JH-7, J-31 induction.

2- NO POSSIBILITY of any European fighter jet - Full Stop.

3- F-16s probably no option of additional jets due to tensions and mistrust in relations between the two countries.

4- No option of Russian jets.

In the next 10 years;
-High possibility of newer version of JF-17 or a entirely new home grown jet.
-More Chinese jets including J-20. And yes, China will allow it, there is no restriction on Pakistan regarding J-20.
China will never offer J-20 to Pakistan, so stop even thinking about that
FC-31 still needed 5 years more to be a matured platform like J-20 for mass production, so we need to wait 7,8 years more for that
J-10s are good but chines cant sale it to us with Russian engine, their own Engine is not mature enough so its too risky to have this on a single engine jet like J-10s
F-16s are always available for us, Block70, 72 even F-16V but on hard cash no soft loan like before, and honestly F-16 block 70+ is the only option to deal with Rafael, we need Chinese help to get soft loan for at least 36 F-16s within one or two years or a big humiliation is waiting for us in the hands of Rafaels
JF-17s are like our 660CC mehran car, AC lagaya to speed bhi kam aor maintenance ka kharcha bhi double.. Jo marzi ha sath add on karo rahy ge woh mehran
 
Last edited:

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
49,930
81
54,648
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Its not as much about money as it’s about financing. Pakistan gets favorable line of credit from the Chinese which takes the sting out of these multi-billion dollar deals with Beijing. Such financing arrangements aren’t readily available with the Europeans.
The jets we are buying are not from China neither are MILGEM Corvettes or Damen. We are buying lot of stuff which is not from China. Who is giving credit for those ???
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 8, Members: 2, Guests: 6)


Top Bottom