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Korean War June 25, 1950: U.S. beaten by revolutionary war

jhungary

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Lets put it this way, US text books make D day as the decisive battle in Europe. But real history is different. Its Stalingrad that crippled Germans in WWII. US focus on its contributions such as Operation Torch, Casablanca, Tunisian campaign, Italian campaign, D-Day, Western Europe. Battle of Bulge ,etc. But guess what, it does not matter. US will only focus on its contribution. Russia on theirs and Chinese on theirs. Even Indians focus on its contribution even though it didn't exist during WWII. If you want to learn more about Chinese contribution in WWII, you probably can find such a course in upper division Chinese civil war history class for students majoring in Chinese history. You will not find it else where.
This is very correct. People who study History have to relat their studied into THEM

America was involved in the whole of WW2, but American was NOT involved in the Siege of Leningrad and Siegn of Stainlingrad. They cannot or would not recall how effect were those, unless you were in the ground fighting. D-Day is the turning point TO US in our respect of WW2. Does it eman it is the turning point of WW2? NO. But does it matter to general US Citizens? No...

By the way, Battle of Britain and Battle of Atlantic is actually the turning point of WW2 according to many historian, myself included. Without the Battle of Atlantic, Allied (US/Canada) would not been able to ship material to Russia and the Whole russia compaign may be tip over the balance. It's that supply line that kept open allow Russian to keep rolling tanks and planes. Otherwise the outcome of Eastern Front could have been different.
 

jhungary

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US was the superior force with advance technology, largest air cover and naval power during Korea war. Korea situated by the surrounding ocean only N.K border with China. The surround water in Korea allowed U.N naval force to reenforce their front line with fire power and air raid on Chinese army penetration. With no air force or naval force, Chinese army without heavy artillery managed to push U.N force back to the 38 parallel was the major victory in it self. Imagine if China have the air cover and naval power of the U.S, Korea would be unite under N.K government. This is the fact that, China great strategist halted U.S intention of unified Korea and divide Korea into South and North Korea as today.
US/UN are superior in Technology, but MOST DEFINTIELY not superior in Force.

And the Chinese intention is NOT TO HALT the US invasion into the North, but occupation of South as seen in Chinese invasion duriung the 1951 offensive. If the objective is merely push US off, then they would have stopped in 38 parallel. But the move suggested that other agenda was in the Chinese objective. And they failed to do that. Hence a stall.

It's simple as that.
 

Wholegrain

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So, you are changing from



to



Wow, hopping argument, you do not have any point on Humiliating US defeat anymore??

Ok, i will mate you this time just to teach you some history



First of all, show me 1 evidence that US history book say US Alone fighting against Japan in WW2. Give me one example. The version i studied show US was helped by Australia in New Guinea Campaign and the Commonwealth (British, India, Canada) in East Asia campaign and Nationalist China in West Asia (Burma) campaign, i don't know why you never heard of Claire Lee Chennault and his flying tiger, i remember when i was a kid, HE AND THE 1st American Volunteer Group (Flying Tiger) of the Chinese Air Force were my hero.

Second of all How do you define WW2 if you were an American. 1939 when Germany Occupied Poland? Or the japanese Machuria invasion starting 7/7 or 918 incident? Or the japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Declare war to America??

Fact is, AVG was taught even in 6th Grade History, and if you can find ANY Textbook who literally says "America alone win the WW2 in the pacific" I am all ears. Otherwise i can say a lot of stuff too, and blowing hotair, without reference supporting evidence, i count them all BS.



I don't really know where you get your difinition of "Stablize", Chinese dictionary perhaps??

How would you call Stablize when Japan and China keep fighing and gaining ground and losing ground from both size??
So, by calling the forntline is Stablize in 1940, you are denialing the following incursion and battle never happened

Sichuan invasion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Sept 1942 - 1943 - Chinese Victory)
Battle of Zaoyang (Jan 1940 - June 1940 - Chinese Victory)
Battle of Shanggao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( March 1941- April 1941 - Chinese Victory)
Zhejiang-Jiangxi Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (May to September 1942 - Japanese Victory)
Battle of Changsha (1942) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( Dec 1941 - Jan 1942 - Chinese Victory)
Battle of Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Dec 1941 - Japanese Victory)
Battle of South Shanxi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (May 1941 - Japanese Vioctory)
Battle of Yunnan-Burma Road - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (March 1942 - June 1942 Japanese Victory)
Battle of Changde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Nov 1943 - Dec 1943 Japanese Victory)

I can list more if you want, but i think i have enough to prove my point. So you are saying with war warging and land ceding and gaining on both side, Chinese have a "Stable" front to the japanese? Maybe it's logical in China, i don't think it's logical anywhere



Japanese WERE NEVER HALTED in 1940 as you said and a Stablised front NEVER materialize.

Our history book do cover Bataan Death march and the fall of Manlia. So, what's your point??



Dude, do you know what you are talkinga 'bout??
You are saying that American History book should record any and EVERY individual battle and study them in our school. History book record history by their "Historial Significant Value" Even with a war we are currently fighting, history are recording according to Value, not every battle, if we do record EVERY SINGLE DETAIL in our history book, then your life is probably ended BEFORE you can go thru Middle Ages History.

What that historial significant do with differnt group of people also a key point of getting it recorded too. I mean Battle of Fallujah is important and significant to me, does that mean you or the average jack and jill need to hear about how my squad and my company is ambushed by the insurgent??

The Ili Rebellion (三區革命) is important to Chinese and Russian, but is it that important to American we have to learn them? NO Because if we do, why don't we stop there, the Russo-swedish war is very important to Russian and Swedish too, i think the American History book should also a detail account of the Russo-Swedish war and the thirty years war which also important because of the Religious value. It's the birth of Protestant which is one of the majority religion in the US, we should also learn that then LMFAO.

By the way, some Historian Suggest Ili Rebellion were NOT PART of WW2 as
A.) The belligent is China and USSR, where USSR is NEUTRAL in the WW2 in pacific front.
B.) The conflict ended with Communist China took over Xijiang, which should be considered part of Civil war of China, NOT WW2

all in all, the stuff that you said did not mention in history book simply because they are NOT significant enough for General American to learn them. If you are a student of Sino-Russia Relation in the United States, you will learn them, i hardly think those stuff you need to know in grade school or still in matriculation.

That is different then hiding the fact that SARS is rampant in China and hiding the fact that what really happen in Tianenmen Square. Those stuff are IMPORTANT and significant for Chinese, yet you can't learn them in Chinese History book. Or an Altered version have been supplied

So, as far as i concern, you are full of shxt, sir
China's Bitter Victory: The War With Japan, 1937-1945 - Google Books

The War With Japan, 1937-1945 James Chieh Hsiung, Steven I. Levine. China attacked Hsinchu Airfield in Taiwan, marking ... mindset of Chinese leaders. Since 1940, the Sino- Japanese front had essentially stabilized. Chiang Kai-shek was ...
Modern China: a guide to a century of change - Graham Hutchings - Google Books

But 'Free China', though the subject of sympathy in the West, essentially fought alone. defeat and demoralization By 1940 the front line, though not static, had stabilized, and the war became one of attrition. Demoralization set in, especially in ....
China at War - Google Books

Also by 1940, the situation had stabilized, and a third, somewhat quieter, phase began. Although few major battles occurred, there were regular skirmishes in the three-sided conflict that had emerged after 1937.
The first source mentioned that the front had been stabilized since 1940 and then it started talking about Operation Ichi-Go which was the only operation in which Japan gained significant amounts of (strategically useless) land after 1940.

Operation Ichi-go was launched months after the Ili Rebellion, in which 100,000 Chinese soldiers were fighting the Red Army. More soldiers were tied up under Ma Bufang when he was ordered to keep an eye on the Tibetans.

The idea that the Ili Rebellion has nothing to do with the Sino Japanese War is a massive joke, considering the massive amounts of war material and soldiers diverted from fighting Japan to Xinjiang in order to fight the Red Army.
 

Juice

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U.S.A. was NEVER defeated in any war. Korean War was a stalemate.

:usflag:
Umh.....we kept it across 1,000's of miles of ocean bordering China....and near enough the USSR. And we are there til this day. Stalemate my a@@. Remember....the commies tried to take it....epic fail.
 

faithfulguy

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This is very correct. People who study History have to relat their studied into THEM

America was involved in the whole of WW2, but American was NOT involved in the Siege of Leningrad and Siegn of Stainlingrad. They cannot or would not recall how effect were those, unless you were in the ground fighting. D-Day is the turning point TO US in our respect of WW2. Does it eman it is the turning point of WW2? NO. But does it matter to general US Citizens? No...

By the way, Battle of Britain and Battle of Atlantic is actually the turning point of WW2 according to many historian, myself included. Without the Battle of Atlantic, Allied (US/Canada) would not been able to ship material to Russia and the Whole russia compaign may be tip over the balance. It's that supply line that kept open allow Russian to keep rolling tanks and planes. Otherwise the outcome of Eastern Front could have been different.
Battle of Britain was important. However, we do not have conclusive record that without Allie supplies, Russia would not be able to produce the T-34s and LA-5s. So even though ally's supply to Russia is important, its not an actual battle that turn the tie.

I personally believe that the turning point of war is at Stalingrad as this is where Germany deployed the majority of its fighting power. After this battle, Germany was in defense for the remainder of the war, and the game was over.
 

jhungary

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The first source mentioned that the front had been stabilized since 1940 and then it started talking about Operation Ichi-Go which was the only operation in which Japan gained significant amounts of (strategically useless) land after 1940.
Lol, dude, when you call Frontline "Stabilised" that mean the Frontline is "Contained" and do not have change of sovereignty or control over land. That will be stabilised.

To call the frontline "stabilised" and then you tell me there are small and Insignificant changes of sovereignty. Oh well, then I can say I am more handsome than Ryan Gosling if I have Ryan Reyonds eyes, Canning tatum nose and Richard Gear Mouth.


Operation Ichi-go was launched months after the Ili Rebellion, in which 100,000 Chinese soldiers were fighting the Red Army. More soldiers were tied up under Ma Bufang when he was ordered to keep an eye on the Tibetans.
Again, what this piece of History is THAT IMPORTANT enough for American to know, how the Chinese Fight the Russian? If they are that important and American have to know about this then I can say this.

Do you know Pepperheim lost 5,000 men when they attack the Swedish protestant and lost their Holy Roman Catholic Church fight to the Protestant?? Why it is not in the history book in the US??

Dude, you are talking about History in the United States, why is it so important for our average Jack and Jill 5th Grader to learn how Chinese Died on the hand of Russia or vice versa?? If they do need to know, I think they should learn my Fallujah Story first.

It may be important for you as you are a Chinese, it is NOT IMPORTANT for average American kids. If you are a college kid and study Sino-Russo relationship in your bachelorate in History, and they don't cover that, then let me know, otherwise I am not interested in every tiny history in random world.

The idea that the Ili Rebellion has nothing to do with the Sino Japanese War is a massive joke, considering the massive amounts of war material and soldiers diverted from fighting Japan to Xinjiang in order to fight the Red Army.
It will be STUPID to count Ili Rebellion into WW2 as :

A.) if we have to count Ili Rebellion as part of WW2, then the WW2 did not ended on September 1 1945 where the cease fire agreement was signed, but October 12, 1949 which is the date when the Chinese CCP army march into Xinjiang and quell the Ili Rebellion for good.. Now ask anyone, in this forum and outside, what date do they think the WW2 ended??

B.) Russia is not a belligerent in that conflict at that time, same as Spanish Civil war, even Nazi Germany was in the side of fighting with Nationalist in 1939, can we count Spanish Civil war as part of WW2??

What you said is what you think, I don't want to disrespect your nationalistic emotion but things you said in the World scale are simply, WRONG. What you think is important to you, but NOT to general US Students.
 

jhungary

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Battle of Britain was important. However, we do not have conclusive record that without Allie supplies, Russia would not be able to produce the T-34s and LA-5s. So even though ally's supply to Russia is important, its not an actual battle that turn the tie.

I personally believe that the turning point of war is at Stalingrad as this is where Germany deployed the majority of its fighting power. After this battle, Germany was in defense for the remainder of the war, and the game was over.
Well, I do know some people think Russia campaign (not just Stalingrad) is the turning point of the WW2, I am not going to argue about that as we would have no idea what would happen whether if US/UK lost Battle of the Atlantic or Germany win the Eastern front. Your guess is as good as mine, I am just saying I believe the battle of the Atlantic is the turning point. That's all, you don't have to believe me or agree with me, this is what I think and you probably cannot change it.
 

Wholegrain

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Lol, dude, when you call Frontline "Stabilised" that mean the Frontline is "Contained" and do not have change of sovereignty or control over land. That will be stabilised.

To call the frontline "stabilised" and then you tell me there are small and Insignificant changes of sovereignty. Oh well, then I can say I am more handsome than Ryan Gosling if I have Ryan Reyonds eyes, Canning tatum nose and Richard Gear Mouth.




Again, what this piece of History is THAT IMPORTANT enough for American to know, how the Chinese Fight the Russian? If they are that important and American have to know about this then I can say this.

Do you know Pepperheim lost 5,000 men when they attack the Swedish protestant and lost their Holy Roman Catholic Church fight to the Protestant?? Why it is not in the history book in the US??

Dude, you are talking about History in the United States, why is it so important for our average Jack and Jill 5th Grader to learn how Chinese Died on the hand of Russia or vice versa?? If they do need to know, I think they should learn my Fallujah Story first.

It may be important for you as you are a Chinese, it is NOT IMPORTANT for average American kids. If you are a college kid and study Sino-Russo relationship in your bachelorate in History, and they don't cover that, then let me know, otherwise I am not interested in every tiny history in random world.



It will be STUPID to count Ili Rebellion into WW2 as :

A.) if we have to count Ili Rebellion as part of WW2, then the WW2 did not ended on September 1 1945 where the cease fire agreement was signed, but October 12, 1949 which is the date when the Chinese CCP army march into Xinjiang and quell the Ili Rebellion for good.. Now ask anyone, in this forum and outside, what date do they think the WW2 ended??

B.) Russia is not a belligerent in that conflict at that time, same as Spanish Civil war, even Nazi Germany was in the side of fighting with Nationalist in 1939, can we count Spanish Civil war as part of WW2??

What you said is what you think, I don't want to disrespect your nationalistic emotion but things you said in the World scale are simply, WRONG. What you think is important to you, but NOT to general US Students.
You are using ad hominem and straw man attacks. I clearly said that American history books made outright lies like claiming China was not fighting Japan and keeping soldiers and war material for resuming the Civil War later while in reality those soldiers were taking back Xinjiang from the Soviets and fighting the Red Army.
 

Zero_wing

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You are using ad hominem and straw man attacks. I clearly said that American history books made outright lies like claiming China was not fighting Japan and keeping soldiers and war material for resuming the Civil War later while in reality those soldiers were taking back Xinjiang from the Soviets and fighting the Red Army.
So why did you need help fighting Japanese then? you had twice her number and yet you lose almost every front? you people were well armed and experience and yet the Filipino-American defenders manage to hold off the Japanese more than the yours and yet they went and done it so that the allies can prepare for a counter offensive
 

ChinaToday

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Umh.....we kept it across 1,000's of miles of ocean bordering China....and near enough the USSR. And we are there til this day. Stalemate my a@@. Remember....the commies tried to take it....epic fail.
My advice to you is watch that video retreat from hell again
 

Wholegrain

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So why did you need help fighting Japanese then? you had twice her number and yet you lose almost every front? you people were well armed and experience and yet the Filipino-American defenders manage to hold off the Japanese more than the yours and yet they went and done it so that the allies can prepare for a counter offensive
The entire Philipinnes was overrun in six months.

If China lost almost every front, the entire China would have been conquered. The Japanese had a massive collaborator army led by Wang Jingwei and Demchugdongrub. The Soviet Union also invaded Xinjiang in 1937 and stationed an entire army in Kumul.

The Japanese controlled less than 25% of the entire China in 1940 and only gained significant amounts of (strategically useless) land in Operation Ichi-go. Their attempt to invade northwest China failed and General Fu Zuoyi and the Muslim Ma warlords defeated their invasion.

China used over 100,000 soldiers in wrest Xinjiang back from the Soviet Union and then to fight the Soviets in the Ili Rebellion. China fought a two front war in WW2.
 

gambit

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It will be STUPID to count Ili Rebellion into WW2 as :

A.) if we have to count Ili Rebellion as part of WW2, then the WW2 did not ended on September 1 1945 where the cease fire agreement was signed, but October 12, 1949 which is the date when the Chinese CCP army march into Xinjiang and quell the Ili Rebellion for good.. Now ask anyone, in this forum and outside, what date do they think the WW2 ended??
It is an alternate universe conjured up by the Party via liberal interpretations of quantum physics.
 

gambit

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What would you call the vietnam war then?
Not a defeat. At least not a military one, any way.

You should understand that in a war, there are two equally important factors: political goals and military objectives.

In the Vietnam War, what were the political goals for each side?

For North Viet Nam, it was unification under communist rule. For South Viet Nam, it was partition.

As long as these irreconcilable political goals exists, their military objectives must support them. For either side, a hill or valley or town would have the same importance but their achievement would be for different political goals.

Militarily speaking, the SVN/US alliance dominated the battlefields, ground and air. In the air, the US attacked North Viet Nam at will and whatever defenses NVN brought to bear, they were not enough to deter those air attacks. But politically speaking, NVN will be compelled to continue fighting, violate any treaty, and resort to any means. For SVN, once ground military objectives reached the 17th parallel, the alliance was compelled to stop. Remember, the 17th was the partition. As long as this irreconcilable difference exists, one side will be weary of the war simply because it was obeying a moral directive that the other side was not equally compelled to do so.

Here is the catch that you do not know, the Chinese does not want you to know, and that the Vietnamese does not want you to know: When the US decided to the program of 'Vietnamization' of the war, meaning letting SVN take the lead while the US provides only air and materiel support, SVN actually stood the grounds and even defeated the NVA in several major ground battles. With the US ground forces out of the war, SVN could have abandoned any treaty and crossed the 17th and invaded North Viet Nam.

There must be successful military objectives in order for the politicians to present the other side with credible evidences of impending defeat. Even Hitler does not want to spend his forces needlessly, so if he can present to the Allies that this city has fallen, that valley was taken, that dessert came under German control, etc...etc...Hitler can use them to convince the Allies that any further efforts would be futile.

But when the SVN/US alliance continually hamstrung themselves at the 17th parallel despite continuing military successes, sooner or later American public support will stop. And they did.
 

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