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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

batmannow

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Many on this thread are talking about f16 block 70. My thinking is if we buy latest f16 then don't you think the funds that are being put aside for 5 Gen will be used. It will be a real bad situation.
Mirages no doubt proved to be very pivtol jets for us I think they have served their time and it's time to replace them. We have almost 300 jets to replace in near future. I mean we have f7 and Mirages 3/5 they have all outlived their purpose. PAF don't have the luxury to spend funds freely they have to think long ahead.
Who is giving even a model of F16s BLK 70s to PAF? America? Trump or netenyaho?
 

batmannow

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PAF original plan of Block-III numbers, will give a clue as where we are heading. Having said that, it's our own bird and we can play with as the strong foundation is set. We have a strong knowledge be it basic but fundamental so the fear is gone and it's now confident movement given our economy.
Sorry but not your own bird, it's still a joint production between China and Pakistan?
While evn the BLK 3 becomes good medium class fighter its has its limits?
and growing imbalance between you and your enemies makes you looks wishfully good on these fourms?
but if it comes to real world sorry you are weak airforce, even with 60 new BLK3 of thunders, as you still don't have any deep strike capablities to stop enemies onslaught from its deep bases tactically!!!!
 

batmannow

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What I have said is in public domain. It has repeatedly been reported. Please feel free to agree or disagree. I personally dont have the time to go and do the donkey work for you.
A
Any of russian sources or its all just dreaming???? And pushing your own likes?
 

Marker

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J-10 OR F-16 FOR PAKISTAN AIR FORCE?


The Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon is a single-engine lightweight multirole aircraft operated by People’s Liberation Army Airforce. Huge numbers over 450 plus airframes are in operational service. J-10 took its first flight on 23rd March 1998 and entered operational services in 2006. There are three main variants of J-10 namely the J-10A, J-10B and newest J-10C.

The airframe is tailless delta wing with canards. The airframe is constructed with metal alloys and composite material. J-10A is powered by Russian AL-31FN engine. Later the J-10B and C have been spotted with Chinese WS-10B engines. Much of the avionics and electronic suite of Chinese made aircraft are kept away from the public domain. The cockpit is full glass comprising three main multifunction displays and HUD. J-10A incorporates an antenna array radar while J-10B and C are said to have AESA radars. J-10 is quite a manoeuvrable jet, a thrust vectoring engine J-10B was displayed at Zhuhai Airshow 2018, that was seen with enhanced manoeuvring characteristics and it even managed to pull notorious Pugachev Cobra manoeuvre.

J-10 incorporates the large variety of Armaments, in Air to Air Combat it can employ PL-5 PL-8 and PL-10 for within visual range engagements, for beyond visual range it employs PL-12 and PL-15 Active Radar Homing Missiles. J-10 also employs a huge variety of Guided and Un-Guided Air to Surface armaments. The payload capacity of over 18,000lbs can be used to carry unguided bombs, Laser and GPS guided bombs, Air to Surface Missiles, Anti Ship Missiles and Drop Fuel tanks.



General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon is one of the most famous fighters and most produced fighter aircraft in the world. F-16s are in operational service since 1980. Pakistan received its first F-16A/B Block 15s in 1983. F-16 kept evolving and improving with its Block building approach, starting from F-16 Block 5
to current operational F-16 Block 60, F-16s have kept improving. F-16 Block 70 is an upcoming variant with AESA radar and major boost to its capabilities over the previous blocks.

In 2006 Pakistan Showed Interest in J-10s, and in 2009 Pakistan had signed a deal worth $1.4 Billion for 36 Pakistan specific variants of J-10B. However, the jets were never delivered and there is no further news on that. It was believed Pakistan wished to invest those resources in the development of JF-17 program. In June 2006 Pakistan had requested Falcon Star and Enhanced Mid Life Upgrade Worth $1.3 Billion for their F-16A/B Block 15s. In June 2010 Pakistan received its first two F-16D Block 52Ms and by February 2012 PAF had received their 18 F-16C/D Block 52Ms out of 18 under Peace Drive, US had agreed to release 15 F-16 Airframes embargoes earlier, those 15 Airframes were also EMLUed and last EDA EMLU was delivered in 2016. In 2014 Pakistan received 13 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs from Jordan that were originally owned by the US. From 2006 to 2016 Pakistan received over 46 F-16 Airframes and there were more on order but unfortunately, that couldn’t materialise. It’s virtually impossible for a country like Pakistan to politically handle both deals, Pakistan had tried and tested the F-16s and they could easily rely on it so F-16 was given priority.



Still, many people are keen to believe still there is hope US would approve F-16 Block 70s and Upgrade Kits for Pakistan Airforce. This argument largely relies on the United State’s need for Pakistan for compliance of Afghan peace deal.

China is a long term and all-season strategic partner of Pakistan so J-10s are never off cards, but it won’t be wrong saying Pakistan still wants F-16s. Getting more F-16s is always a welcome move, as Pakistan already operates a large number of F-16s, Pakistan has all the support infrastructure and trained personnel to operate F-16s and moreover, PAF has 37 years of experience on F-16, where PAF F-16s undertook extensive operations ranging from Combat Air Patrols on Pak-Afghan border during Soviet invasion to Precision Strikes against militant targets during the war on terror. Pakistani F-16s have tasted blood as they were the second to score air to air kill after Israeli F-16s, there are many on and off record kills of PAF F-16s during the soviet afghan war. With the start of Pakistan’s anti-insurgency campaign PAF took an active part in the war. Recently on 27 February, 2019 Pakistani F-16s shot down Indian Airforce’s Mig-21 Bison and Su-30MKI with Aim-120C-5 BVR Missile. All this experience and PAF’s trust on F-16 makes it the most suitable option, with the induction of F-16 Block 70 into PAF it will bring huge improvements to PAF’s capabilities in the least possible time and less costly.

It is argued that PAF cannot employ F-16s at their full potential. F-16 upgrade and new F-16 airframes were given to PAF aimed war on terror and meant for precision strikes. The points to be considered here are early PAF F-16s were also capable of precision strikes and guided ammunition was also there with PAF not only on F-16s. F-16s had Pods and Guided Bombs long before EMLU. In peace drive, 500 Aim-120C-5 and 200 Aim-9M-9 Air to Air Missiles were given to PAF, and a contract was signed for upgrades of existing PAF Aim-9 arsenal. Did the insurgents employ aircraft that PAF needed to counter with AMRAAMs “ No “, AMRAAMs were given to PAF for defending their eastern border. On multiple occasions during standoffs against India PAF employed F-16s very well and in absolute accordance with PAF’s plans. Even PAF F-16s shot down multiple IAF assets and there was little to no criticism on PAF for employing F-16s against India. Rather a $125 million support package was released for PAF F-16 fleet. Recently US Department of Defence approved the sale of LANTIRN pods to PAF. Such moves tend to show US has little to no concerns on how Pakistan employs their F-16s unless they violate some terms which are least likely.

But what if “ NO F-16s FOR PAF “ then obviously the J-10 is always on cards, J-10 is a highly capable platform as evaluated by PAF with intent to induct and also in operational exercises PAF has been observing J-10s very keenly. J-10 offers PAF flexibility in terms of tactical and strategic employment and also free hands in terms of employment of weapon systems that may be local Pakistani or imported. China trusts Pakistan so J-10’s FCS will be fully accessible for Pakistan that really matters in operational efficiency. PAC Kamra has huge support infrastructure for PAF fleet, PAC Kamra can easily be utilised to support the J-10 fleet.



People are divided on the opinion whether PAF should opt for more F-16 or J-10s should be procured, Both sides have valid arguments. However, the decision lies with the utmost professional people the Pakistan Airforce itself. Everyone trusts PAF with their decision making as they have openly proved they are the best with it.
J10 C performance characteristics may be very attractive, but J-10 C is never a good option for PAF because of its unreliable engine. The serviceability and reliability rate is way below than PAF average. Its turn around time is also too high. Ease of maintenance is not at par as compared to JF-17 and F-16s.

Instead PAF may negotiate Chinese to provide 30 to 40 J-20s on lease for 10 years. Yes engines are same as in J-10 C but its performance characteristics are way better than J10 C. And it is a stealth aircraft. and may carry enough payload. This will be a temporary fill to counter the induction of Rafales in IAF. Leasing option will not be that expensive
or
Accelerate the production JF-17 Block 3s about 25 aircraft per year. Focus on better ground air defense radars and SAMs, better aerial platforms for AWACs and EW/ECM purpose and better situation awareness and Command and Control links.

And get 100% tot to produce FC-31 airframe at PAC. Its further configuration should be at PAF discretion.

Meanwhile project AZM may continue.
 

denel

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If they have arrived why would IAF start shouting about it. And what will they achieve by shouting about it ????
you know at times, i think that man is feeding
J10 C performance characteristics may be very attractive, but J-10 C is never a good option for PAF because of its unreliable engine. The serviceability and reliability rate is way below than PAF average. Its turn around time is also too high. Ease of maintenance is not at par as compared to JF-17 and F-16s.

Instead PAF may negotiate Chinese to provide 30 to 40 J-20s on lease for 10 years. Yes engines are same as in J-10 C but its performance characteristics are way better than J10 C. And it is a stealth aircraft. and may carry enough payload. This will be a temporary fill to counter the induction of Rafales in IAF. Leasing option will not be that expensive
or
Accelerate the production JF-17 Block 3s about 25 aircraft per year. Focus on better ground air defense radars and SAMs, better aerial platforms for AWACs and EW/ECM purpose and better situation awareness and Command and Control links.

And get 100% tot to produce FC-31 airframe at PAC. Its further configuration should be at PAF discretion.

Meanwhile project AZM may continue.
Friend, check the engines of FC-20; they are probably the same from J-10's. Engine reliability has been a challenge across chinese planes which is why RD was choosen. You cannot just bring in these unknown quantities and unproven systems.
May be 10 - 15 yrs later. They are still evolving it and are not at stage to say it is viable for export.
 

Marker

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you know at times, i think that man is feeding

Friend, check the engines of FC-20; they are probably the same from J-10's. Engine reliability has been a challenge across chinese planes which is why RD was choosen. You cannot just bring in these unknown quantities and unproven systems.
May be 10 - 15 yrs later. They are still evolving it and are not at stage to say it is viable for export.
I agree. That is what I mentioned in my quoted statement. Engine reliability and limited life is the problem.
I am also not in favor of J-10C induction in PAF for the same reason. Unreliable engine drastically effect the single engine jet aircraft flight worthiness.

Realizing the urgent need to induct medium combat aircraft, most of the members were pleading to induct J10 C, a single engine fighter, in PAF fleet, just because it can carry more pay load and service ceiling of 59000 ft. However, I recommended some what better (safer) option. Two unreliable engines are better than one engine. At least aircraft and pilot will be safe if one engine fails. J-20 will provide advantage of stealth, larger pay load and range.

If leasing J-20 is costly then PAF should accelerate induction of JF1-7 Block 3s about 25 aircraft per year. Meanwhile they should upgrade all their aerial and ground air defense platforms, SAMs, EW/ECM land and aerial platforms, command and control system and the network links. (I will prefer this option).

For MCA, PAF should negotiate with Chinese to provide tot for 100% airframe of FC-31. PAC should configure it IAW PAF requirement.
 

Marker

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Sorry but not your own bird, it's still a joint production between China and Pakistan?
While evn the BLK 3 becomes good medium class fighter its has its limits?
and growing imbalance between you and your enemies makes you looks wishfully good on these fourms?
but if it comes to real world sorry you are weak airforce, even with 60 new BLK3 of thunders, as you still don't have any deep strike capablities to stop enemies onslaught from its deep bases tactically!!!!
Though we are not manufacturing 100% airframe of JF-17, but PAC is configuring this aircraft IAW PAF requirement. It can carry any weapon and sensor pods of any origin. And this is the greatest advantage PAF had achieved.

Now PAF should also negotiate to procure tot for 100% FC-31 airframe, its configuring could be done at PAC.
 

batmannow

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Though we are not manufacturing 100% airframe of JF-17, but PAC is configuring this aircraft IAW PAF requirement. It can carry any weapon and sensor pods of any origin. And this is the greatest advantage PAF had achieved.

Now PAF should also negotiate to procure tot for 100% FC-31 airframe, its configuring could be done at PAC.
So you are claiming that JF 17, can carry all pods, all kind of ammo, AMRAMS , FOX 2, 3s from anywhere in the world?
Do you have any idea, what is you are talking about?
Let's forget, everything else, how many of JF17s in PAF inventory, has AESA radars cruntly , can you enlighten us?
While, yes I think, pakistan should tell China to, bring its all productions to pakistan each and every kind of its fighter jets? 😉
Do you think, J31 is some kind of a model or a toy, which China will just hand over to a country, whos minsters and advisers has given the rough blue prints of CEPEC to IMF?
 

denel

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Though we are not manufacturing 100% airframe of JF-17, but PAC is configuring this aircraft IAW PAF requirement. It can carry any weapon and sensor pods of any origin. And this is the greatest advantage PAF had achieved.

Now PAF should also negotiate to procure tot for 100% FC-31 airframe, its configuring could be done at PAC.
You have your information very incorrect.
 

batmannow

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I agree. That is what I mentioned in my quoted statement. Engine reliability and limited life is the problem.
I am also not in favor of J-10C induction in PAF for the same reason. Unreliable engine drastically effect the single engine jet aircraft flight worthiness.

Realizing the urgent need to induct medium combat aircraft, most of the members were pleading to induct J10 C, a single engine fighter, in PAF fleet, just because it can carry more pay load and service ceiling of 59000 ft. However, I recommended some what better (safer) option. Two unreliable engines are better than one engine. At least aircraft and pilot will be safe if one engine fails. J-20 will provide advantage of stealth, larger pay load and range.

If leasing J-20 is costly then PAF should accelerate induction of JF1-7 Block 3s about 25 aircraft per year. Meanwhile they should upgrade all their aerial and ground air defense platforms, SAMs, EW/ECM land and aerial platforms, command and control system and the network links. (I will prefer this option).

For MCA, PAF should negotiate with Chinese to provide tot for 100% airframe of FC-31. PAC should configure it IAW PAF requirement.
J20s no, there isn't even any wild thought in China to lend to anyone forget it, nor. FC31 is inducted which means is ready for even PLAAF own use, so both of your mentioned options aren't on reality based, while JFT BLK 3, still not ready untill next year mid, so only option left because of our, backward and lazy thinking is of, scrapblle MIRRAGES Thts what, we are collecting from all. Over the world?
 

Marker

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So you are claiming that JF 17, can carry all pods, all kind of ammo, AMRAMS , FOX 2, 3s from anywhere in the world?
Do you have any idea, what is you are talking about?
It is not my claim, this was stated by Air Marshal Shahid Latif in his various interviews. So please cool down!!!
Most members stating here in the forum know what they are talking about. This is one fact which I have mentioned. There are many videos and evidences which verify my quoted statement.
Let's forget, everything else, how many of JF17s in PAF inventory, has AESA radars cruntly , can you enlighten us?
While, yes I think, pakistan should tell China to, bring its all productions to pakistan each and every kind of its fighter jets? 😉
Discussing quantity is a very sensitive information. It is enough to know that JF-17 can carry AESA radar.
Your response to my statement shows that you were not in normal state of mind while writing your comments.
Why should PAF or Pakistan tell China to bring its every defense production in Pakistan?
Do you think, J31 is some kind of a model or a toy, which China will just hand over to a country, whos minsters and advisers has given the rough blue prints of CEPEC to IMF?
I am convince that you were not in normal state of mind while writing your comments.
Why should I be unaware about FC 31/J 31/J-35?
Possibility of China providing TOT to PAF is greater, because China wants to export this aircraft in the International market. Induction in PAF means increasing FC-31 sale value in the international market. Same effect was observed when Chinese provided ToT for MBT 2000 to Pakistan. It is win win for both countries.

By the way what is your source that Pakistan provided the "blue prints" of CPEC to IMF?
 

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