• Monday, November 18, 2019

Many imperial Romans had roots in the Middle East, genetic history shows

Discussion in 'Middle East & Africa' started by zectech, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Many imperial Romans had roots in the Middle East, genetic history shows

    By Lizzie WadeNov. 7, 2019 , 2:00 PM

    Two thousand years ago, the streets of Rome bustled with people from all over the ancient world. The empire's trade routes stretched from North Africa to Asia, and new immigrants poured in every day, both by choice and by force. Now, an ancient DNA study has shown those far-flung connections were written in the genomes of the Romans.

    People from the city's earliest eras and from after the Western empire's decline in the fourth century C.E. genetically resembled other Western Europeans. But during the imperial period most sampled residents had Eastern Mediterranean or Middle Eastern ancestry. At that time, "Rome was like New York City … a concentration of people of different origins joining together," says Guido Barbujani, a population geneticist at the University of Ferrara in Italy who wasn't involved in the study. "This is the kind of cutting-edge work that's starting to fill in the details [of history]," adds Kyle Harper, a Roman historian at the University of Oklahoma in Norman.

    The study, published today in Science, traces 12,000 years of history using genomes from 127 people buried at 29 archaeological sites in and around the city of Rome. Alfredo Coppa, a physical anthropologist at Sapienza University of Rome, sought hundreds of samples from dozens of previously excavated sites. Ron Pinhasi of the University of Vienna extracted DNA from the skeletons' ear bones, and Jonathan Pritchard, a population geneticist at Stanford University, sequenced and analyzed their DNA.

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    The oldest genomes came from three hunter-gatherers who lived 9000 to 12,000 years ago and genetically resembled other hunter-gatherers in Europe at the time. Later genomes showed the Romans changed in step with the rest of Europe, as an influx of early farmers with ancestry from Anatolia (what is now Turkey) reshaped the genetics of the entire region some 9000 years ago.

    But Rome went its own way from 900 B.C.E. to 200 B.C.E. That's when it grew from a small town into an important city, says Kristina Killgrove, a Roman bioarchaeologist at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill who wasn't involved in the study. During its growth, "probably a lot of migration [was] happening," she says—as the genomes of 11 individuals from this period confirm. Some people had genetic markers resembling those of modern Italians, whereas others had markers reflecting ancestry from the Middle East and North Africa.

    That diversity increased even more as Rome became an empire. Between 27 B.C.E. and 300 C.E., the city was the capital of an empire of 50 million to 90 million people, stretching from North Africa to Britain to the Middle East. Its population grew to more than 1 million people. The genetic "diversity was just overwhelming," Pinhasi says.

    But people from certain parts of the empire were far more likely to move to the capital. The study suggests the vast majority of immigrants to Rome came from the East. Of 48 individuals sampled from this period, only two showed strong genetic ties to Europe. Another two had strong North African ancestry. The rest had ancestry connecting them to Greece, Syria, Lebanon, and other places in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East.

    That makes sense, Harper says, because at the time, areas to the east of Italy were more populous than Europe; many people lived in big cities such as Athens and Alexandria. And Rome was connected to Greece and the Middle East by the Mediterranean Sea, which was far easier to traverse than overland routes through the Alps, he says.

    "The genetic information parallels what we know from historical and archaeological records," Killgrove says. She and others have identified individuals from imperial Roman cemeteries who likely didn't grow up in Rome, based on isotopes in their teeth that reflect the water they drank when young—though the studies couldn't show their precise origins. Ancient texts and words carved on tombstones also point to large populations of immigrants in the city, Harper says.

    But once the empire split in two and the eastern capital moved to Constantinople (what is now Istanbul, Turkey) in the fourth century C.E., Rome's diversity decreased. Trade routes sent people and goods to the new capital, and epidemics and invasions reduced Rome's population to about 100,000 people. Invading barbarians brought in more European ancestry. Rome gradually lost its strong genetic link to the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East. By medieval times, city residents again genetically resembled European populations.

    "People perhaps imagine that the amount of migration we see nowadays is a new thing," Pritchard says. "But it's clear from ancient DNA that populations have been mixing at really high rates for a long time."

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...s-had-roots-middle-east-genetic-history-shows
     
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  2. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Beginning in the 4th century BCE, when the Romans absorbed Magna Graecia, people with Eastern Mediterranean heritage came to live in Rome. That East to West migration continued to about 300s CE, when those with steppe ancestry started to destroy the Roman Empire from the north.

    The ancient city of Rome was a multi-ethnic capital that took in hundreds of thousands of mainly Greek, Anatolian and Lebanese people. Not to mention slaves from Gaul and Britannia.
     
  3. Kabira

    Kabira ELITE MEMBER

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    Not surprising. Northen european whites were primitive tribes back then even though now days in Italy its desired to look like them then middle eastern.

    Ancient DNA is amazing, taking care of nordic BS history.
     
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  4. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Very true. From one sample it looks the Latins were from the primitive tribes, however the very early Romans were influenced greatly by Etruscans and Greeks. Both Etruscans and Greek seem to be from Eastern Mediterranean and taught the Italic hut builders how to create a civilization. So once again tools of civilization were taught to primitive Europeans by Middle Easterners and those with Middle Eastern DNA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalizing_period
     
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  5. SABRE

    SABRE FULL MEMBER

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    I was into ancient Roman history sometime ago and still tend to read about it whenever I can, though quite seldom over the years. I must confess my knowledge in this regard is quite limited so the following theories might be weak.

    The little bit of knowledge I have suggests that Romans believed themselves to be descendants of Trojans, who were displaced after the Trojan War. But regardless of the decisive defeat of the Trojans at the hands of Spartans and their allied Greek tribes Romans continued to identify themselves as descendants of Trojan warriors and thus a superior race to others. In contrast, the scholars believe they were actually descendants of farmers, or a came from a farming community.

    Don't know how much of a genetic link they have with the Middle East but they could have roots in Anatolia in modern day Turkey, if there was slightest bit of reality to their claim of being Trojan descendants (this does not mean they had genetic links to Turks as Turkish settlement in Anatolia is fairly recent compared to the Roman civilization). This raises the question; who were the Trojans? Trojans were sitting right in the Middle of the world, connecting Europe, Africa and Asia and were the gateway for trade. Thus, Trojans could have been a mix ethnicity combining the genes from three continents. They could also be an offshoot of Phoenicians, a nomadic traders of Semitic origin who dominated the trade in Mediterranean and thus began settling across the Mediterranean coast of Levant and North Africa. Troy would be an idol place for Phoenicians to establish as their major trading post. Descendants of Phoenicians later emerged as Punic civilization or Carthaginians in North Africa, and were bitter rivals of the Romans alongside Huns from Central Asia. However, archaeological evidence links Trojan people more with European people then Semitic Phoenicians people.

    If indeed the early Romans were of Middle Eastern origins then this changes the anthropological, archaeological, and historical studies that have been conducted so far. My best bet would that much like Punic/Carthaginians they too were mainly Phoenicians but with European blood as well.

    The multi-ethnicity of Rome was as relevant as that of UAE today. I believe Adrian Goldsworthy in his book Augustus: First Emperor of Rome explained that only the local Romans, and even amongst them the wealthy elite class, socially reined supreme and were politically empowered in the ancient Roman Republic. Second class Romans citizens were allowed to participate in the statehood by voting. But their votes were usually meaningless as elections were systematically designed to ensure only the desired elites would win. In most cases the voters wouldn't even show up. Lower economic classes and non-Roman ethnic groups were treated as third rate citizens with extremely limited rights, if any. I doubt Romans would mingle or intermarry with immigrants under such circumstances. But then again, we are talking about the origins of Roman ethnicity and not the state. Intermarrying could take place before the rise of Roman civilization. Later to propagate their superiority they might have purged the knowledge of genetic connections to ethnic groups they deemed inferior. They certainly wouldn't want to be linked to ancestors of Carthaginians.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  6. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Study showed the Early Roman samples were 2/3 primitive Europeans who were taught civilization & most likely became the patricians, emperors and senators. And 1/3 Aegean/Greek, who built Rome because they had the skills to be masons and traders and skilled workers. That was the Republic.

    The Imperial time period had 80% of the sampled plebs as Greek, Anatolian, Lebanese and Syrian.

    The Republic only had a few samples. The Imperial age had 48 samples.

    What many don't realize from ancient DNA is that the primitive Europeans when they were taught metallurgy, they immediately figured out they can kill whole continents of people with bronze weapons, and began to wipe out as many men as they could find that were still in the stone age and rape the native women and keep them as slave-wives. Among the sample of ancient Gauls, there are none other than the seedline of primitive European thugs. The native male lines were completely wiped out by the Gauls. Same thing happened in Spain, Ireland and Britain. So when you find 1/1 sample of a Greek in Italy, this is news. They found 3 samples of J2 in pre-Republic/Etruscan times.

    Half the neolithic samples are J2a. This is big news. These J2 natives were wiped out by the primitive hut dwelling Italics who mainly knew how to use bronze tools in killing and conquering.

    100% of the Etruscan samples are J2b, because there was only one. Still a big deal that J2b is found. Some group of merchants from the Eastern Med likely founded merchant posts in the Central Med because there is an identical J2b in Croatia from that general time period.

    And there is a Greek T sample from the Italian Greek colonies found in Republican Rome region, showing that Greeks were part of the Roman Republic early on. As were the Etruscans, for Rome was once an Etruscan held city.
     
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  7. OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

    OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ FULL MEMBER

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    This is very damning for those pushing racial supremacy. DNA has ruined Hindu mythology in India and it has done the same now in Europe. While the only remaining religion in Europe is pretty much Abrahamic faiths that much is known but those peddling racial supremacy used to look at Roman and Greek civilizations as their predecessors... far from it as we now know... Steppe people totally changed the complexion of European ancestry and barbarians sacked Rome.
     
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  8. Indus Pakistan

    Indus Pakistan ELITE MEMBER

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    Okay. Mmmm no "Far Western"?
    Ehh what is wrong with West Asians?

    *notice the use of "Europe" but then the use of vacant Middle East. That is like calling Western Europe "Far West"
     
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  9. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Civilizations from pre-history to late antiquity in Eastern Mediterranean

    Minoan
    Mycenaean
    Ancient Greeks
    Macedonians
    Phoenician
    Assyrian
    Hittite
    Eastern Roman Empire


    Civilizations from Middle East:
    Sumerians
    Babylonians
    Medes
    Persians
    Parthian
    Sasanian


    Civilizations that influenced Rome:
    Carthaginians
    Etruscians
    Greeks

    On those from the steppe ruining Europe:

    Is distinctive DNA marker proof of ancient genocide?
    A controversial theory holds invaders from Iberia may have massacred much of Ireland’s male population

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/sci...na-marker-proof-of-ancient-genocide-1.1426197

    Every man in Spain was wiped out 4500 years ago by hostile invaders

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180923-every-man-in-spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders

    Did Dutch hordes kill off the early Britons who started Stonehenge?

    A gene study has shown that incomers could have ousted Stone Age Britons

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/20/dutch-invaders-stonehenge-ancient-britons

    The forefathers of Europe: Two thirds of modern European men descend from just THREE Bronze Age leaders

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...n-descended-just-trio-Bronze-Age-leaders.html

    Story of most murderous people of all time revealed in ancient DNA

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna

    A study on the Gauls show a total population replacement. Same is true in the Baltic and Scandinavian region during the Bronze Age.

    Like the Native Americans were nearly wiped out, even moreso the Native Europeans were nearly wiped out by Steppe Kurgans from Western to Eastern and Northern and Southern Europe. The Romans and the Germans/Vikings spread the Caucasian natives of Europe back into Europe.

    Those from the Middle East and the civilization crescent from Italy to Japan built cultures and civilizations. And still today, Europeans of Steppe ancestry are still for bombing and killing and genociding. They are still destroyers and nation wreckers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  10. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Here are two different migrations to Italy by the same J2a/G2a haplogroups in different periods. One around 5500 BCE or before. The other migration around 100 CE. So roughly 6000 years apart or more.

    First the J2a and G2a's came from the Middle East to Italy in the Neolithic period (see map below), making these two groups native Europeans.

    [​IMG]

    Enter scene steppe kurgans around 2000 BCE and these J2a and G2a natives were mostly wiped out in Italy during the Bronze Age invasion.

    Now the neo-nazis on various forums are foaming at the mouth how the city of Rome will filled with Middle Eastern people. Notice where the above NATIVES of Italy came from... the Middle East. These neo-nazis steppe kurgans ancestors killed off the neolithics natives who came to Italy from the Middle East, these native Italians are not hated by the Steppe kurgan neo-nazis of today...

    Second, the relatives of the first neolithic group, came during the Roman Empire on the same route as the neolithic natives of Europe to Italy (see below map). And guess what? they were also J2a and G2a's, same exact Caucasian Middle Eastern haplogroups of the neolithic natives of Italy. The Middle Eastern Roman plebs were more native than the steppe tribes. Those from the steppe are not the natives of Europe. Those from the Middle East are the natives of Europe.

    [​IMG]

    And yet, the neo-nazis who hate Muslims, hate these Romans because they were J2a and G2a Middle Easterners, relatives of the neolithic natives of Italy.

    The Middle Easterners are the natives of Italy. As are the Greeks, the Middle Easterners are the natives of Greece.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  11. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Here is a map of all over Europe, people from the Middle East living in Europe in the Neolithic period of Europe. Europe is for the people of the Middle East. For they are the natives. Middle Easterners are the natives of Europe.

    [​IMG]

    And these are from only hundreds of samples. If they look for more, they will find more Middle Easterners in pre-Ancient Europe.

    These Middle Easterners came to Europe with mostly Anatolian Neolithic DNA and also limited Iranian Neolithic DNA. They come from the Caucasus, as most Middle Easterners do, and so would have CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gathers) if they tested for this.

    Western Hunter Gathers are the Haplogroup I. And they were among the first in Europe, but lived in peace with the neolithic migrants from the Middle East. Brad Pitt is reported from the neolithic migrants from the Middle East, because he has a tatoo of Otzi the Iceman, a famous Middle Eastern migrant to Europe.

    Here is a scientific publication that states the neolithic farmers in Europe came from the Eastern Med. (Neolithic Greeks came from the Middle East. Not mentioned in the title article)

    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886

    Middle Easterners first brought farming to Europe. Then Middle Easterners brought civilization to Europe.

    [​IMG]

    The above gif is further proof that massive amounts of Middle Eastern Farmers migrated to Europe in the Neolithic period of Europe. They brought farming to Europe.

    The gif is from the report on Italy.

    Those from the steppe brought genocide to Europe in the Bronze Age. While Middle Easterners brought peace, farming and civilization.

    And those same neo-nazis from the steppe today are wanting to eliminate the Middle Easterners (and Muslims) from Europe AGAIN. They nearly wiped out the Neolithic European Farmers in Europe. Now that more are again from the Middle East in Europe, these same genociders are calling for the removal of the Middle Easterners from their family homeland of Europe, for Europe is the property of the good Middle Easterners.

    The steppe fake Europeans only knew how to steal, rape and genocide the native Europeans (many of whom were from the Middle East). Anyone wonder why the usual suspects (Western Europeans) still want to kill Middle Easterners today. They have been doing this for thousands of years.

    Bronze Age invasion of Europe - killed hundreds of thousands of Middle Easterners in Europe
    Germanic invasions of Rome - killed tens of thousands of Middle Easterners in Europe
    Crusades - killed thousands of Middle Easterners
    Wars for Israhell - killed millions of Middle Easterners in the Middle East

    Middle Easterners bring peace, skills, farming, civilization to Europe for thousands of years. Fake Europeans bring violence.

    The way of Middle Easterners is peace and love.
    The way of some Europeans is genocide, hate and violence.

    Shown in every research paper on aDNA.

    War and conquest does not equal genocide. Conquest was part of civilizations from the start. You are not allowed to wipe out good people.
     
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  12. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 BANNED

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    How much Old is name Rome ?
     
  13. ArabianEmpires&Caliphates

    ArabianEmpires&Caliphates FULL MEMBER

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    Middle Eastern Neolithic people = Proto-Semitic or Caucasiod natives of the Arab world.

    Since the first Neolithic civilizations in the world originated in the Arab world (Southern Levant and Northern Arabia) and the first Neolithic people (the same people who colonized Europe and introduced farming and what we can describe as the first real advanced civilization in the world) were ancestors of modern-day Arabs.

    For instance mummies/skeletons from the Natufian civilization (the people who funded the first settlements in the world and introduced agriculture) native to Southern Sham (Levant) where found to cluster the most with modern-day Arabs in particular Saudi Arabians (who clustered the most).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

    "The Epipaleolithic Natufian culture /nəˈtuːfiən/[1] existed from around 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the Levant, a region in the Eastern Mediterranean. It was unusual in that it supported a sedentary or semi-sedentary population even before the introduction of agriculture. The Natufian communities may be the ancestors of the builders of the first Neolithic settlements of the region, which may have been the earliest in the world. Natufians founded Jericho which may be the oldest city in the world. Some evidence suggests deliberate cultivation of cereals, specifically rye, by the Natufian culture, at Tell Abu Hureyra, the site of earliest evidence of agriculture in the world.[2] Generally, though, Natufians exploited wild cereals. Animals hunted included gazelles.[3] According to Christy G. Turner II, there is archaeological and physical anthropological evidence for a relationship between the modern Semitic-speaking populations of the Levant and the Natufians.[4]

    Dorothy Garrod coined the term Natufian based on her excavations at Shuqba cave in Wadi an-Natuf, in the western Judean Mountains."

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

    Here are the DNA results from last 2016

    https://plot.ly/~PortalAntropologiczny9cfa/1.embed?share_key=za9Lb3y1UX6nJRG9v4EXOL

    Here is the entire report:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf

    I am yet to see a non-Saudi Arabian show 100% Middle East on their DNA score.



    So those people were basically Proto-Semitic speakers (Afro-Asiatic speakers with certainty - oldest recorded language family in the world, 18.000 years - in other words predating the Neolithic period - so those early Neolithic peoples of the Middle East were Afro-Asiatic speakers) which also explains why most of Southern Europe and much of Europe (in fact over 50%) belong to the J haplogroup (which originated in the Arab world) and the brother I haplogroup as well as the same ancient maternal haplogroups that are native to Arabia.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    This also explains why the closest genetic "cousins" to Arabs/Middle Eastern people are Europeans, in particular Southern Europeans outside of ourselves. And why racist European scientists already in ancient times considered the people of the Middle East to be Caucasiod people.

    BTW, there are clear similarities between Semitic languages and Celtic ones such as Gaelic, Scottish etc. (Celtic languages in general) which confirms that before the arrival of the Indo-European nomads from modern-day Southern Russia, most if not all Europeans likely spoke Afro-Asiatic languages. What occurred was that the "barbarian" Indo-European nomads killed off many of those Neolithic Europeans in places like the British Isles, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia, yet most of the ancient DNA remained, only the language changed.



    Similar with the Anatolians speaking Turkic today yet having little to nothing to do with actual Turkic people, similar with the Hungarians speaking an Finno-Ugric language, despite being Slavic (mostly) genetically and Jamaicans (mostly ancestors of West Africans) speaking English and 100's of other examples.

    As for the Roman Empire, literals half of its territory was located in the Arab World/Middle East so not really surprising. Even parts of modern-day KSA (Hijaz) were part of the Roman Empire although ruled by local rulers allied with Rome. Mutual influences occurred both ways too.

    Just a small glimpse:

    [​IMG]

    BTW this explains (not even talking about the Arab presence in Sicily and Southern Italy and the strong cultural and linguistic influences) why many Sicilians and Calabrian people often have very familiar facial features to us Arabs. Skin color is irrelevant here although many Sicilians and Calabrians are olive-skinned as well. I have noticed this trend (facial features) more in Sicilians and Southern Italians than anywhere else in Southern Europe alongside Southern Spain (Andalusia - where it has been confirmed that genetically 15-20% of the population have Arab/Berber paternal genes), Cyprus (Greekized Semites in many ways - to this day you have an Cypriotic Arabic dialect - the rarest Arabic dialect in the world), Crete and Southern Greece. Transport those people to the Arab world, give them a tan (time in the sun will quickly ensure that during the summer months), learn them Arabic, make them wear local clothing, and more often than not, you would have a hard time picking many of them apart.

    Which actually is not a coincidence when you look at the most common haplogroup of those regions which is the J haplogroup (J1 and J2).

    Anyway all of the above (as well as the news of this thread) should not really be news to any educated Italian that has studied the genetic history of Europe, Southern Europe in particular.


    History is far more complicated than what is made out and ancient history has nothing to do with modern-day politics.

    A correction. Phoenicians were not a nomadic people. Semitic peoples such as Phoenicians where the first settled people and founded the oldest cities and settlements in the world. However Phoenicians were the greatest trading civilization in the ancient world and colonized much of the Mediterranean. You had Phoenician settlements from Portugal in the West to Southern France in the North to Tunisia and Libya in the South to modern-day Palestine/Sinai in the East.

    Phoenicians were originally from Eastern Arabia BTW, the borderlands of Arabia, Southern Levant and Southern Mesopotamia being the Urheimat (homeland) of the Semitic peoples.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Most of Southern and Central Italy, including Sardinia, have retained their Middle Eastern Neolithic origins, hence why the haplogroup J (J1 and J2) and haplogroup I (both are brother haplogroups descending from haplogroup IJ, hence the name IJ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ are the most common in Italy to this very day. It is mostly Northern Italy that is of a more recent Germanic ancestry due to Germanic tribes having dominated that region of Italy in the past 1500 + years starting with the Kingdom of the Lombards. But if I recall, Haplogroup I is the most common haplogroup in Germany (especially Southern Germany), so many of that Germanic influence in Northern Italy is actually ancient Neolithic (Middle Eastern) as well.
     
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  14. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab SENIOR MEMBER

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    Ah, this would explain my mothers DNA being very mixed with different things including Middle Eastern while being Sardinian. It seems that somehow Arab DNA got into the bloodline.
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    Admixture is a junk science, because it is not scientific, those in white suits determine which dna is for different regions, when much of the DNA is shared between regions, so those in white suits pick what is what, unscientifically. That is why each company gives completely different results. This is why so many come up Askanazi jewish, these companies first criteria is for jewish customers who want to come out as much jewish as possible. Native Americans sometimes don't even come out as native American, because they are last in priority in most companies, meaning native american DNA gets placed with others groups who share the DNA with native Americans. So many come out jewish, barely anybody comes out native american, because those in the white suits determine this as the outcome. Admixture is fixed and bogus. Only comparatively does admixture 'work', but you are looking at somebody extreme biases.

    Plotting is more scientific as is who are you most related to. These don't fix made up groups' certain DNA and is more scientific.

     
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