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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

batmannow

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It is not my claim, this was stated by Air Marshal Shahid Latif in his various interviews. So please cool down!!!
Most members stating here in the forum know what they are talking about. This is one fact which I have mentioned. There are many videos and evidences which verify my quoted statement.

Discussing quantity is a very sensitive information. It is enough to know that JF-17 can carry AESA radar.
Your response to my statement shows that you were not in normal state of mind while writing your comments.
Why should PAF or Pakistan tell China to bring its every defense production in Pakistan?

I am convince that you were not in normal state of mind while writing your comments.
Why should I be unaware about FC 31/J 31/J-35?
Possibility of China providing TOT to PAF is greater, because China wants to export this aircraft in the International market. Induction in PAF means increasing FC-31 sale value in the international market. Same effect was observed when Chinese provided ToT for MBT 2000 to Pakistan. It is win win for both countries.

By the way what is your source that Pakistan provided the "blue prints" of CPEC to IMF?
While, there isn't any JF17s with AESA radars in use of PAF and J31 s isn't yet inducted in PLAAF so how come they ill start thinking of its exports?
It's still on testing phase, while in which videos shahid latif has told you about pakistan getting J31 s with TOT?
if you can't diffrenciate between a tank and a fighter aircraft and thier tech, then kerp dreaming, cause that doesn't makes me stop laughing!
 

Deino

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... Pakistan should negotiate with Chinese to provide 30 to 40 J-20s on lease for 10 years. J-20s may be inducted within 5 year span starting 2021, ie 6 to 8 J-20s per year.

Meanwhile, Pakistan may negotiate to get license to build 100% F-31 airframe at PAC.
...
...
Now PAF should also negotiate to procure tot for 100% FC-31 airframe, its configuring could be done at PAC.
IMO you set all your high hopes and ambitions too much on the words like should negotiate, may be, may negotiate, which is difficult when the other side has no interest to sell the J-20, to simply hand-over 100% ToT for the FC-31.

You should try a more realistic way.
 

Marker

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J20s no, there isn't even any wild thought in China to lend to anyone forget it, nor. FC31 is inducted which means is ready for even PLAAF own use, so both of your mentioned options aren't on reality based, while JFT BLK 3, still not ready untill next year mid, so only option left because of our, backward and lazy thinking is of, scrapblle MIRRAGES Thts what, we are collecting from all. Over the world?
Possibility of tot of FC 31 airframe is very high. But of course its full production will start after three to four years (may be five, depending on the PAF specs)

Even if Block 3's full productions starts by mid 2021, I suggest that it should be accelerated ie 12 in 2021, 24 in 22 and remaining 14 in 23.
 
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jupiter2007

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What about all the experience from Mirage rebuild factory (MRF)? If Iranian can copy F-5, why can’t Pakistan design it’s own/or copy plane without the help from external source? Are we worse than Iranian?
 

Marker

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IMO you set all your high hopes and ambitions too much on the words like should negotiate, may be, may negotiate, which is difficult when the other side has no interest to sell the J-20, to simply hand-over 100% ToT for the FC-31.

You should try a more realistic way.
Is there any official statement from China that J-20 will not be sold or leased to Pakistan?

Why would China hand over any tech for free? Negotiation does not mean that Pakistan asking China to hand over its tech.

Chinese are interested to sell FC 31 in International Market. PAF may negotiating this sale and may ask for TOT of its airframe. Because FC 31 with pure Chinese avionics package will not be satisfying PAF requirement. (Of course this TOT will not be free).

The possibility of successful negotiation is very high, as this will increase the sale value of FC 31 in world market. It is win win on both sides. Production of FC-31 airframe will further enhance the facilities at AMF PAC.

My opinions and inferences are based on reality. I may infer something wrong from available facts but whatever my inferences are, these are based on real facts.
 
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Deino

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I don't say it is impossible - at least the part with the FC-31 - but I'm sure there will be not a full ToT and it won't be cheap. On the other side from ALL we know China will not sell the J-20 and even some sort of leasing is IMO pure wishful thinking. at least I don't know any facts that speak towards such an option.
 

Marker

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IMF resident rep Teresa Daban Sanchez stated that Pakistan had shared full details of CPEC loans with the IMF, adding that CPEC was mostly private sector investment in energy and infrastructure.

In your previous statement you stated that CPEC blue prints were provided. Loan details are not blue prints.
While, there isn't any JF17s with AESA radars in use of PAF and J31 s isn't yet inducted in PLAAF so how come they ill start thinking of its exports?
It's still on testing phase,
We all know that FC 31 is in testing phase. Exporting FC 31 is the Chinese intention. Their media is full of this information.
while in which videos shahid latif has told you about pakistan getting J31 s with TOT?
When I was referring AM Shahid Latif, I was also referring weapons and pods integration not FC 31 transfer of tech.
if you can't diffrenciate between a tank and a fighter aircraft and thier tech, then kerp dreaming, cause that doesn't makes me stop laughing!
While I was co-relating tanks and Fighter aircraft, I was also referring sales effect. MBT2000 were sold to Pakistan along with its TOT, its international sale shoot up. About 300+ tanks were sold to various countries other than Pakistan. K-8 is another example. Around 250+ aircraft were sold to various countries.

Chinese sales record of military jet fighter and trainer aircraft clearly shows that PAF is the key factor to boost the sales of these aircraft. Except JL-10 (which Chinese manage to sell 6 to Zambia only), K-8 and JF-17, no other Chinese military aircraft was success in International Market.

So, if China is seriously considering to invest on FC 31 for naval use and export, then it will be better for them to involve PAF.

However, PAF will commit its involvement only after its successful flight trials of proto type by their own (PAF) pilots. Which as far as I know, there is no info available in this regard.
 

Marker

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What about all the experience from Mirage rebuild factory (MRF)? If Iranian can copy F-5, why can’t Pakistan design it’s own/or copy plane without the help from external source? Are we worse than Iranian?
The repair jigs available at MRF can be converted for manufacturing purpose. MRF has the capability to build most of the Mirage airframe from scratch. But this no viable option as Air Forces are moving 4+, 5 and 6 gen aircraft.

Designing an aircraft, even copy paste with slight difference is completely a different ball game. Complete flight characteristics will change due to slight changes in aerophiles, shape and placement of control surfaces, fuselage shape, engines, location of various load bearing members and other components etc. I am not going in details and trying to simplify the explanation on effects of change in aircraft design. In short, aircraft designing requires lot of computing and engineering.

In project AZAM, our engineers, computer scientist, and other specialists are already working to design aircraft. We are still waiting for the official design concept display of our new and 100% indigenous aircraft design.
 

batmannow

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What about all the experience from Mirage rebuild factory (MRF)? If Iranian can copy F-5, why can’t Pakistan design it’s own/or copy plane without the help from external source? Are we worse than Iranian?
Pakistan is doing 100 times better then that with JF17s if you compare both?
 

batmannow

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The repair jigs available at MRF can be converted for manufacturing purpose. MRF has the capability to build most of the Mirage airframe from scratch. But this no viable option as Air Forces are moving 4+, 5 and 6 gen aircraft.

Designing an aircraft, even copy paste with slight difference is completely a different ball game. Complete flight characteristics will change due to slight changes in aerophiles, shape and placement of control surfaces, fuselage shape, engines, location of various load bearing members and other components etc. I am not going in details and trying to simplify the explanation on effects of change in aircraft design. In short, aircraft designing requires lot of computing and engineering.

In project AZAM, our engineers, computer scientist, and other specialists are already working to design aircraft. We are still waiting for the official design concept display of our new and 100% indigenous aircraft design.
So why then PAF brought old MIRRAGES from Australia and Egypt?
While just concept can take a few years lets not think about AZM for comming 10 more years!
If you can make one, then why you are wasting our pafs time, pls go and make a copy of MIRRAGES? Or at least teach our technicians? 😉
 

GriffinsRule

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So why then PAF brought old MIRRAGES from Australia and Egypt?
While just concept can take a few years lets not think about AZM for comming 10 more years!
If you can make one, then why you are wasting our pafs time, pls go and make a copy of MIRRAGES? Or at least teach our technicians? 😉
Aussie Mirages were acquired 30 years ago and there is no official source that Pakistan is trying to acquire Egyptian ones. And even if we do acquire them, we can speculate the reasons being engines and spares that are not manufactured anymore perhaps.
Iran also does not produce brand new F-5. All they do is overhaul the existing jets in service at a slow and excruciating pace. And since there is plenty of corruption there too and a need to show off capabilities, you get prototypes with dual vertical fins on an F-5F body or the silly mockup of a stealth fighter.
They have had similar success in overhauling their Cobras but it helped that pre-revolution, the US supplied them with lot of equipment to maintain and overhaul these aircraft.
 

jupiter2007

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The repair jigs available at MRF can be converted for manufacturing purpose. MRF has the capability to build most of the Mirage airframe from scratch. But this no viable option as Air Forces are moving 4+, 5 and 6 gen aircraft.

Designing an aircraft, even copy paste with slight difference is completely a different ball game. Complete flight characteristics will change due to slight changes in aerophiles, shape and placement of control surfaces, fuselage shape, engines, location of various load bearing members and other components etc. I am not going in details and trying to simplify the explanation on effects of change in aircraft design. In short, aircraft designing requires lot of computing and engineering.

In project AZAM, our engineers, computer scientist, and other specialists are already working to design aircraft. We are still waiting for the official design concept display of our new and 100% indigenous aircraft design.
Indian are building Tejas which is a copy of Mirage F1 with better engine and avionics. Were PAF sleeping for last 20 years? Instead of trying to fix old mirage frame from 1950s and 60s, they could have build new improved frames. So much time wasted.....
 

Arsalan 345

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Indian are building Tejas which is a copy of Mirage F1 with better engine and avionics. Were PAF sleeping for last 20 years? Instead of trying to fix old mirage frame from 1950s and 60s, they could have build new improved frames. So much time wasted.....
I am not worried about Tejas but I am worried about their overall progress. Half and drdo,both are making weapons and here in Pakistan, we don't make sophisticated weapons. This gap will continue to grow. Remember India has much bigger purchasing power as well. It's a matter of concern.
 

GriffinsRule

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Indian are building Tejas which is a copy of Mirage F1 with better engine and avionics. Were PAF sleeping for last 20 years? Instead of trying to fix old mirage frame from 1950s and 60s, they could have build new improved frames. So much time wasted.....
How is Tejas a copy of Mirage F1. Please elaborate.
 

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