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Malala Yousufzai bashed for 'Oxford Attire' and it's quite appalling.

Secur

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Simple economics.

Constitution of Pakistan is not the issue, the issue is of governance and corruption.

My parents left UK in early 70's to return to Pakistan, after having lived in UK for less than 7 years.

Stay in UK is not permanent. I know many who having established steady incomes here have moved back to Pakistan. I'm in the process of doing the same.

The way I look at it, Brits looted us back in the days so us earning here is not a big deal.

Thank you for being truthful. Please understand that I have no qualms with you guys living in the West, its none of my business and people are free to spend their life, as they please. My contention is with something else.

Sadly, I read the same "opportunism" (the taking of opportunities as and when they arise, regardless of planning or principle) and "hypocrisy" (behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel) as the reasons for your continual stay there, the same that you have been accusing Miss Malala Yousufzai of. You had an opportunity for the betterment of your life and you took it, the little girl did the same. But the difference is that her life was at peril, yours isn't, economic prosperity is your aim, hers is survival.

Furthermore, you guys can live anywhere in the world, but choose the same secular liberal West, with the same people and ideology, that you detest and want to deal with, but in Pakistan. There's a reason why the choice isn't Middle East, Far East, Africa e.t.c, there's a reason why the choice isn't one of the brotherly Muslim countries. The reason is that they won't provide you with the same rights, freedom, equality, opportunity and prosperity, that you have there. If you were to further inquire, as to why they wouldn't do so, you would find the reason to be the same things that you abhor and would fight with, in your own country.

Please, make me understand, what to make of it.
 

livingdead

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Simple economics.

Constitution of Pakistan is not the issue, the issue is of governance and corruption.

My parents left UK in early 70's to return to Pakistan, after having lived in UK for less than 7 years.

Stay in UK is not permanent. I know many who having established steady incomes here have moved back to Pakistan. I'm in the process of doing the same.

The way I look at it, Brits looted us back in the days so us earning here is not a big deal.
brits defeated us in war, established rule over us, and did what many other invaders do.
They did not sneak in to our country, live among us, and try to beat us by taking any advantage.
There is a big difference. Plus this generation of brits owe us nothing...
i used to have a friend when i was a kid who will steal sweets from halwai, and tell us... the bania loots us... i just stole 1 sweet... seemed totally legit then...

i do agree on one point, there is no british culture one can be forced to adhere to, inside our homes. As long as it does not violate the law(and if the law is fair), we should be able to do what we like, eat what we like, dress the way we like.
 

Verve

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Sadly, I read the same "opportunism" (the taking of opportunities as and when they arise, regardless of planning or principle) and "hypocrisy" (behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel) as the reasons for your continual stay there, the same that you have been accusing Miss Malala Yousufzai of.

I hate to say it but you are twisting it so bad that it is becoming repulsive now!

Hypocrisy would be to moan about Pakistani society as whole that she's been doing. Am I saying the same about Pakistan whilst living off the British State as she is??????

I have no issues with Malala living anywhere getting whatever benefits she's getting, my primary issue is with her apparent qualification to paint a bad brush on Pakistani people. She's a nobel winner and should control the words coming out of her mouth when talking about Pakistan! As for the reference you were asking, pick up her statements after Mishal Khan murder. It is plastered all over the net, search yourself!

You are making this personal .... and I would caution you against it as I can also start personal attacks on yourself but I do not wish to. Kindly do not test my limits!

And I have lived a big chunk of my life in another Islamic country that actually enforces Sharia - and enjoyed every bit of it! Wanting full implementation of the constitution in Pakistan doesn't make me a hypocrite and if you think it does then you are a fool of high calibre.

And let me enlighten you ..... it is the strict rule of law in countries like UK that are holding it back from chaos. And implementing rule of law has got jack all to do with secularism. That is why such countries are favoured to make a living, not because of the secular system.

As for the secular system, it will suck those into it who think it's all glitter ... been there done it and know it all too well - it is rotten. Little do you know!
 

Secur

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why expect equal opportunity? well it is the governments job to provide its citizen the equal opportunity. i would prefer an oxford like institution in Pakistan as well.
the constitution guarantees equal and fair opportunity for the masses. if the state cannot offer this than it is a failed state. preferential treatments are common in Pakistan and thus why the outrage over petty things.

do not be discouraged. every shade of every color exists in this world. you cannot just get discouraged just because people do not tend to agree to a certain POV.

she is like a little celebrity so this is part and parcel of the fame. you know her problems goes way way and much deeper than just some internet steam blowers.

nobody is cursing fate nor they can. they are just voicing their anguish at something you may call fate but is actually a well designed gig. you know that yourself my friend.

I plead "no contest" actually. In the UAE, I have seen people concern themselves mostly with their own business, tolerate others well and don't criticize necessarily or get angry over petty things. UAE has one of the world's highest HDI rating. I can see the point, that you are trying to make.

You are making this personal .... and I would caution you against it as I can also start personal attacks on yourself but I do not wish to. Kindly do not test my limits!

I didn't engage you in this conversation, brother dear. You chose to involve yourself, in this, by your own choice. You chose to share stories and explain the reasons yourself. I am merely explaining the reasons behind it and pointing out that what the little girl did, wasn't so different. Take it easy.

And I am still waiting for the link because I would like to see, what she said negatively about Pakistani society.
 

El Sidd

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I plead "no contest" actually. In the UAE, I have seen people concern themselves mostly with their own business, tolerate others well and don't criticize necessarily or get angry over petty things. UAE has one of the world's highest HDI rating. I can see the point, that you are trying to make.

UAE is good for work not for calling home.

But it serves as a good example where the law is implemented thus rendering the debate on it rather worth it
 

Verve

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And I am still waiting for the link because I would like to see, what she said negatively about Pakistani society.

Now sit and digest this!

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/mal...hing-has-brought-disgrace-to-pakistan-1681842

Without understanding any facts about the case (that it had nothing to do with religion, it was University politics!), she goes off:

"This incident alone has brought disgrace to our nation"

"We complain of Islamophobia and say that other nations are disgracing us. No one is doing that. It is us who are giving a bad name to our country,"

"We have forgotten our values and are not representing our religion,"

She could have waited for facts if she was so desperate to comment but no she joined the usual bandwagon ....

Has she retracted her statement now that is a well known fact that political power was the cause of the murder!

Gosh, is she so dumb!!????? Oh wait, the immature excuse will come out. Well, when immature people make statements on false information, then they will get bollocked for it.

And why is she talking on behalf of Pakistani people .... We / Us .... who qualified her!?

If a Western nobel winner made a statement painting his countrymen as such over one incident he didn't know facts of, you know all too well how the public of that country would react! How many people killed in USA recently? Did any US nobel winner comment as such about American people forgetting their values etc etc??? Answer that!

I didn't engage you in this conversation, brother dear.

Yes you did engage me in a conversation with you. You quoted me first, kindly revisit the pages.
 

Secur

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And let me enlighten you ..... it is the strict rule of law in countries like UK that are holding it back from chaos. And implementing rule of law has got jack all to do with secularism. That is why such countries are favoured to make a living, not because of the secular system.

As for the secular system, it will suck those into it who think it's all glitter ... been there done it and know it all too well - it is rotten. Little do you know!

Not the whole story, again. Define this inevitable and nearly there "chaos". The reasons are far many than just the rule of law. They might include the state not concerning itself with what the individuals are doing, inside their homes (something which I believe, that you agreed with yourself, in an earlier post here), freedom of practicing religion, freedom of speech, freedom of action (with certain limitations of course), the will to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own, considering all citizens "equal", good governance, low corruption, security and working institutions have all played a part. And nothing is all "glitter" ever because we don't live in utopia, mostly good will do for realistic people. And "rotten" is what you prefer, still.

As for the "living in a Sharia compliant Islamic country for a long time and enjoying it thoroughly" part, I can see clearly that its not me that you are trying to convince. Not to mention, not one of the brotherly Muslim counties are willing to offer immigrants, the citizenship and the same enjoyed by its native people.

"We complain of Islamophobia and say that other nations are disgracing us. No one is doing that. It is us who are giving a bad name to our country,"

"We have forgotten our values and are not representing our religion,"

Classic example of making a mountain out of mole-hill! I was expecting something damning, but she simply repeated what many Pakistanis said over the social media, after the incident. The facts came out different, in the end, but the initial motive found for the poor guy's murder was blasphemy. Not her mistake, right? What she said is still true, actually, even if made in a general sense (If you don't agree, see the conflict in North-West Pakistan since '01, from a foreign perspective). The denial of problems and sweeping the bad under the rug, will not get us anywhere. Addressing the elephant, in the room, will. Please, understand that only through acceptance, will there be understanding and only through understanding, will there be recovery.

And notice the word "we", she didn't exclude herself. She still considers herself to be a part of the same Pakistani nation. The way I see it is these things happening is fine, but for someone to point it out, is wrong and treacherous. I don't agree with you. I am certain that most other Pakistanis, would see the above quoted statements, just fine. I have seen far too many people, say the same, every now and then. On social media, print media, talk shows, during interaction with other people. The next criticism, please.

Yes you did engage me in a conversation with you. You quoted me first, kindly revisit the pages.

Not on, what you are complaining about now, though. I was interacting with @Iqbal Ali over his post that the "liberal brigade" needs to be dealt with. If you are so sensitive about these issues, you probably shouldn't have quoted me and then continued the discussion.

And why is she talking on behalf of Pakistani people .... We / Us .... who qualified her!?

I will tell you what qualified her. Its simple, actually.

The nationality of Pakistan acquired through "jus soli" (the right of soil - by being born and present in one of the provinces and territories under the administration of the state of Islamic republic of Pakistan)

Pakistanis can speak on behalf of the Pakistani people, this much I think, has been established beyond the shadow of the doubt.
 
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Verve

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she simply repeated what many Pakistanis said over the social media, after the incident

lol

Keep being a malala apologist. She makes serious blunder in judgement and you justify it as 'not her mistake'. Gullible people should learn to keep their mouths shut. As I said before, she shouldn't be commenting on Pakistan based on what she reads on social media.

As for 'we', no one will say that she's one of the we. Gosh. How naive are you?! It's such a simple trick to include ones self yet accusing others.

Keep at it, well done.

--------------

As for freedom of speech, you should see the reaction of the English against some idiots talk of wanting sharia law imposed in London. Just like desi seculars, there are idiots here too who wants to impose minority rule on a majority and getting properly bashed for it by an organisation that's willing and declared to go violent!!! No majority likes their favoured system openly challenged, it's no different anywhere! See the similarity? Or still blind?

Again, do you want me to give you sources? Actually I don't have that much time to spoon feed you, search yourself.
 

Secur

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Actually I don't have that much time to spoon feed you, search yourself.

The burden of the proof, lies on the claimant, brother. You won't exactly be doing me a favor or spoon-feeding me, by providing sources. But I will look for it, myself. Lets see what I find.

As for freedom of speech, you should see the reaction of the English against some idiots talk of wanting sharia law imposed in London. Just like desi seculars, there are idiots here too who wants to impose minority rule on a majority and getting properly bashed for it by an organisation that's willing and declared to go violent!!! No majority likes their favoured system openly challenged, it's no different anywhere! See the similarity? Or still blind?

It would be relevant if secular and/or liberals were trying to change the system here, in Pakistan. Relax, its still the Islamic republic and it will remain so.
 
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VCheng

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I will tell you what qualified her. Its simple, actually.

The nationality of Pakistan acquired through "jus soli" (the right of soil - by being born and present in one of the provinces and territories under the administration of the state of Islamic republic of Pakistan)

Pakistanis can speak on behalf of the Pakistani people, this much I think, has been established beyond the shadow of the doubt.

The problem here is not one of respecting rights afforded to sons and daughters of the soil. The problem here is one of deeply ingrained intolerance that generates a knee-jerk rejection simply if the view expressed does not fit in with rigid pre-conceived notions. There is no cure for such a mentality that cannot comprehend, let alone accept a diversity of views, thoughts and opinions.
 
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Verve

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Pakistanis can speak on behalf of the Pakistani people, this much I think, has been established beyond the shadow of the doubt.

I call BS on that!

Pakistanis can say that there are bad elements in the society but no Pakistani has a damn right to label the whole society as such.

West has a lot of issues but no prominent politician or citizen will accuse the whole society. And when people here do so,they apologies and revise their statement - that malala has not done so. If she revises my objections will be no more but she will not for the reasons I've already given.

Btw, have you found a US novel winner condemning the American values and society for recent murder of 58 people by a whithe American male?
 

Secur

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The problem here is not one of rights afforded to sons and daughters of the soil. The problem here is one of deeply ingrained intolerance that generates a knee-jerk rejection simply if the view expressed does not fit in with rigid pre-conceived notions. There is no cure for such a mentality that cannot comprehend, let alone accept a diversity of views, thoughts and opinions.

Look here.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-hidden-shame-of-pakistan.523932/page-6#post-9956366
 

Verve

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The burden of the proof, lies on the claimant, brother. You won't exactly be doing me a favor or spoon-feeding me, by providing sources. But I will look for it, myself. Lets see what I find.



It would be relevant if secular and/or liberals were trying to change the system here, in Pakistan. Relax, its still the Islamic republic and it will remain so.

Secular and liberals are trying ... Look at one here (a post or two above) who wants to see major changes in constitution to remove Allah's sovereignty ...
 

Divergent

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Thank you for being truthful. Please understand that I have no qualms with you guys living in the West, its none of my business and people are free to spend their life, as they please. My contention is with something else.

Sadly, I read the same "opportunism" (the taking of opportunities as and when they arise, regardless of planning or principle) and "hypocrisy" (behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel) as the reasons for your continual stay there, the same that you have been accusing Miss Malala Yousufzai of. You had an opportunity for the betterment of your life and you took it, the little girl did the same. But the difference is that her life was at peril, yours isn't, economic prosperity is your aim, hers is survival.

Furthermore, you guys can live anywhere in the world, but choose the same secular liberal West, with the same people and ideology, that you detest and want to deal with, but in Pakistan. There's a reason why the choice isn't Middle East, Far East, Africa e.t.c, there's a reason why the choice isn't one of the brotherly Muslim countries. The reason is that they won't provide you with the same rights, freedom, equality, opportunity and prosperity, that you have there. If you were to further inquire, as to why they wouldn't do so, you would find the reason to be the same things that you abhor and would fight with, in your own country.

Please, make me understand, what to make of it.

I am learning so much from you.
 

Secur

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Secular and liberals are trying ... Look at one here (a post or two above) who wants to see major changes in constitution to remove Allah's sovereignty ...

What are they doing, in deed (not words) to attain that? Do you see them on the streets, asking for any radical changes, as per their liking? Any protests or demonstrations? Why do you guys feel threatened then?
 

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