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My argument in defense of slavery, inspired by Nietzsche

Eskander

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Notion we need to challenge

1. Equality of people before the law and in possession of civil rights


People are not born equal. Majority of people ( including me ) don't have what it takes to be a great philosopher, a great artist, a great mathematician, great scientist or anyone in general who contributes to the cultural enrichment of your civilization. Instead of enforcing a system where everyone sees himself as equal to other people , the state should keep the natural hierarchy in place to maintain the highest standard of art, philosophy, science in society and let everyone who is capable prove his worth. Otherwise, mediocrity will be the rule. The elite class of society should enjoy greater rights and be allowed to get around the law as the culture is in greater need of them. A nation is defined and distinguished from others by its culture. So the value of an artist is considerably more than that of a soldier or any commoner for that matter

What we need to advocate

2. To maximize cultural progress (enrichment) , the existence of a slave class is neccessary


Before AI takes blue collar jobs away from the people, we need a class of people who should not concern themselves with politics, science and philosophy. They should be trained to operate as mindless robotic cogs in the big industrial wheel. They need to be enslaved so the elite can have all the time to advance the frontier of knowledge and art. Once the AI revolution is successful, half of the world population will be rendered useless, so it's important to let them know that they don't deserve the same equal rights as the elite who are running the world. The downtrodden members of society should be grateful that they have not been euthanized forcibly for being a complete waste of space

The elite artists should fashion the taste of art in society and the common people should not be able to dictate the direction of art to the artist. The commoners should be indoctrinated or slowly pushed to acquaint themselves with the elite taste until it becomes the fabric of the society as a whole. In this way, it's the role of the great artist to lift a nation to great cultural heights
 

Faqirze

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So what you are trying to say is that humanity should enforce a caste system of some sort? we all see how successful and shining caste based societies are (cough cough, South Asia). It only ends in exploitation of the lower classes from the top 1% and a select few owning majority of the wealth, so how exactly do you see this bright idea of yours working out?

Hush, this kid this seems real entertaining. Don't spoil the fun!
 

That Guy

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So what you are trying to say is that humanity should enforce a caste system of some sort? we all see how successful and shining caste based societies are (cough cough, South Asia). It only ends in exploitation of the lower classes from the top 1% and a select few owning majority of the wealth, so how exactly do you see this bright idea of yours working out?


Hush, this kid this seems real entertaining. Don't spoil the fun!
If this was 2013 to 2019, I would have let it slide, but the quality of posts and new users has seen a sharp decline over the last few years.
 

Faqirze

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If this was 2013, I would have let it slide, but the quality of posts and new users has seen a sharp decline over the last few years.
Idk about you but I'd much rather have this then whatever is in the current catalog (repetitive threads about Imran Khan, Pak military, Pakistani economic performance)
 

Eskander

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So what you are trying to say is that humanity should enforce a caste system of some sort? we all see how successful and shining caste based societies are (cough cough, South Asia). It only ends in exploitation of the lower classes from the top 1% and a select few owning majority of the wealth, so how exactly do you see this bright idea of yours working out?
The original cast system produced one of the greatest civilization in history, and it doesn't exist anymore in a real form for its effect to be felt properly. We don't have a nobility anymore. The Brahman ( statesman, scientists, philosophers, artists which includes musicians, poets, painters etc ) and the Vaishya ( great military leaders, warriors, great sportsmen etc ) should exist as one class, with greater privileges and they should not be worried about earning a livelihood. The rest of the people should be enslaved so a great culture takes birth. Slavery is an essential feature of any high culture. This also means we should replace democracy with dictatorship. Andalusian civilization can serve as a model
 
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WotTen

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a great philosopher, a great artist, a great mathematician, great scientist or anyone in general who contributes to the cultural enrichment of your civilization.

Since you are presenting this as a rational, scientific thesis, let me stop you right there.

Define 'great'.
Scientifically, objectively, before we can debate the rest of your thesis.

For example, most people would call Einstein a 'great' scientist, perhaps the greatest in history. However, many of us believe his theories are flawed and the future will see the 20th century as an entire century wasted on the wrong path.
 

Eskander

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Since you are presenting this as a rational, scientific thesis, let me stop you right there.

Define 'great'.
Scientifically, objectively, before we can debate the rest of your thesis.

For example, most people would call Einstein a 'great' scientist, perhaps the greatest in history. However, many of us believe his theories are flawed and the future will see the 20th century as an entire century wasted on the wrong path.

Physicist recognized the greatness of Einstein, mathematicians recognized the greatness of Grothendieck, logicians recognized the greatness of Gödel. Painters recognized the greatness of Picasso. Linguists recognized the greatness of Chomsky. You don't need to specify the content of art, science, philosophy to make the argument that there's a clear hierarchy of percieved importance in the eyes of those who are most capable of offering a judgment, ie the experts themselves.

Any student of history and culture knows that, each era brings forth new trends, values, ideas so it's stupid to fix greatness to a particular art , science , philosophy form. You should have understood why l didn't specify the content of high art form.
 

WotTen

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Physicist recognized the greatness of Einstein, mathematicians recognized the greatness of Grothendieck, logicians recognized the greatness of Gödel. Painters recognized the greatness of Picasso. Linguist recognized the greatness of Chomsky. You don't need to specify the content of art, science, philosophy to make the argument that there's a clear hierarchy of percieved importance in the eyes of those who are most capable of offering a judgment, ie the experts themselves.

Art is inherently subjective so I don't accept an objective definition of 'great art' or 'great artist'.

Mathematics can be objectively measured but, even here, there are instances where the majority was wrong,. When Hamilton came up with quaternions, he was ridiculed and reviled by most mathematicians. Lewis Carrol went so far as to mock it in Alice in Wonderland (the Mad Hatter scene is a mockery of mathematical concepts he disliked). However, quaternions are widely used to day in physics and computer graphics.

In science, Ptolemy's epicycles ruled the day for thousands of years, as was Aristotelean physics, both of which were rejected and replaced by modern science.

In short, what is great today will likely be considered wrong tomorrow. Very few things in this universe are absolute.
 

Eskander

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Ghalib makes more sense than this neitzhwaffen dude
Unfortunately, he suffered from financial problems throughout his life. This only strengthens my point. If the Mughals offered patronage to him at an earlier stage, he could have devoted most of his time to art.

Without art, life is a terrible mistake and not worth living. The state should act as a patron to great artists
 

Eskander

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Art is inherently subjective so I don't accept an objective definition of 'great art' or 'great artist'.

Mathematics can be objectively measured but, even here, there are instances where the majority was wrong,. When Hamilton came up with quaternions, he was ridiculed and reviled by most mathematicians. Lewis Carrol went so far as to mock it in Alice in Wonderland (the Mad Hatter scene is a mockery of mathematical concepts he disliked). However, quaternions are widely used to day in physics and computer graphics.

In science, Ptolemy's epicycles ruled the day for thousands of years, as was Aristotelean physics, both of which were rejected and replaced by modern science.

In short, what is great today will likely be considered wrong tomorrow. Very few things in this universe are absolute.

Lewis Carrol was a mediocre mathematician at best. The elite class has the ability to correct its judgment and Hamilton is a celebrated mathematician, his work was well received eventually. Who else is there besides the elite to offer a judgment ? The common man will never recognize the work of genius. It takes a class of geniuses to recognize work of great merit. You are too concerned with getting things "right" but you don't understand it doesn't have any relevance in artistic endeavors. Art defies the narrow confines of objectivity and is superior to science in the sense that it gives meaning to life

The mistakes of great man are still great, as they give direction to the future. You should see the big picture. Science is making progress and we are getting closer to understanding our world. The incredible practicality of science in industry is a testament to its increasing accuracy in understanding the world of phenomena
 

WotTen

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Without art, life is a terrible mistake and not worth living. The state should act as a patron to great artists

This is another nonsense. Why should a day laborer who can barely feed his family give tax money to some 'great artist' so he can lounge around all day and maybe produce so-called art?

I believe in user-pays. Rich people who want to support artists should pay high prices to see their art.
 
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