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Lockheed Receives Mission Planning Contract for Potential F-16 Sales to India, Pakistan, 21 Other Nations

surya kiran

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Okay

Waisai Gujarat k 56 inch walai k under to kabhi nahi hoga.

Woh UP ki fanta bottle ko try karo. Shaid woh try kar lai :lol:
chalo, tumne agree toh kiya, kisi doosre ke neeche ho sakta hai. i will take this as a win and bow out of this discussion.
 

cloud4000

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Nope, the US knew our militaries better than many within our countries, they know the Indian and Pakistani conventional capabilities, nukes, Airpower and Naval, they keep a sharp eye on everything, and the US for last many years has been lobbied by Indians and also poor Judgements by Pakistani' Military/Political Leadership that keep those F-16's away from Pakistan, but geopolitics change, leadership changes, and mood of countries also change, US saw this new unpredictable/Hostile/Fascists India and its ability to push the region on the brink of war, and it doesn't go well with those in Pentagon/Decision-makers, why you think that American's did nothing when Pakistan used F-16? Why do you think America didn't say a word about F-16's being used against India? why do you think Americans in Pakistan celebrated at PAF bases? If America thinks that India has tilted the power balance way too much in its favor then the US will find a way/excuse to transfer some good stuff to Pakistan, whether Pakistan has fund's or not, for the US a stable/Allied Pakistan is important for their own presence in Afghanistan/region to keep an eye on Rising China.
Yes, geopolitics changes but not as easily or quickly as you think. The entrance of China into the equation has changed everything. It's now China that provides the balance of power for Pakistan, not the US. Accordingly, the US has made its shift entirely to India. Pakistan, in turn, is squarely in China's camp. CPEC is the high point of this partnership. So I'm surprised that you would mention that Pakistan would allow the US to use Afghanistan to spy on China. Especially when Pakistan is eager for the US to exit Afghanistan as well.

This "Hostile/Fascists India" you mention is only the figment of Pakistan. Nothing more. Modi has been in power for a while now and relations between India and the US are closer than ever. Indo-US relations are not affected by domestic politics.

On the points of why the US was quiet about F-16 being used in Balakot and Americans celebrating at PAF bases (whatever that means) are just superficialities and don't indicate anything.

Regardless, you haven't addressed why Pakistan has not received any F-16s, even older models. Even I admit PAF getting a handful of used F-16s won't change the balance of power much, so why is the US dragging its feet on the issue?
 

Vapnope

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Agreed. But herein lies the problem.

Till date, the nuclear pistol arguement has worked beautifully for Pakistan. The escalation matrix has now been moved up. And this has happened in swipes at the edges, not a deep cut.

For e.g, again without getting into whether true or false and effective or not.

a. Cross border land strike.
Here, India claims to have crossed the line of control with a limited force. Again remember I am not getting into the effectiveness or reality of what happened. This messaging of openly admitting was impossible earlier. The PA could now claim, no such thing happened and everything calmed down. Both sides tom tomed their story line. But, here there was a nudge up the escalation matrix.

Most knowledgeable people will admit these small cross border skirmishes keep happening all the time. The difference was in the scale and admission.

b. Air space strike
Here, India claims to have crossed the LoC and struck across the IB. Pakistan responded the next day. Again, whether it hit target, did not hit target, did anybody die is immaterial. The escalation happened by India. The claims were made by India. Claims were made by Pakistan. Here again, there was a nudge up the escalation matrix.

c. 370.
Abrogation of article 370, basically says we don't care now for what anyone thinks or what the UN wants. This was the deep strike according to me, not the above 2. But, because it happened on this side of the LoC, nothing could be done. If the PA had mobilised for war here, it would have been a sign of intent. Or had the PA made aggressive maneouvering, on the ground not diplomatically, things would have meant something.

The above have already happened. Now let us get out of the Kashmir region. Limited armoured thrust by India into the Rajasthan desert area. India occupies barren desert and takes over few villages and stops the push and consolidates. Will this trigger a nuclear response? India pushes across the Shakargarh bulge and stops. Will this elicit a response? The answers according the Indian strategic planners is no.

Again, I say this. There is a change in the mindset of strategic planners in India. And this has nothing to do with BJP/Congress. If you read Pax Indica by Shashi Tharoor this is more evident. While he does not find faults with Indian intervention in the neighborhood, he makes a case for forwarding multi-alignment.

And I have made this argument before in another forum. India policy makers of today are post 1990 people. They have not seen or experienced the pre liberalization era. They are not chained by the non alignment policies of before. The top bureaucrats of today came in through the Punjab, Assam and Kashmir insurgency period. They have seen the might of the Indian forces in crushing these. The mid level bureaucrats have seen the opportunities of globalization and an aggressive policy in fighting for space. Across all spectrum of life in India.

These crop of policy makers are not going to be driven by idealism but hard facts. And herein lies the conundrum. In this calculation, the mad man is no longer Pakistani Army. PA is a calculating sane man, realising its own drawbacks and making calculating moves.


The folly and mistake you make, is to assume we want Pakistan to stop existing. Better the PA deal with the mad mullahs to your west, than our army. Pakistan is our buffer from the nutjobs of the Middle East. More specically the PA.
You have explained well Indian doctrine vis a vis Pakistan and i have told you that what Pakistan is thinking regarding Indian doctrine. There is another thread posted by Panzerkiel regarding nuclear deterence it explains in depth how Pakistan is reading Indian doctrine and preparing for it conventionally and non conventionally. I'd suggest to read that thread. Like always, we can agree to disagree on respective doctrines of India and Pakistan.
 

SQ8

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Yes, geopolitics changes but not as easily or quickly as you think. The entrance of China into the equation has changed everything. It's now China that provides the balance of power for Pakistan, not the US. Accordingly, the US has made its shift entirely to India. Pakistan, in turn, is squarely in China's camp. CPEC is the high point of this partnership. So I'm surprised that you would mention that Pakistan would allow the US to use Afghanistan to spy on China. Especially when Pakistan is eager for the US to exit Afghanistan as well.

This "Hostile/Fascists India" you mention is only the figment of Pakistan. Nothing more. Modi has been in power for a while now and relations between India and the US are closer than ever. Indo-US relations are not affected by domestic politics.

On the points of why the US was quiet about F-16 being used in Balakot and Americans celebrating at PAF bases (whatever that means) are just superficialities and don't indicate anything.

Regardless, you haven't addressed why Pakistan has not received any F-16s, even older models. Even I admit PAF getting a handful of used F-16s won't change the balance of power much, so why is the US dragging its feet on the issue?
Why is that the immediate conclusion?
 

araz

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Nope, the US knew our militaries better than many within our countries, they know the Indian and Pakistani conventional capabilities, nukes, Airpower and Naval, they keep a sharp eye on everything, and the US for last many years has been lobbied by Indians and also poor Judgements by Pakistani' Military/Political Leadership that keep those F-16's away from Pakistan, but geopolitics change, leadership changes, and mood of countries also change, US saw this new unpredictable/Hostile/Fascists India and its ability to push the region on the brink of war, and it doesn't go well with those in Pentagon/Decision-makers, why you think that American's did nothing when Pakistan used F-16? Why do you think America didn't say a word about F-16's being used against India? why do you think Americans in Pakistan celebrated at PAF bases? If America thinks that India has tilted the power balance way too much in its favor then the US will find a way/excuse to transfer some good stuff to Pakistan, whether Pakistan has fund's or not, for the US a stable/Allied Pakistan is important for their own presence in Afghanistan/region to keep an eye on Rising China.
I would present a counter argument to your post. I would say the US did not say anything for 2 reasons. At all times on 27/02 the 16s were within Pak air space and therefore technically on defensive duties. In defence anh armament can be used by the procuring nation. Sevondly the US got the bezt possible present handed to it on a golden platter in the form of 2 Indian platforms going down to the C5. Air warfare is a business to the US defence conglomerate. It does not matter who goes down as long as the US armaments secure a limited victory. This was a huge victory for the C5 so the US was externally quiet but internally chuffed to bits.
A
 

Goritoes

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I would present a counter argument to your post. I would say the US did not say anything for 2 reasons. At all times on 27/02 the 16s were within Pak air space and therefore technically on defensive duties. In defence anh armament can be used by the procuring nation. Sevondly the US got the bezt possible present handed to it on a golden platter in the form of 2 Indian platforms going down to the C5. Air warfare is a business to the US defence conglomerate. It does not matter who goes down as long as the US armaments secure a limited victory. This was a huge victory for the C5 so the US was externally quiet but internally chuffed to bits.
A
I would say both of your points are valid, PAF just handed the US the biggest Marketing Pitch for AIM-9's and F-16's, while remaining within its air space PAF don't let Indians crying their hearts out to Congress about the F-16's being used against them in an aggressive way. One thing strongly believe that US did know what's going on between both India and Pakistan from 26th failed balakot strike to all the way to Abinundons captured, US satellites pretty much have picked up movements along the International border, especially when and if India was serious about Missile strikes, and Pakistan sends the message to India that if they hit 3, we will hit 6.
 

araz

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I would say both of your points are valid, PAF just handed the US the biggest Marketing Pitch for AIM-9's and F-16's, while remaining within its air space PAF don't let Indians crying their hearts out to Congress about the F-16's being used against them in an aggressive way. One thing strongly believe that US did know what's going on between both India and Pakistan from 26th failed balakot strike to all the way to Abinundons captured, US satellites pretty much have picked up movements along the International border, especially when and if India was serious about Missile strikes, and Pakistan sends the message to India that if they hit 3, we will hit 6.
The US may have known and I agree that it knew what was going on. I would not even be surprised if the Dhotis bleeted to the US about their punitive strike and got a tacit approval. The idea(and this remains my view point) was to just lob a couple of missiles into Pak territory and claim a moral victory for the Indian media to run with. With a few trees and a crow or two it would not logically have justified Pakistan to respond as their prior experience with the spineless polity of Pakistan led them to believe people will play the media game and indulge in rhetoric rather than respond. What the US did not expect was Pak response the severity and the extent of it and the IAF ineptness. The rest was just lapped up with due pats on the back for free advertisements.
The consequences of this are varied and multiple. It made the US notice Paklands once again and IK got an invite from the US. The US remains cautious as they cannot afford to annoy the Indians any more. So arms sales MAY come with more SPECIFIC conditions which will not be acceptable to the Paklands. For what it is worth I dont think the US knew the exact plans of PAF till the F16 planes were actually deployed. But obviously they knew and went semi alert due to the risk of escalation.
I think this one factor along with financial constraints on both sides have made the possibility of F16 sales a bit more remote unless the US gets entangled in Afghanistan again. Thos and low interest loans plus maturity of the Chinese equipment has made aJ10 sale more plausible.
A
 

Goritoes

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The US may have known and I agree that it knew what was going on. I would not even be surprised if the Dhotis bleeted to the US about their punitive strike and got a tacit approval.
I see it a bit different than you, I mean it might be possible that Indians would have contacted Americans before the strike to get their ashirvaad, and assurances that they will make sure that Pakistan will not do anything irrational, but I believe that Modi and India under modi has lied so much to its public, created such a thick fog of fake bravado that they actually starting to believe in it, they actually start to think that they can just put any incident in India on Pakistan and launch strikes and get away with it because Pakistan ( as per their Media and Political Leadership ) is just a piece of cake, Modi went to US and get a fancy welcome from our Commander in thief but that was a Political show off, Modi/Indians took it very differently.

India only have to fire a shot, or even throw a rock that lands across the LOC, and their media would've declared that AJK has been captured but then Indian left it on purpose, this is how rotten their public's thinking has turned, but I do agree that even Indians or Americans would not have expected such strike package from Pakistan, they might be thinking that it will just be firing along the LOC, we can spare some BSF to Pakistani snipers, we will declare them shaheed, issue some tough statements rest the Godi media will take care off.

One smart thing Pakistan did that they did not wait for long before retaliating so it doesn't leave any global power to use it influence over Pakistan through Political leadership to halt the incoming response, who knows that PM/COAS receive how many calls from so many embassies around the world, and it would be curious to know how many they actually respond to :D

As for future F-16, it's now even harder for PAF to get F-16's as Indians paraded the piece of American Missile on national television, crying out loud that this is the tool that we get F'd by, I mean how dumb these retards can be? India will now make sure that Pakistan will not receive any New/used F-16's along with any new AAM, cause they know this now that their Russian/Israeli hardware has failed them miserably. But I think that now things have gone too far for Pakistan, they moved on with JF's and most of the weapons and new systems are coming from China which is learning rapidly and implementing them even faster, their Military is advancing in all direction and branches, be it Air-Sea or Land China has not just one but multiple solutions for any problems or threat Pakistan is/will face, and for China its a blessing that Pakistan is putting their untested/New technology to active battlegrounds and giving them their opinions and possible suggestions for improvement.
The last straw or sign from PAF was when they walk away from the 8 F-16's which were offered without financial assistance, If PAF was desperate they would at least try to make funds available but it seems they walk away pretty easily and since then we are hearing about Possible New fighter from East/west, now the western Option is gone only eastern option is left which J-10's which are decent for the region, J-10's even if they didn't turn out to be good Air-Air fighters they can still work as SEAD as their displacement is good enough to carry multiple heavy Medium to long-range bombs. Plus in a possible war with India, because of the Geographics, it will not be just dog fights, but ground assets such as AD's and EW will be involved heavily and we have seen it on Feb 27th. So all in all, if PAF gets more F-16's it would be great, but if not I think it will not change the outcome of future Air conflict with India, as long as Pakistan keeps training as they always do to face an enemy 10x bigger, and improvise which I am sure they are.
 

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