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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Deino

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Just in case you missed my reply aimed to your post :

Is there any official statement from China that J-20 will not be sold or leased to Pakistan?
...
My opinions and inferences are based on reality. I may infer something wrong from available facts but whatever my inferences are, these are based on real facts.
As such first asked in return: Is there any official statement from China that J-20 COULD be sold or leased to Pakistan? IMO none and even if I'm not sure how official these are, all reports I know say it is not for sale and lease!

For the FC-31, I don't say it is impossible but I'm sure there will be not a full ToT and it won't be cheap.

As such hopes for the J-20 even by some sort of leasing is IMO pure wishful thinking. at least I don't know any facts that speak towards such an option.
 

PeacefulWar

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We all know that FC 31 is in testing phase. Exporting FC 31 is the Chinese intention. Their media is full of this information.
I think you have a lot things confused.
Your assumption that Chinese want to export arms desperately is simply wrong.
Also we can't simply say Chinese want or don't want as a whole.

Let's take FC-31 as example:

SAC - the company - of course want to export FC31.
But they are in no position to decide whether can export or not, not at all!

Then let's talk about China Gov, they don't care those money from arms export.
I can assure you that improving arms sales is the last thing to appear in their to-do list.

Last but not least, Chinese army, they are in general very conservative, they don't want to export any equipment that is in their service. It has changed a bit but still very conservative.
They are the biggest reason why China don't sell to much arms!
 

Marker

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I think you have a lot things confused.
Your assumption that Chinese want to export arms desperately is simply wrong.
Also we can't simply say Chinese want or don't want as a whole.

Let's take FC-31 as example:

SAC - the company - of course want to export FC31.
But they are in no position to decide whether can export or not, not at all!

Then let's talk about China Gov, they don't care those money from arms export.
I can assure you that improving arms sales is the last thing to appear in their to-do list.

Last but not least, Chinese army, they are in general very conservative, they don't want to export any equipment that is in their service. It has changed a bit but still very conservative.
They are the biggest reason why China don't sell to much arms!
I never stated in my statement that Chinese want to export arms desperately. This nation never show sign of desperation.

However, your remaining assertion about China is little out dated.
Present geopolitical facts reveal a completely different story.

1. Now China is head on to invade Taiwan ( or is it a bluff? )
2. Crossed LAC and occupied more than 1000 sq km. Troops mobilization towards LAC.
3. Establishment of overseas bases
4. Belt and Road Initiative.
5. Accelerated economic growth.
6. Huge trade surplus.
7. Accelerated military modernization.
8. Naval force is expanding. Induction and accelerated production of aircraft carriers, submarines and frigates etc.
9. Increased sea and space exploratory missions-scientific, military and commercial.
and so on.......

Though many Chinese and Western critics complain about President Xi's heavy handedness but ground realities are completely different. Corrupt officials were purged out and good governance is established which resulted in economic boom. Development is seen even in very remote areas. Basic infra structure such as health care, schooling, transport network is being provided in every nook and corner of the country.

In ten years, China has transformed itself into a very strong leading country, standing second in economy and third in military.

The monopoly US gained after the departure of USSR is now ending. With China emerging as strong world leader, new powerful economic and military alliances in Asia are in formation and very soon $ which ruled the world since end of WW2, will face another competitor from Asia.

Now coming back to military sales in international market. Chinese Government is the sole authority to approve any foreign military sales. Interestingly, Chinese Government is the major shareholder of companies producing military hardware.

Displaying scaled model of FC-31 in 2019 Paris Show is the clear indication that FC-31 will be pitched against F-35 in the International Market.

Selling military hardware to foreign countries also provides opportunity to enhance military to military relationship.
US and Russians do and China will now follow their steps. Why? Because China wants to increase its influence across the world.
 

CrazyZ

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Instead of buying another 4 or 4+ gen aircraft system, Pakistan should negotiate with Chinese to provide 30 to 40 J-20s on lease for 10 years. J-20s may be inducted within 5 year span starting 2021, ie 6 to 8 J-20s per year.

Meanwhile, Pakistan may negotiate to get license to build 100% F-31 airframe at PAC. Powered it by two RD-93 MA engines. “quad-redundant” fly-by-wire system configured it with latest proven avionics, EW, ECM packages (western or eastern) including AESA radar and HMD, use of MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1,000 times increase in data-handling capability, capability to carry wide range of western and eastern weapons and built in FLIR/laser targeting system. Full production must start by 2025.

This should be consider as a stepping stone towards project Azm.

And Project AZM may continue at its pace.
J20 is not for export plus it is too large for PAF's tactical needs. I would see something similar to what is going on in the PA with tanks....with VT4 and Al-Khalid-1 being acquired at the same time. The PAF could acquire J-31 and AZM at the same time. An AZM 5 gen airframe that uses a single J-10 engine and electronic systems is a great way to get it in service quickly with proven systems.
 

Deino

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...

Selling military hardware to foreign countries also provides opportunity to enhance military to military relationship.
US and Russians do and China will now follow their steps. Why? Because China wants to increase its influence across the world.

Maybe you ignore to post a reply but anyway: China surely wants to increase its influence across the world, but not at any cost. And this includes NO J-20 for Pakistan and NO full ToT of the FC-31/J-35 only for that political goal.
 

denel

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J20 is not for export plus it is too large for PAF's tactical needs. I would see something similar to what is going on in the PA with tanks....with VT4 and Al-Khalid-1 being acquired at the same time. The PAF could acquire J-31 and AZM at the same time. An AZM 5 gen airframe that uses a single J-10 engine and electronic systems is a great way to get it in service quickly with proven systems.
J-10 engines are prone to failures.
 

CrazyZ

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J-10 engines are prone to failures.
I think his intention was the WS-10B from the latest Batch 05 J-10Cs. I cannot think that Pakistan would use old Russian AL-31FN for a 5th generation type.
Yes, I am referring to latest Chinese engines. Rumor is that they have improved vastly. In general, I see Pakistan relaying largely a mix of domestic production and Chinese imports for most major weapons. This way Pakistan can grow its domestic arms industry but still utilize China's vast industries for low cost and bulk. PA is already doing this with tanks.

PAF has long preferred USA AC....they are good but history shows USA is not a reliable supplier. I number of F16 fanboys on PDF think block 70 is coming...:lol::lol::lol: Not gonna happen or would have too many terms. For 500 million....PAC can develop a new 5 gen airframe in house....just the cost of a few block 70's.
 

denel

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Yes, I am referring to latest Chinese engines. Rumor is that they have improved vastly. In general, I see Pakistan relaying largely a mix of domestic production and Chinese imports for most major weapons. This way Pakistan can grow its domestic arms industry but still utilize China's vast industries for low cost and bulk. PA is already doing this with tanks.

PAF has long preferred USA AC....they are good but history shows USA is not a reliable supplier. I number of F16 fanboys on PDF think block 70 is coming...:lol::lol::lol: Not gonna happen or would have too many terms. For 500 million....PAC can develop a new 5 gen airframe in house....just the cost of a few block 70's.
Noted; still they are improving, MTBF is unknown - let us see with time.
blk70/j16/jf7/j15/c130/ah1z ... the list goes one; it is beyond comprehension to see people go off on tangent and not reality.
f16 avenue is closed for next forseeable future.
 

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