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El Sidd

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I have changed my views in light of this post.

They should all be forced into financial transparency for the greater good of society as moral obligation.

I take back my argument.
Large donations have to be recorded in charities due to money laundering rules. The govt is obviously not asking for names of every namazi that drops 10 rupees in the bucket.

if a masjid receives 1 crore rupees from an individual, that person has no reason not to have id recorded.
"Yeh bikk gai hai Gormint ".... :-)

 

krash

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Portraying Mosques and Madrassas as terror camps to please foreign masters. This is a thing I cannot stand. The ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan takes actions against its own STATE RELIGION.

The religious practice of the STATE RELIGION should not be influenced by foreign agencies.
Or maybe fix these places through whatever measures so that they can't be used as terror camps, which they are? The Prophet (S.A.W) destroyed a mosque when it was learnt that it was a source mischief against the Muslims. You can't stomach disclosing finances to your own government? How senselessly emotional can we be? It is the same episode of "nai nai jee. TTP hamaray musalman bhai hain jee."

These places have been the source of countless atrocities, murders, and extremism across the country and you are worried about how these measures would make them look? They use these naive emotions of the Pakistani awam to get away with literally murder. If you are really worried about Islam, maybe support the measures which would help stop these mosques and madrassa's from spreading havoc in the name of Islam and in turn destroying its image?

Yes, if they have evidence or a hunch that I could be involved in criminal activity, not just out of curiosity and with no good reason!
No, completely incorrect. The government can force you to do it to even just prevent the possibility of any future wrong doing which may or may not occur. In fact, they already do. Try depositing $100,000 in your bank account tomorrow in cash and see what happens. The government has all the rights to your financial info.

Mosques and madrassas are OPEN to the public like a sports assocition would be, there are not public institutions! For qualifying as public institutions they must be funded by the government.
By a public institution I meant an institute or any entity which has a direct baring on the public. Not the legal definition of the term.

Regardless, a private institute is just as liable to these rules.


I couldn't care less about mullahs and their idiocracy. It's about the fact that government sanctions Muslim institutions because foreign Masters think that mosques and madrassas are terror camps. In many cases they are the only people who provide basic education for the poor.
Does not matter. The fact instead is that hundreds of Mosques and Madrassa's have been sources of manpower and funds for extremists and terrorists, money laundering, furthering foreign governments' agendas, and mass miss-education for our kids. I do not care who is forcing the government to do this as long as it is being done. It should have been done by us 30 years ago.


ps: No they are not a source of education for the poor. They are overwhelmingly the largest source of producing uneducated, illiterate, emotionally charged, rabid mobs which have been the source of most of our problems since the past 50 years.


They are in power and get a salary provided by the tax payers so they have to be transparent about their finances and should be!
Incorrect. That is not the only reason one can be asked to declare their finances and assets. I've already explained it above.
 
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Itachi

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Does not matter. The fact instead is that hundreds of Mosques and Madrassa's have been sources of manpower and funds for extremists and terrorists, money laundering, furthering foreign governments' agendas, and mass miss-education for our kids. I do not care who is forcing the government to do this as long as it is being done. It should have been done by us 30 years ago.


ps: No they are not a source of education for the poor. They are overwhelmingly the largest source of producing uneducated, illiterate, emotionally charged, rabid mobs which have been the source of most of our problems since the past 50 years.
If the Govt. can't do its job. People will find someone else. Cue the Madrassa's. 😉

I'm wholly for the Madrassa system, as long as it teaches both religion, science & technical skills.

Kids graduating from such places have done more good than anyone else. Believe me, they spanked the Soviets and then the Muricans.

What is the accomplishment of Pakistanis schools?? Acting like surrogates for Western colleges? :D

Helping in the brain drain of the nation??

Whatever the emotional state of madrassa kids (only a minority act like what you described them as), most are productive citizens of Pakistan. They either work under someone or run small businesses.
 

krash

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If the Govt. can't do its job. People will find someone else. Cue the Madrassa's. 😉
It's a placebo, at best. Poison in reality. You wouldn't start gulping down poison because you can't get food.

I'm wholly for the Madrassa system, as long as it teaches both religion, science & technical skills.
That would be a traditional school. You and I both know that that is not what madrassa's are or would ever become.

Kids graduating from such places have done more good than anyone else. Believe me, they spanked the Soviets and then the Muricans.
That is a nonsensical statement and you know it. I am not here for childish back and forths.

What is the accomplishment of Pakistanis schools?? Acting like surrogates for Western colleges? :D
Providing vocational and academic opportunities is one. Not producing brain-dead sheep in mass would be another.

Helping in the brain drain of the nation??
Again, a ridiculous statement. The schools are in no way responsible for any brain drain. Unless you meant that without them there would be no brain to drain. Thank you madrassa's for producing an army of unemployables and non-achievers whom no one wants. /insert Roll Safe meme

It is the state of the country that is responsible for it. Which is, in substantial part, due to the madrassa graduates.

Whatever the emotional state of madrassa kids (only a minority act like what you described them as), most are productive citizens of Pakistan. They either work under someone or run small businesses.
Madrassa's are the creators and perpetuators of religious corruption, intolerance, and miss-education in the country. These effects reach beyond the graduates themselves.

While a minority might be involved in the extremes, the overwhelming majority is still a plague.
 

Itachi

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It's a placebo, at best. Poison in reality. You wouldn't start gulping down poison because you can't get food.
Poison? Those folks are doing just fine.

That would be a traditional school. You and I both know that that is not what madrassa's are or would ever become.
"Traditional school"?? Is that an angrezi word for "Madrassas"? :rolleyes:

That is a nonsensical statement and you know it. I am not here for childish back and forths.
So who defeated the Soviets and the US in Afghanistan?? Pakistani Ph.D's?

Providing vocational and academic opportunities is one. Not producing brain-dead sheep in mass would be another.
Hive mind works great. Just look at China and Chinese.

Madrassa's are the creators and perpetuators of religious corruption, intolerance, and miss-education in the country. These effects reach beyond the graduates them selves. Exactly as it is for an educational institute.

While a minority might be involved in the extremes, the overwhelming majority is still a plague.
Madrassas have existed for more than 1000 years in one form or another.....where was this "religious corruption, intolerance and miss education" for the past 1000 years??

You're attributing symptoms to the wrong disease.
 

krash

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Poison? Those folks are doing just fine.
Yeah, sure.


















"Traditional school"?? Is that an angrezi word for "Madrassas"? :rolleyes:
Angrezi for an actual school.


So who defeated the Soviets and the US in Afghanistan?? Pakistani Ph.D's?
Yes, actually. Along with some of the brightest minds of many other countries who supported, enabled, and trained those madrassa graduates with years of effort and billions of dollars, on both occasions.


Hive mind works great. Just look at China and Chinese.
Have you looked at Afghanistan and the Afghanis? India and the Indians? Sudan and the Sudanese? Rwanda and the Tutsis? Yugoslavia and the Serbs? Pakistan and the Pakistanis?

The guy from your nearest madrassa wouldn't know what Rwanda is.

Madrassas have existed for more than 1000 years in one form or another.....where was this "religious corruption, intolerance and miss education" for the past 1000 years??
And it took exactly these 1000 years to bring the Muslim nations from their zenith to their knees.

Before the 1000 years? The madrassa's taught Greek Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Biology, Medicine, Physics, Comparative Politics, Architecture, Jurisprudence.

You're attributing symptoms to the wrong disease.
Not at all.
 

Itachi

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Yeah, sure.




















Angrezi for an actual school.




Yes, actually. Along with some of the brightest minds of many other countries who supported, enabled, and trained those madrassa graduates with years of effort and billions of dollars, on both occasions.




Have you looked at Afghanistan and the Afghanis? India and the Indians? Sudan and the Sudanese? Rwanda and the Tutsis? Yugoslavia and the Serbs? Pakistan and the Pakistanis?

The guy from your nearest madrassa wouldn't know what Rwanda is.



And it took exactly these 1000 years to bring the Muslim nations from their zenith to their knees.

Before the 1000 years? The madrassa's taught Greek Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Biology, Medicine, Physics, Comparative Politics, Architecture, Jurisprudence.



Not at all.
Greek Philosophy?? Who taught that?? Might have had translated Greek stuff in the libraries but no one taught Greek Philosophy. Islam had better things in it already.

Btw, can Pakistani PhD's or even the Army do the below stuff??




I get that the last 2 are nation states but they still fight like Madrassa kids. :D

Afghan Taliban & Al Qaeda have been the bane of Soviets and the US for a long time. We all know Musharraf bowed down like a poodle when confronted with American might. So much for Pakistani education. :rolleyes:
 

doorstar

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So who defeated the Soviets [...]in Afghanistan?? Pakistani Ph.D's?
Pakistani, American and British regulars and special forces masquerading as Afghans. while your mujhis were too busy sodomizing each other or shagging their pack animals or were high on their special herbal smokes

FYI no one has defeated the US in Afghanistan (or anyplace else in mid-east yet)
 

Itachi

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Greek Philosophy?? Who taught that?? Might have had translated Greek stuff in the libraries but no one taught Greek Philosophy. Islam had better things in it already.

Btw, can Pakistani PhD's or even the Army do the below stuff??




I get that the last 2 are nation states but they still fight like Madrassa kids. :D

Afghan Taliban & Al Qaeda have been the bane of Soviets and the US for a long time. We all know Musharraf bowed down like a poodle when confronted with American might. So much for Pakistani education. :rolleyes:
Btw...guys like these could have easily retaken Kashmir. Only if they were allowed. :smokin:
Pakistani, American and British regulars and special forces masquerading as Afghans. while your mujhis were too busy sodomizing each other or shagging their pack animals or were high on their special herbal smokes

FYI no one has defeated the US in Afghanistan (or anyplace else in mid-east yet)
Wow look at your facts! :lol:

Got a source kid? Also, watch the above videos. That's how real men fight.
FYI no one has defeated the US in Afghanistan (or anyplace else in mid-east yet)
Then why is the US and NATO in such a hurry to leave Afghanistan??

If I remember correctly, after US casualties, the Brits have the 2nd highest. :lol:

20 years worth of coffins and $$$ spent and still running from Afghanistan like last time (The Great Game). :smokin:

Educate yourself on British Defeat:

 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Btw, can Pakistani PhD's or even the Army do the below stuff??
These are the same kinds of arguments people used to bring up on this forum during the Musharraf years when many of us were arguing for the merger of FATA into Pakistan proper, ending the weapon culture etc. The same arguments were used against deploying the Pakistani Army in FATA to control the area and de-weaponize it, and those attitudes continued till the terrorist massacre of children and teachers at the Army Public School in Peshawar.

Even back then people would argue, 'these people are warriors and another line of defence for Pakistan, who liberated Kashmir etc etc'. Such romanticized views of an entire community, that in fact relegates them to 'beasts of war' capable of only one thing - fighting - is in fact far more of an imperial/colonial mindset than anything else.

As the military leadership has said time and again, only the State can have a monopoly on violence,

You want to defend Pakistan? Join the military or para-military forces.
 

Itachi

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These are the same kinds of arguments people used to bring up on this forum during the Musharraf years when many of us were arguing for the merger of FATA into Pakistan proper, ending the weapon culture etc. The same arguments were used against deploying the Pakistani Army in FATA to control the area and de-weaponize it, and those attitudes continued till the terrorist massacre of children and teachers at the Army Public School in Peshawar.

Even back then people would argue, 'these people are warriors and another line of defence for Pakistan, who liberated Kashmir etc etc'. Such romanticized views of an entire community, that in fact relegates them to 'beasts of war' capable of only one thing - fighting - is in fact far more of an imperial/colonial mindset than anything else.

As the military leadership has said time and again, only the State can have a monopoly on violence,

You want to defend Pakistan? Join the military or para-military forces.
Musharraf?? That guy who bowed down to Bush and the US??

The same guy who ran to Dubai and is now considered a traitor to Pakistan?

Or you wanna talk about the Afghan Taliban, under the leadership of Mullah Omar and others, so called "madrassa educated people" who didn't bow down but fought on for the past 21 years??

And now we can see the results. :D

You want to defend Pakistan? Join the military or para-military forces.
I don't need to. I have bigger goals. You guys and your nationalist friends are doing a great job. :enjoy:
As the military leadership has said time and again, only the State can have a monopoly on violence,
Violence?? Are we talking about the same thing??

I'm talking about Offensive capabilities....which PA lacks a lot of. Otherwise, Kashmir would have been ours for the past 70 years.

We both know PA can't just march into India so why not let the Madrassa kids do it???

You'll shoot two birds with one stone.....they'll most likely die (good for you).......and maybe, some of them will succeed (good for both of us).

I know the reason why no one would let them do it is because it'll show the cowardice of everyone else who can't dare to attack India. :D
 
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Goritoes

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Chor ki Dari mai Tinka ... thing is that religious mafia is so strong in Pakistan, they will burn the entire country to the ground for just regulating the mosques and their finances.
 

krash

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Greek Philosophy?? Who taught that?? Might have had translated Greek stuff in the libraries but no one taught Greek Philosophy. Islam had better things in it already.
You should tell that to Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, ibn-Sina, and ibn-Rushd. Most of Al-Ghazali's career was based on countering the Greek influence on Muslim philosophers. I'm sure even madrassa graduates have heard of Ibn-Sina and Al-Ghazali.

Your statement is a clear example of how in the absence of education and knowledge our people are driven by childish sentiment and will present ridiculous "facts". Exactly the thing madrassa's perpetuate. It has nothing to do with Islam, academics, history, or the truth. You had no clue what you were talking about, you had no idea about Muslim philosophers, their history and their works, you had no clue if the religion itself ever gave us anything in the way of Philosophy, maybe you don't even know what philosophy is, and yet you took it upon yourself to pass a sickeningly false statement with all the pomp and confidence in the world. Now that I have countered your ignorance with irrefutable facts a friend of yours from a madrassa will label me a heretic.

"Islam had better things in it already"....what a hilariously ignorant statement.

Btw, can Pakistani PhD's or even the Army do the below stuff??



You think turban wearing, beard wielding maulvis made those drones and the missiles fired from them? Or that they could even be taught how to use them? Remember what I said about nonsense?

Afghan Taliban & Al Qaeda have been the bane of Soviets and the US for a long time. We all know Musharraf bowed down like a poodle when confronted with American might. So much for Pakistani education. :rolleyes:
Afghan Taliban & Al Qaeda have been massacred in their homes for the past 4 decades. The Soviets lost 15000 men after killing 2 million Afghans. The Americans have killed 111,000 Afghans so far after losing 2,372 of their soldiers. What bane? They come out of their caves where they defecate in buckets to hit a lonely convoy only to then scatter back to where they don't have running water? None of which, btw, would have been remotely possible were they not being supplied, funded, and supported by half a dozen other countries. These are the sort of arguments one presents when their is a severe lack of education.


I'm talking about Offensive capabilities....which PA lacks a lot of. Otherwise, Kashmir would have been ours for the past 70 years.

We both know PA can't just march into India so why not let the Madrassa kids do it???

You'll shoot two birds with one stone.....they'll most likely die (good for you).......and maybe, some of them will succeed (good for both of us).

I know the reason why no one would let them do it is because it'll show the cowardice of everyone else who can't dare to attack India. :D
You mean the way they did in 48? Or for decades till the 2000s? Do you know why and how they failed in 48? You're not very informed, are you?


ps: You do realize that the Pakistani Army has been beating the crap out of Madrassa Graduates for the past many years now, right? You know, the great "Mujahids of Islam" who attack undefended women and children while stoned out of their minds?
 
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Itachi

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You should tell that to Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, ibn-Sina, and ibn-Rushd. Most of Al-Ghazali's career was based on countering the Greek influence on Muslim philosophers. I'm sure even madrassa graduates have heard of Ibn-Sina and Al-Ghazali.
Sure, some were influenced by the Greeks but most took the good part (very few) and refuted the bad parts (many). Prime example is Al-Ghazali. Hujjat al-Islām, the Proof of Islam. :D

No one cares about dead Greek philosophers when you got Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali's works have even been taught in a scientific way too, especially in my Alma Matter (here in the US).





"Islam had better things in it already"....what a hilariously ignorant statement.
You seem to be ignorant of what Islam has to offer. The above YT video by a Murican provides good proof of how Islam is superior to all school of thoughts, religions basically.

You think turban wearing, beard wielding maulvis made those drones and the missiles fired from them? Or that they could even be taught how to use them? Remember what I said about nonsense?
Iranians probably made them. Guess who's their leader?? Yup...that turban wearing, beard wielding one. :lol:

Afghan Taliban & Al Qaeda have been massacred in their homes for the past 4 decades. The Soviets lost 15000 men after killing 2 million Afghans. The Americans have killed 111,000 Afghans so far after losing 2,372 of their soldiers. What bane? They come out of their caves where they shit in buckets to hit a lonely convoy only to then scatter back to where they don't have running water? None of which, btw, would have been remotely possible were they not being supplied, funded, and supported by half a dozen other countries. These are the sort of arguments one presents when their is a severe lack of education.
Civilian casualties....come on hahaha

So what is more Mujahedeen and Jundullah have been killed?? They're all in a better place. Higher body count doesn't mean the other side won. They simply lost because they couldn't digest their body count. :D

At least they fought the British (pre-1900's), the Soviets (late 20th) and the Muricans (21st). Which superpower has Pakistan defeated in direct combat with all it's military prowess???

Is Kashmir still in India?? Yep...

You mean the way they did in 48? Or for decades till the 2000s? Do you know why and how they failed in 48? You're not very informed, are you?
They were the first to push in 48. Then came the Army. If not for some Kashmiri traitors, they could have taken Srinagar. My ancestral home.

You seem to have read some doctored Army books. :lol:

ps: You do realize that the Pakistani Army has been beating the crap out of Madrassa Graduates for the past many years now, right? You know, the great "Mujahids of Islam" who attack undefended women and children while stoned out of their minds?
They're not the ones I'm talking about. Either way, they're aren't fully defeated. They still do bomb attacks here and there.

Reply to me when they're fully defeated. For that to happen, Pakistan will have to go into Afghanistan and do some bomb attacks inside India. Both possibilities we both know Pakistan doesn't have the guts to do. :devil:
 

krash

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Sure, some were influenced by the Greeks but most took the good part (very few) and refuted the bad parts (many). Prime example is Al-Ghazali. Hujjat al-Islām, the Proof of Islam. :D

No one cares about dead Greek philosophers when you got Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali's works have even been taught in a scientific way too, especially in my Alma Matter (here in the US).


You seem to be ignorant of what Islam has to offer. The above YT video by a Murican provides good proof of how Islam is superior to all school of thoughts, religions basically.
I keep repeating that I don't have time for infantile back and forths.

You implied that today's madrassa's are the same as those a 1000 years ago. I disagreed and said they are not since along with religious studies they also taught a plethora of other disciplines including Greek Philosophy. You claimed Greek Philosophy was never taught in Madrassas. I proved you were wrong. The discussion was never about if Greek Philosophy was good or not, against Islam or not, better than Islam or not, if Islam offers more than it or not, or if it taught Muslims how to make good Feta or not. If you don't have enough character to admit that you had no idea what you were talking about, then at least have enough shame to keep your head low and exit stage left instead of presenting further nonsensical statements which have nothing to do with the debate at hand.

You have no idea about Al-Ghazali or his works. You have no idea about the works he refuted. You have no idea the impact he had on Scientific thought in the Muslim world. You have no idea what he says in Hujjat al-Islam or as you put it "the Proof of Islam" since all you did was wiki him after I provided you with his name. You have no idea what the "good part" or the "bad parts" of Greek philosophy are. You are uneducated in the matter to the extent that you keep weighing philosophy against "religions basically". You are a child in a discussion you don't belong, presenting arguments which have nothing to do with the debate through statements you have no idea about just to keep the miserably failing pretense going that you know anything about education or religion except for how you feel about them.


Iranians probably made them.
Turkey did. No probability of Iranians at all.

It's amazing how every statement you make is a reminder why one should go to school.

Guess who's their leader?? Yup...that turban wearing, beard wielding one. :lol:
You mean their President who is a PHD from Glasgow Caledonian University?

Regardless, is a turban wearing, beard wielding madrassa graduate the one who made those UAV's and missiles for Iran?

Civilian casualties....come on hahaha
So what is more Mujahedeen and Jundullah have been killed?? They're all in a better place. Higher body count doesn't mean the other side won. They simply lost because they couldn't digest their body count. :D
So.....civilian casualties don't count? The Afghanis watched helplessly while their women and children were butchered and you are saying that it doesn't count?

Along with the fact that both the Soviets and Americans did what so ever they pleased in and to Afghanistan for decades. They lost because half the world was training, arming, and funding the Afghans who still cannot make a toothpick of their own.

At least they fought the British (pre-1900's), the Soviets (late 20th) and the Muricans (21st). Which superpower has Pakistan defeated in direct combat with all it's military prowess???
Ah "direct combat".....Well, as idiotic comments go, Pakistan has defeated every single super power that Pakistan has had to confront in "direct combat".

Is Kashmir still in India?? Yep...
Another idiotic comment.

Is the US still occupying Afghanistan?

They were the first to push in 48. Then came the Army.

If not for some Kashmiri traitors, they could have taken Srinagar. My ancestral home.
More nonsense. No they didn't. The Kashmiri locals had been fighting for a while before the tribals ever came into the picture. Short while after that they decided that "mal-e-ghanimat" was better than advancing on to Srinagar.

You seem to have read some doctored Army books. :lol:
Ah yes, books are doctored. The nonsense Itachi produces on a whim is gospel. Textbook defense of every ill/under/un-educated man/woman.

They're not the ones I'm talking about.
You don't get to pick and choose. Madrassa graduates are madrassa graduates.

Either way, they're aren't fully defeated. They still do bomb attacks here and there. Reply to me when they're fully defeated.
Yeah, like the brave cockroaches they are. Hiding until they can attack undefended women and children. What mujahids! In all seriousness though, if that's all the solace you and your madrassa grads have left then good for us.


All of the nonsense you have posted aside, Afghanistan is arguably the worst place on the planet to live in. Afghans themselves don't want to live there. They'd rather live in squalor in Pakistani refugee camps than return to their country of madrassa grads. And here you are, in your infinite wisdom, trying to present the centuries long misery and utter destruction of Afghanistan as proof of the greatness of madrassas. Like I said, you have no clue what you are saying.
 
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