• Monday, July 13, 2020

Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

Discussion in 'Pakistan Army' started by Signalian, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Mumm-Ra

    Mumm-Ra FULL MEMBER

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    As usual, an extremely informative and commendable post. hats off!!!

    One question though, why doesn't PA combine both Armoured Divs into a single armoured Corps. Two armoured divs supported by two mech/motorized infantry div? It can be reminiscent of the Germans armoured Corps during WWW2. Not only will they have a lot more fire power and be able to have a numerical superiority in terms of tanks in their given operational area. Further, they may be able to tie down a much greater strength of IA as it may be compelled to put a lot more resources, which would have otherwise been used in an offensive operations, to counter this threat.
     
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  2. Signalian

    Signalian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    It becomes a gamble by putting all assets in one area. The eastern border in the centre and south is all open and its massive to cover. IA IBG threat needs to be addressed so armor has to be spread all along the border. IA Armored Divs are north, centre and south. Then the issue of logistics, fuel, spares, ammunition - all needs to be concentrated in one sector. The psychology and mindset of Desi Armor Commanders is different than Germans. Lesser number of armor compared to infantry is an issue on both sides (IA and PA). So tanks are a precious asset for both armies. PA has no reserve MBTs. Those M-48s are outdated and not worth investing. All the Armored and Mech Divs use different types of Tanks in PA, which will be analogous to Wehrmacht using Pz I,II and III very early, then using Pz II,III and IV and finally Pz IV and V as standard in Pz Divs supported by Pz VI heavy battalions, but Wehrmacht's Panzer Divs had smaller component of Armor than other countries.

    PA Inf Div can have up to 15,000 troops with around 8000-9000 fighting troops who are supported by just 45 Tanks !

    Your idea is good though. You must have seen what happened in 1965. PA 1st Armd Div joined 6th Armd Div in Sialkot in the middle of the war after it withdrew from Khem Karan. However, now IA has 3 Armored Divs and few RAPIDs. IA will send its Armor (T-90 + BMP-2) through IBGs in all sectors and in good numbers to offset PA defences.

    To go ahead with your idea, PA can raise an Armored Brigade Group and a Mechanized Brigade Group, then attach several other armor and mechanized battalions in case of war to bring both "Groups" to Divisional strength. If you look on the map, Rahim Yar Khan is a strategic location where PA can place these two formations and then launch them north, centre or south towards India.
     
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  3. Mumm-Ra

    Mumm-Ra FULL MEMBER

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    But with heightened risk comes greater reward. The point of all the training, investment and planning should be to have a decisive victory in the shortest amount of time as we should not be embroiled in a long full fledged war given the resource and manpower difference between us and India. And neither should the war planning be to fight to a stalemate with insignificant gains or no gains an all.

    The threat of IA armour on all sectors can also be handled if we have a very high ratio of Anti-tank equipment. From what I gather on this forum is that there is a dearth of that so why not increase this resource. We already produce Bakhtar Shikan and upgrading it, if required, or locally producing a new advanced version should not be a big issue, at least theoretically. A large amount of anti-armour also provides at least some buffer in case the armoured element of a formation are rendered unusable. That formation may still hold its ground against any IA armour threat.

    If I have read right, your approach reminds me of the treatment of PA 1st armour div and 11th Inf div during the 1965 war. Both were joined together for the first time as a formation during the war as a task force or battle group during the war. This ad-hocist approach, among many other factors, was responsible for its unsatisfactory performance in its sector and hence it had to be withdrawn.
     
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  4. khanasifm

    khanasifm SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think in case war/ skirmish in east Peshawar based Corp and Quetta based Corp minus perhaps a brigade move east as well Peshawar covering /adding north and Quetta adding to south
     
  5. JPMM

    JPMM PROFESSIONAL

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    I believe yes regarding XIIth Quetta Corps, but not anymore with XIth Peshawar Corps. Since the COIN operations Pak Army is permenantly in FATA, they cant leave the area. There are reports of 19th InfDiv moving from Xth Corps to Ist Corps as reserve, replaced by 34th LID. These 19th InfDiv may join 37th InfDiv forming a new Corps as a reserve Infantry Formation.
    It could be a new rapid reaction Corps, with abilities to go East or West as needed.
     
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  6. Ich

    Ich FULL MEMBER

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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  7. Gryphon

    Gryphon SENIOR MEMBER

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    Corps Reserves with 3× (I) brigades each were active at Bahawalpur and Malir two decades back. These brigades were later grouped under Mech Div HQs to enable coordination in operations. Adhocism sucks.


    I don't see 1 Strike Corps being stripped of 37 Inf Div. The Corps is placed to operate on both banks of the Chenab river - and that would be 8 IABG + 37 Inf Div (north of Chenab) and 6 Armd Div + 17 Inf Div (south of Chenab).
    * 19 Inf Div as reserve.
     
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  8. khanasifm

    khanasifm SENIOR MEMBER

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    There is a reason for raising 76/79 new wings or regiments of Fc in case of need army corp will move east and security division and fc will take over west secondly west major threats are neutralised

    Not sure what the time line for completion may be 5/10 years time though

    But it does not means Peshawar Corp is moving just will go to its role of being reserve for east and will still remain on western side

    With merger of data into kpk move out does not mean anything but army will be restricted to cannts

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1297452

    https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/568232-army-leave-tribal-areas-2022

    https://www.app.com.pk/72-wings-of-...-effective-management-senate-bodies-informed/
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  9. Ich

    Ich FULL MEMBER

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    For me a MechInf has to be fast, quick and dirty. Its not good for the function of a MechInf to mix it up with other troops
     
  10. JPMM

    JPMM PROFESSIONAL

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    Exactly my friend, Ist Corps south of Chenab, New Corps north of Chenab, all the Divisions are allready in place that way. Just need na extra IABG for Ist Corps etc.

    Just a small incitation to violance on FATA (provocked by the Indian RAW), and your GHQ wont let go XIth Corps East. Were is Plan-B?
     
  11. khanasifm

    khanasifm SENIOR MEMBER

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    Your ghq ?? Haha

    Got it go home and do not worry not your headache

    ;)
     
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  12. Signalian

    Signalian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    In 1965, 1st Armored Div had minimal infantry support which is why tanks were shot up easily by Indian RRs. If Infantry had been deployed effectively, they would have flushed out the ambushing Indian forces. Tanks cannot advance without infantry, tanks cannot operate on their own.

    ATGM is a defensive weapon. It can be used offensively, yes, but the main offensive weapon of an Army is Tank. There has to be sizeable offensive force in every region of operation. "Counter-attack" is a term used in military which is used to offset advantage gained by the enemy. Did you read about Rommel's campaign in Africa ? He never consolidated his position by building defenses, he kept advances with whatever force he had. It's a gamble as he retreated twice along the route that he won, but a middle approach can be sought. He kept pressurizing his enemy but neither he nor his enemy could get a foot hold of territory for long till Montgomery came along. Rommel's example is extreme, however counter attack is important. Infantry has to be supported with tanks against enemy infantry and if possible by strike aircrafts. So if Indian Army attacks and captures a Pakistani village or town, Pakistan should have sufficient armor along with majority infantry to counter-attack not just captured area, but also attack Indian reinforcements pouring in to consolidate that area, attack Indian supply lines to cut off enemy's link from its rear and also to defend against another attack when the reserve battalions are thrown in by Indian Commander which had been held back initially. For all this, Pakistan needs Tanks. Infantry cannot handle all these Military build ups by Indian Army. Most importantly, after Indian Army is dislodged from pakistani soil, then tanks are needed to attack Indian forces in Indian territory. All this cannot be done with ATGMs alone.

    Pakistan uses its Brigade sized forces or Ad-hoc brigade sized forces effectively. This was seen in deployment of Changez Force in 1971. If you read 1971 war threads, you will see that atleast one brigade of every Division had performed much better than the whole division on its own. US Military has moved to Brigade Combat Teams (Stryker Bdes). India has moves to IBGs which are larger than Bde but smaller than Div. Pakistan itself is expected to use mixed Brigade sized forces comprising of armor, infantry, artillery, AD, Gunships to stop or delay a much larger Indian force.

    Through Pakistan Military's deployment, now there are 4 armor/mechanized divisions capable of penetrating into India at four various places instead of a single area like you want. Concentrating all the armored force towards a single target will attract IAF, missiles, ATGMs and lots of Indian infantry in that area. Pakistan will lose initiative elsewhere. India will use minimal armor forces to counter this Pakistan Armored Corps size thrust and then India will create its own Corps sized Armored forces using that force to enter Pakistan hundreds of miles away. Pakistan won't have sufficient tanks to stop that Indian armored attack and then counter attack.

    Plan-B is Second Div strength force of FC which is now operational.
     
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  13. Pakistani Fighter

    Pakistani Fighter ELITE MEMBER

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    How would u compare Pakistani Tanks with Indian Tanks in terms of their capabilities?
     
  14. Signalian

    Signalian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    T-90 is a very capable MBT.
    BMP-2 is an effective IFV
     
  15. Ich

    Ich FULL MEMBER

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    Well, Rommel is a bad example. Not in his offensive actions, but in his badness to see the whole mediteranian theater including how is it going with the supplies for his troops and how can the enemy supply and how the enemy can cut his supplielines. Also air cover/air superiority. All these things were underrated if not ignored by him. Bullet point Malta.

    https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/cia-document-describes-nazi-plan-to-invade-malta.531355

    And yes, tanks are offensive weapons and can take on various targets cause auf their various ammunition and their ability to come into combat range cause of their armour. Me think this is shifting towards modern ATGMs and their meanwhile also various missiles and their meanwhile also larger range. But this will not be the end in this development. The future will be MechInfs (fast,quick,dirty) in combination with modern ATGMs and (!) small cruise missiles with range of up to 100 km, tube mounted on APCs, used against e.g. artillery what is builded up behind the enemy lines or air defence also builded up behind enemy lines or against hard points and so on. Small CMs already exists like Spear-3 from MDBA.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020