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Kissinger tells Biden to go easy on China

striver44

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Iraq was a high tech enemy? In what world?
The Iraqi IADS was a composite system which integrated European and Soviet search and acquisition radars, and a range of Soviet and European SAM and AAA systems, all tied together with a French built Kari C3 (Command/Control/Communications) network. While smaller than the now defunct Soviet system in central Europe (Western TVD), the system had a respectable capability and comparable if not higher density of SAM and AAA systems, with considerable redundancy in communications links and hardened C3 facilities.

Organisationally the IADS was split into three principal elements, a national fixed site strategic system using fighters and SA-2 and SA-3 systems covering key airfields and strategic air defence sites, operated by the Iraqi air force. This system was supplemented by Republican Guard operated SAM and AAA systems covering key nuclear, biological and chemical warfare facilities. Finally, the Iraqi army had its own mobile radar, SAM and AAA systems tasked with protecting both fixed sites and units in the field.

Geographically the national IADS was split into several large zones, in each of which were located central local C3 facilities, one or more large hardened airbases and a network of communications links to fixed radar and SAM sites. Control of the whole network was centred in hardened facilities in the vicinity of Baghdad. While microwave links were used extensively, these were backed up by landlines.

The structure of the system reflected the Soviet Air Defence Force (PVO) and Army Air Defence (PVO-SV) models respectively. The strategic air defences employed large GCI/EW (Ground Controlled Intercept/Early Warning) radars such as the Soviet P-35M and P-37 Bar Lock, which were used for wide area surveillance and early warning, these large MTI (Moving Target Indicator - ie low PRF) E/F (2.6-3 GHz) band systems being situated at key geographical locations to cover principal air bases and population centres.

Bar Lock systems employ a pair of trailer mounted truncated paraboloid reflectors, and have a range of the order of 120 NM, the whole antenna/trailer assembly rotating at 12 rpm for 360 degree scan with six stacked beams for approximate height finding. Where low level coverage is required, they are typically supplemented by a Side Net E-band nodding height finding radar.

The air force operated GCI/EW system formed the top tier of the IADS, supporting fighters with GCI vectors, but also datalinking early warning information down to individual SAM and AAA batteries.

These were in turn directly supported by a range of early warning and acquisition radars, mobile and relocatable, such as the Flat Face, Squat Eye and Spoon Rest. These acquisition radars played a key role in the IADS, as they provided precise tracking information to SAM systems. They would also, under proper operating conditions, remain off the air until a target was to be engaged, at which time they would light up, acquire and track the target and feed the target's parameters to the fire control radars associated with the SAM and AAA systems in use.

The P-15 Flat Face is a low PRF MTI radar which uses a pair of elliptical paraboloid antennas on a short mast above a trailer, operating in the B/C (UHF) band the radar is generally credited with respectable look down performance into clutter and good ECCM performance. As several late model units were captured by the Allies during the eighties, the Flat Face was wholly compromised. Reports of testing by the French suggested the radar had remarkably good performance for its class of system, and good ECCM.

The P-15 Flat Face was originally used by the Soviets to support the SA-3 Goa, but since they were reluctant to export their mobile Long Track acquisition radars to non-Warpac nations, the P-15 was largely substituted. The Flat Face was the principal Soviet mobile battlefield surveillance/acquisition radar in use in Iraq and is associated with grouped area defence batteries of SA-3, SA-6 and point defence batteries of SA-8, Roland, ZSU-23-4P, SA-9 and SA-13. Where low altitude coverage was required, the P-15M Squat Eye was used. The Squat Eye is a direct derivative of the P-15, using essentially the same hardware but with only a single antenna mounted at the top of a 100 ft mast.

A typical arrangement was to colocate a Flat Face and Squat Eye at a single site, both vans buried in revetments and covered with nets. The radar site would then provide high altitude coverage to the maximum range of the systems, and low level coverage limited by the height of the P-15M mast. Most acquisition radars were situated close to the targets covered by the area defence and point defence SAM systems which they were designated to support, and were often supplemented by height finding radars such as the Thin Skin, a truck or trailer mounted H-band nodding elliptical paraboloid system.
 

tower9

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Iraq was a starving, crumbling state where half the population hated saddam. It was a cake walk. You seriously think the likes of saddam’s Iraq can be compared to China or Russia?
 

striver44

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Iraq was a starving, crumbling state where half the population hated saddam. It was a cake walk. You seriously think the likes of saddam’s Iraq can be compared to China or Russia?
well it's still a more impressive combat record than some (failed) China's invasion of Vietnam and Russian invasion of some mountain dude in Chechnya.
 

tower9

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well it's still a more impressive combat record than some (failed) China's invasion of Vietnam and Russian invasion of some mountain dude in Chechnya.
You think Saddam's Iraq was a more formidable enemy than Vietnam or Chechnya? What a joke. Vietnamese are East Asians in spirit, they fight to the last man and are highly nationalistic. They would've destroyed Saddam's Iraq. As far as Chechnya, they were nationalistic battle hardened fighters in a mountain terrain.

Saddam's Iraq was already starved by over 13 years of sanctions with NATO in control of its airspace and its population seething with revolt from the majority Shi'ite and Kurdish populations who outnumbered the Sunni power base. What a joke.
 

striver44

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You think Saddam's Iraq was a more formidable enemy than Vietnam or Chechnya? What a joke. Vietnamese are East Asians in spirit, they fight to the last man and are highly nationalistic. They would've destroyed Saddam's Iraq. As far as Chechnya, they were nationalistic battle hardened fighters in a mountain terrain.
yeah East Asian spirit, aight

Saddam's Iraq was already starved by over 13 years of sanctions with NATO in control of its airspace and its population seething with revolt from the majority Shi'ite and Kurdish populations who outnumbered the Sunni power base. What a joke.
I'm talking about the 1991 Gulf war, where Iraq emerges as the world no.4 largest Army

the above you mention happens after Desert Storm '91.
 

tower9

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yeah East Asian spirit, aight


I'm talking about the 1991 Gulf war, where Iraq emerges as the world no.4 largest Army

the above you mention happens after Desert Storm '91.
Iraq is a flat terrain and that war did not involve an occupation of Iraq, just pushing Saddam's troops out of Kuwait and containment, which was an easy task, especially with the might of the entire Western world against one rogue actor.

And yes, absolutely the Vietnamese would've crushed Saddam. And what about the East Asian spirit? Confucianism leads to cultures who are more willing to sacrifice, to plan, to take pain in order to achieve the final victory. This is why East Asian countries have risen so fast.
 
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yeah East Asian spirit, aight


I'm talking about the 1991 Gulf war, where Iraq emerges as the world no.4 largest Army

the above you mention happens after Desert Storm '91.
Without any modern weapons 60s era SAMs and fighter jets good very good, if they will fight China or Russia they will sustain heavy damage in all fields (land/Navy/Airforce)
 

striver44

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Iraq is a flat terrain and that war did not involve an occupation of Iraq, just pushing Saddam's troops out of Kuwait and containment, which was an easy task, especially with the might of the entire Western world against one rogue actor.
still my point stands, Iraq is still a relatively high tech enemy. in 1991.
Without any modern weapons 60s era SAMs and fighter jets good very good, if they will fight China or Russia they will sustain heavy damage in all fields (land/Navy/Airforce)
Iraq uses a quite sophisticated armaments for the 90s.
maybe if they had F-16s, the invasion of Iraq will never happen
 

tower9

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still my point stands, Iraq is still a relatively high tech enemy. in 1991.

Iraq uses a quite sophisticated armaments for the 90s.
maybe if they had F-16s, the invasion of Iraq will never happen
Iraq was high tech for its region. It was still a weak enemy compared to the US. Also, like I said before, the aims of that operation was very clear. Pushing his forces out of Kuwait and containment of Iraq, those were easily achievable goals. It might've been different if the goal was occupation of Iraq.
 

striver44

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Iraq was high tech for its region. It was still a weak enemy compared to the US. Also, like I said before, the aims of that operation was very clear. Pushing his forces out of Kuwait and containment of Iraq, those were easily achievable goals. It might've been different if the goal was occupation of Iraq.
still a high tech enemy, your countryman are making a case where the US only fights (and lose) against backwards country and people, some hint that US can't win against high tech China while it struggles against low tech Taliban.
The fact is the US excels at high end warfare, it's easier for the US to crush PLA than win a war with the Taliban.
 

tower9

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still a high tech enemy, your countryman are making a case where the US only fights (and lose) against backwards country and people, some hint that US can't win against high tech China while it struggles against low tech Taliban.
The fact is the US excels at high end warfare, it's easier for the US to crush PLA than win a war with the Taliban.
The US military is more powerful than China overall but China is more powerful than the US regionally. Either way, I think it depends on the scenario in terms of whether China would prevail over the US.
 

striver44

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The US military is more powerful than China overall but China is more powerful than the US regionally. Either way, I think it depends on the scenario in terms of whether China would prevail over the US.
yes, when it comes to numbers overmatch.
but do you really think the US will limit themselves in the Asia Pacific when they could bring the war with China from across their base all over the world???
 

tower9

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yes, when it comes to numbers overmatch.
but do you really think the US will limit themselves in the Asia Pacific when they could bring the war with China from across their base all over the world???
Regionally, China would be able to dominate the first island chain but beyond that, it still lacks the naval power to take on the US.
 

striver44

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Regionally, China would be able to dominate the first island chain but beyond that, it still lacks the naval power to take on the US.
then what happens after they dominate the first island chain???
you know where this leads to??
 

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