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Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

Desert Fox 1

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3 Sqns + HQs are good enough
3 Sqns + HQs are good enough
Yep. Armoured warfare is more about mobility nad using that the outmanouvering and out witting the enemy.
Now most of the people will jump to the point that our armd regts would be hard pressed against IA but the thing is that we shall not use our armd regts against IA except for the most desperate of situations. They are solely for counter attacking after the initial thrust has been absorbed and more suitably repulsed. This can be derived from the fact that all our armoured divs and mechanised divs are held as reserves and most importantly many holding corps have been raised to relieve the strike corps from any defensive op(and the best example is Gujranwala corps, which has an anti tank brigade at its disposal). I think this the point everyone must learn before jumping on any conclusion
 

Signalian

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Yep. Armoured warfare is more about mobility nad using that the outmanouvering and out witting the enemy.
Now most of the people will jump to the point that our armd regts would be hard pressed against IA but the thing is that we shall not use our armd regts against IA except for the most desperate of situations. They are solely for counter attacking after the initial thrust has been absorbed and more suitably repulsed. This can be derived from the fact that all our armoured divs and mechanised divs are held as reserves and most importantly many holding corps have been raised to relieve the strike corps from any defensive op(and the best example is Gujranwala corps, which has an anti tank brigade at its disposal). I think this the point everyone must learn before jumping on any conclusion
Send complete I-Corps to capture Jammu. Protect right flank using XXX Corps and left flank using elements of X Corps like 23 ID and 19 ID. Hopefully, armor will be put to good use by capturing an important city. If 6th Armor Div survives after taking part in capturing Jammu, then send it south-east.
 

Desert Fox 1

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Send complete I-Corps to capture Jammu. Protect right flank using XXX Corps and left flank using elements of X Corps like 23 ID and 19 ID. Hopefully, armor will be put to good use by capturing an important city. If 6th Armor Div survives after taking part in capturing Jammu, then send it south-east.
I think PA will not and cannot do this. PA will never attack India first especially with a strike corps. That would be against our offensive defensive doctrine. If the 6th armd div goes in it will be up against both the strike as well as the holding corps of the whole Indian Northern and Northern Western command and if the attack is blunted or our armd div has serious losses than we will loose the offensive power in the very beginning and would not be able to counter attacka and make most of the situation when IA attack is bogged down and it in turn loses it offensive capability. Then our armoured divs can and will pounce and attack when the enemy is weakest. For limited counter attacking we have armd regts with inf divs( i pray that the inf divs are given armd bdes instead of only a single regt) plus the indp/corps armoured bdes. A bit similar to Zhukov's defense but only a bit.
No need to attack where the enemy and when the enemy is strongest. Wear him down and then pounce. Remember what Salahuddin Ayubi did to the crusaders befor the battle of Hattin. He harassed them and when the enemy was worn down completely he struck the decisive blow, but of course we don't have that much strategic depth but just to give an example. Plus the airforces of both the countries will play the decisive role . Just my piece of mind
 
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Signalian

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I think PA will not and cannot do this. PA will never attack India first especially with a strike corps. That would be against our offensive defensive doctrine. If the 6th armd div goes in it will be up against both the strike as well as the holding corps of the whole Indian Northern and Northern Western command and if the attack is blunted or our armd div has serious losses than we will loose the offensive power in the very beginning and would not be able to counter attacka and make most of the situation when IA attack is bogged down and it in turn loses it offensive capability. Then our armoured divs can and will pounce and attack when the enemy is weakest. For limited counter attacking we have armd regts with inf divs( i pray that the inf divs are given armd bdes instead of only a single regt) plus the indp/corps armoured bdes. A bit similar to Zhukov's defense but only a bit.
No need to attack where the enemy and when the enemy is strongest. Wear him down and then pounce. Remember what Salahuddin Ayubi did to the crusaders befor the battle of Hattin. He harassed them and when the enemy was worn down completely he struck the decisive blow, but of course we don't have that much strategic depth but just to give an example. Plus the airforces of both the countries will play the decisive role
Repeat of 1971. Armor Divs resting at tank sheds as reserve analogy. Keep the shiny and well oiled tanks sit in their tracks then. Take them out on 23rd March Parade and park them again till next year.

The amount of time taken in hide and seek will never be enough for both countries to make gains at all. Salahuddin Ayubi had time and repeated opportunities at his hands, whereas in Indo-Pak scenario a nuclear weapon can end it all on the second day of war. You cannot wear India down, well maybe delay Indian forces for a certain amount of time. India has more troops, more tanks, more replacements, more resources.

If Infantry Div is given the job, it will suffer more casualties and take alot more time. The terrain leading up to Jammu may not be tank friendly as the forces get closer to Jammu. Let 6th Armor Div penetrate 10, 20 or 50 km into J&K towards Jammu. Both Armor Divisions give PA a chance each to conduct an offensive. They make the bridgeheads, then the infantry can come and clean up as the armor can be pulled back later on. Otherwise go through the air, drop airborne forces at Jammu, calculate the chances of success yourself, but first where are the resources. Make do of what is available - tanks.

Either PA takes Kashmir or let the Kashmir/LOC drama drag on for another century. Lose 50 soldiers annually for PA and 100 soldiers annually for IA on LOC. Drag on Siachen issue side by side also. Keep buying weapons like 5th gen aircraft and 4th gen tanks and nuclear submarines while universities and hospitals can be built and money can be thrown in research. A utopian view of Pakistan as a welfare state could be thought of eventually, which is impossible to even think right now.
 

Desert Fox 1

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Repeat of 1971. Armor Divs resting at tank sheds as reserve analogy. Keep the shiny and well oiled tanks sit in their tracks then. Take them out on 23rd March Parade and park them again till next year.

The amount of time taken in hide and seek will never be enough for both countries to make gains at all. Salahuddin Ayubi had time and repeated opportunities at his hands, whereas in Indo-Pak scenario a nuclear weapon can end it all on the second day of war. You cannot wear India down, well maybe delay Indian forces for a certain amount of time. India has more troops, more tanks, more replacements, more resources.

If Infantry Div is given the job, it will suffer more casualties and take alot more time. The terrain leading up to Jammu may not be tank friendly as the forces get closer to Jammu. Let 6th Armor Div penetrate 10, 20 or 50 km into J&K towards Jammu. Both Armor Divisions give PA a chance each to conduct an offensive. They make the bridgeheads, then the infantry can come and clean up as the armor can be pulled back later on. Otherwise go through the air, drop airborne forces at Jammu, calculate the chances of success yourself, but first where are the resources. Make do of what is available - tanks.

Either PA takes Kashmir or let the Kashmir/LOC drama drag on for another century. Lose 50 soldiers annually for PA and 100 soldiers annually for IA on LOC. Drag on Siachen issue side by side also. Keep buying weapons like 5th gen aircraft and 4th gen tanks and nuclear submarines while universities and hospitals can be built and money can be thrown in research. A utopian view of Pakistan as a welfare state could be thought of eventually, which is impossible to even think right now.
Sir, but from political and diplomatic point of view we never want to be the aggressor otherwise, of course what you are saying is ideal especially if we are able to achieve air superiority in the concerned sectors and if the ISI is able to restart the armed struggle in Kashmir once again.
In 71 it was more of a politcal decision alongwith pressure from China as well as USA to not to open the western front. Andby wearing down IA i meant that allow IA to use some of its resources to attack on other sectors which otherwise can be used against the 6th armoured div making road ways into the indian territory. Plus I meant that if the inf divs are given armd bdes they can also do some limited counter attacking against the enemy force they are defending. But this all must be preceded by a pre emptive strike in IAF air Field. Still, of course you know much more than me
@PanzerKiel is their anything wrong in my post, sir?
 

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can someone gives advantages of AK-1 over AK?

whats the improvements ?

and what was the final number of AK built

it seems like PAC can build more JF17 than HIT can do AK
 

PanzerKiel

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Yep. Armoured warfare is more about mobility nad using that the outmanouvering and out witting the enemy.
Now most of the people will jump to the point that our armd regts would be hard pressed against IA but the thing is that we shall not use our armd regts against IA except for the most desperate of situations. They are solely for counter attacking after the initial thrust has been absorbed and more suitably repulsed. This can be derived from the fact that all our armoured divs and mechanised divs are held as reserves and most importantly many holding corps have been raised to relieve the strike corps from any defensive op(and the best example is Gujranwala corps, which has an anti tank brigade at its disposal). I think this the point everyone must learn before jumping on any conclusion
There are some armor formations which are primarily for offensive tasks, and their training is also on the same lines.

Gujranwala Corps has no special anti tank brigade....PA as a whole doesnt have anti tank brigades (a Soviet concept)....
I think PA will not and cannot do this. PA will never attack India first especially with a strike corps. That would be against our offensive defensive doctrine. If the 6th armd div goes in it will be up against both the strike as well as the holding corps of the whole Indian Northern and Northern Western command and if the attack is blunted or our armd div has serious losses than we will loose the offensive power in the very beginning and would not be able to counter attacka and make most of the situation when IA attack is bogged down and it in turn loses it offensive capability. Then our armoured divs can and will pounce and attack when the enemy is weakest. For limited counter attacking we have armd regts with inf divs( i pray that the inf divs are given armd bdes instead of only a single regt) plus the indp/corps armoured bdes. A bit similar to Zhukov's defense but only a bit.
No need to attack where the enemy and when the enemy is strongest. Wear him down and then pounce. Remember what Salahuddin Ayubi did to the crusaders befor the battle of Hattin. He harassed them and when the enemy was worn down completely he struck the decisive blow, but of course we don't have that much strategic depth but just to give an example. Plus the airforces of both the countries will play the decisive role . Just my piece of mind
PA can do this.

Attacking first with a Strike Corps is not against our offensive doctrine. At some sensitive places, the geography forces or allows us to strike first and make significant gains.

Indian Strike Corps is not that much nearer to our border, like our 1 Corps. 1 Corps therefore enjoys this big advantage.

Armored brigades in infantry divisions are already there.
Sir, but from political and diplomatic point of view we never want to be the aggressor otherwise, of course what you are saying is ideal especially if we are able to achieve air superiority in the concerned sectors and if the ISI is able to restart the armed struggle in Kashmir once again.
In 71 it was more of a politcal decision alongwith pressure from China as well as USA to not to open the western front. Andby wearing down IA i meant that allow IA to use some of its resources to attack on other sectors which otherwise can be used against the 6th armoured div making road ways into the indian territory. Plus I meant that if the inf divs are given armd bdes they can also do some limited counter attacking against the enemy force they are defending. But this all must be preceded by a pre emptive strike in IAF air Field. Still, of course you know much more than me
@PanzerKiel is their anything wrong in my post, sir?
You can still be called aggressor if PAF goes in first (due to its high speed) instead of PA.
 
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Desert Fox 1

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There are some armor formations which are primarily for offensive tasks, and their training is also on the same lines.

Gujranwala Corps has no special anti tank brigade....PA as a whole doesnt have anti tank brigades (a Soviet concept)....

PA can do this.

Attacking first with a Strike Corps is not against our offensive doctrine. At some sensitive places, the geography forces or allows us to strike first and make significant gains.

Indian Strike is not that much nearer to our border, like our 1 Corps. 1 Corps therefore enjoys this big advantage.

Armored brigades in infantry divisions are already there.

You can still be called aggressor if PAF goes in first (due to its high speed) instead of PA.
Thank you very much sir. I am very much obliged. I am still learning from members like you, signalian, dazzler,tipu. You are some of those who are keeping this forum alive and preventing it from becoming just a rogue type where everyone one just jumps in and gives his own opinion without facts and figures. Thank you again.Will continue to learn
Armored brigades
With all?or those in important regions?
 

Readerdefence

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There are some armor formations which are primarily for offensive tasks, and their training is also on the same lines.

Gujranwala Corps has no special anti tank brigade....PA as a whole doesnt have anti tank brigades (a Soviet concept)....

PA can do this.

Attacking first with a Strike Corps is not against our offensive doctrine. At some sensitive places, the geography forces or allows us to strike first and make significant gains.

Indian Strike Corps is not that much nearer to our border, like our 1 Corps. 1 Corps therefore enjoys this big advantage.

Armored brigades in infantry divisions are already there.

You can still be called aggressor if PAF goes in first (due to its high speed) instead of PA.
Hi sir just a quick Q from my side what will happen in lieu of going into J&K PA will be able to hold that for enough time in that region another Qs is how will and how aggressive Indian action will be through Sindh border will PA be able to thwart that attack with ample force and resources
thank you
 

Signalian

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Sir, but from political and diplomatic point of view we never want to be the aggressor otherwise, of course what you are saying is ideal especially if we are able to achieve air superiority in the concerned sectors and if the ISI is able to restart the armed struggle in Kashmir once again.
In 71 it was more of a politcal decision alongwith pressure from China as well as USA to not to open the western front. Andby wearing down IA i meant that allow IA to use some of its resources to attack on other sectors which otherwise can be used against the 6th armoured div making road ways into the indian territory. Plus I meant that if the inf divs are given armd bdes they can also do some limited counter attacking against the enemy force they are defending. But this all must be preceded by a pre emptive strike in IAF air Field. Still, of course you know much more than me
@PanzerKiel is their anything wrong in my post, sir?
If a war starts, PA has to take initiative.
In 1971, it was lack of guts from both countries for not using Amor Divs. USA complained and still complains that Pakistan acts on its own while Pakistan complains that USA keeps its own interests in front, not Pakistan's.

There are 4 x Divisions of PA that have offensive capability so why not use them instead of throwing in Infantry Divs from onset.
 

Desert Fox 1

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If a war starts, PA has to take initiative.
In 1971, it was lack of guts from both countries for not using Amor Divs. USA complained and still complains that Pakistan acts on its own while Pakistan complains that USA keeps its own interests in front, not Pakistan's.

There are 4 x Divisions of PA that have offensive capability so why not use them instead of throwing in Infantry Divs from onset.
Agreed sir
 

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