What's new

JF-17B Updates, News & Discussion

Armchair

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 4, 2014
3,322
8
5,371
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Turkey
The problem with trying to integrate Gripen EW into the JF-17 is integration in the wider scheme of things. We have seen this with the Indian MKI - trying to hack subsystems from the East and the West and ending up with EW that jams its own systems.

Modern EW makes it even more difficult to do this as the systems need to constantly talk to each other. Ultimately, the most powerful EW system in an aircraft has already become the radar itself.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thoughts on a Growler JF-17

A large base below the vertical tail of the JF-17, similar to the F-16 version offered to India could house major EW. So could the wing tips. MERs could even allow 4x BVR and 2x WVR if the need arises.

A large conformal fuel tank could sold the problem of taking out two fuel tanks. To compensate for the added weight at the back, the forward fuselage could be lengthened for even greater fuel and electronics, bit like what the French did with the Mirage V.

Alternatively to solve the CoG issues, you could mount a heavy pod on the forward hardpoint. You could also remove the gun and create a large conformal EW pod.

For solving radiation problems you could line the cockpit with lead. One thing that some modern aircraft do is imbue gold dust on the cockpit glass to keep radar waves from entering the cockpit. Perhaps it could be possible to imbue lead into the cockpit glass in the same way.

Lead is only a problem for pilot health if they inhale it or consume it in some way. Not otherwise.
 

Irfan Baloch

SENIOR MODERATOR
Apr 12, 2009
18,964
185
43,272
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Well the wish of most posters wanting jft B in EW role seems to be coming true. I suspect if the role and performance is satisfactory then you will have a couple of planes in each squadron.
A
I dont know why there has been a strict or almost annoyed rebuttal of such role for JF 17Bs by the PAC or PAF, (reference , some interviews by former PAF command involved in the project).

just like the leadership rubbished the idea of having a 2 seater version of the Jet with a single minded insistence that the simulator was enough for the pilot that had flown other jets in the past. but I think the exports only started once the JF17B came in the scene,

despite a success story I think there are some old school inflated egos and suborn mentality at play in this project just like PAF runs away from the mention of twin engines like blasphemy.
 

MastanKhan

PDF VETERAN
Dec 26, 2005
19,326
160
53,022
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
I dont know why there has been a strict or almost annoyed rebuttal of such role for JF 17Bs by the PAC or PAF, (reference , some interviews by former PAF command involved in the project).

just like the leadership rubbished the idea of having a 2 seater version of the Jet with a single minded insistence that the simulator was enough for the pilot that had flown other jets in the past. but I think the exports only started once the JF17B came in the scene,

despite a success story I think there are some old school inflated egos and suborn mentality at play in this project just like PAF runs away from the mention of twin engines like blasphemy.

Hi,

That was extreme ignorance---.
 

The Raven

FULL MEMBER
Mar 31, 2020
275
2
625
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
I dont know why there has been a strict or almost annoyed rebuttal of such role for JF 17Bs by the PAC or PAF, (reference , some interviews by former PAF command involved in the project).

just like the leadership rubbished the idea of having a 2 seater version of the Jet with a single minded insistence that the simulator was enough for the pilot that had flown other jets in the past. but I think the exports only started once the JF17B came in the scene,

despite a success story I think there are some old school inflated egos and suborn mentality at play in this project just like PAF runs away from the mention of twin engines like blasphemy.

That's not entirely true. The PAF was correct in its approach of using simulators for training its JF-17 pilots, and as the results are evident enough, PAF pilots have been more than capable of being certified on the type using simulators instead of a twin seat model. Long gone are the days where you need a twin seat trainer version for type conversion, as demonstrated by most modern fighter jets, e.g. F-35, F-22, Su-57, J-20. Even 4.5G types such as the Typhoon and Rafale didn't need a twin seat version for type conversion, but rather to provide tactical flexibility, especially in strike missions. The development of the twin seat JF-17 was primarily led by interest from potential export customers, and the PAF saw it as an opportunity to add a flexible tactical platform for strike or special mission, e.g. EW support.
 

Danish Moazzam

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Dec 26, 2015
47
0
67
Country
Pakistan
Location
Nigeria
Also I would like to add that it is easy to comment in hindsight, but if we go back there was no way PAF could have taken up on going through two dissimilar planes. 02 seater would have overburdened the project that was already facing a tough time from engine to avionics, it would have altered the focus as well. PAF had a choice to make and they did that, you have to make compromises when you are in a tight spot and PAF was in a very very tight spot.

With the success of Block-01 and confidence in supply lines PAF ventured into 02 seater after block-02. It was coming off on the confidence and experience of having built a Jet and now it was just adding and tweaking it for twin seating
 

Irfan Baloch

SENIOR MODERATOR
Apr 12, 2009
18,964
185
43,272
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
That's not entirely true. The PAF was correct in its approach of using simulators for training its JF-17 pilots, and as the results are evident enough, PAF pilots have been more than capable of being certified on the type using simulators instead of a twin seat model. Long gone are the days where you need a twin seat trainer version for type conversion, as demonstrated by most modern fighter jets, e.g. F-35, F-22, Su-57, J-20. Even 4.5G types such as the Typhoon and Rafale didn't need a twin seat version for type conversion, but rather to provide tactical flexibility, especially in strike missions. The development of the twin seat JF-17 was primarily led by interest from potential export customers, and the PAF saw it as an opportunity to add a flexible tactical platform for strike or special mission, e.g. EW support.
what you missed out in my post is that it was with the export point of view in my previous posts we been talking about why the foreign air forces didn't share the confidence (insistence) on relying on simulator to learn a new jet. this is why nothing happened until the JF17Bs came in the scene.
 

Armchair

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 4, 2014
3,322
8
5,371
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Turkey
what you missed out in my post is that it was with the export point of view in my previous posts we been talking about why the foreign air forces didn't share the confidence (insistence) on relying on simulator to learn a new jet. this is why nothing happened until the JF17Bs came in the scene.
Thanks for making an important point. Between, there was one poster who was saying the same thing all throughout, long before PAF rectified this mistake - shout out to @MastanKhan
 

The Eagle

SENIOR MODERATOR
Oct 15, 2015
19,523
154
35,226
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
just like the leadership rubbished the idea of having a 2 seater version of the Jet with a single minded insistence that the simulator was enough for the pilot that had flown other jets in the past. but I think the exports only started once the JF17B came in the scene,
We will deny the idea or working in place as such and then there will be the happening of same idea in real time. I mean, why to give everything to the other side before time or prior to surprise. I will rather choose to deny so that the enemy may remain in ease or even over confident.
 

Deino

INT'L MOD
Nov 9, 2014
9,354
14
14,604
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
Hi,

Thank you for the recognition.

But most members don't realize that I recommended 3 other items---JH7A's---Type 054' and Submarines about and around 8-10 years ago---the 2 seater JF17 about 15 years ago.

Even it is late---4 Type 054's are in one stage of construction or completion at this time---the first sub is supposed to be launched in 2 years---the 2 seater JF17 has already flown---.

I would like to know---if any Think Tank member here on this forum on any other pakistan forum fought harder than me with a total commitment for the cause---.

Majority TT members mods current and past on this forum did not have the gumption to make any claims other than Pakistan does not have funds---and yet we have the first Type 054 and around a dozen 2 seater JF17's and subs coming soon.

As is being true pakistanis---none of them have acknowledged that and neither has anyone given an apology for their rude and obnoxious comments.

Even the @WebMaster and moderators of this forum allowed a foreigner to insult and humiliate me---shame on them.

Oh please, not again the frustrated grumpy old man!

Point is, most members - including "Even the @WebMaster and moderators of this forum" and myself - acknowledge this. What most of your critics however also must acknowledged is the fact that you not only recommended and proposed these items, none of us rebutted but that you also proposed several others, which are in our opinion and by our understanding are impossible or at least highly unlikely.

That alone too wouldn't be a problem since a forum is made as a place to share different, even contradicting opinions, if you wouldn't rate any of our refusals as some sort of personnel insult, an offence against Pakistan or whatever. Even more you were not only recommending such realistic items, which indeed need to be respected but you were supporting several most stupid claims brought forward by kids, fan-boys and airmchairs - I still wait for an explanation, which Italian engine the JF-17 Block 03 might use or how Pakistan wants to get JH-7Bs, Type 055 DDGs and J-20s :omghaha: - only to react again in wild-boar-modus if anyone seriously questions such ideas. Sometimes I think you do this only to provoke and later pay this lame "moderators of this forum allowed a foreigner to insult and humiliate me"-meme!

As such I respect and acknowledge the points above but in the same way I fully turn down your proposal and claims which I rate as impossible or even ridiculous, since you are not the god-father of all knowing on PAF.

Kind regards and respect where respect is justified, but only when it is justified.
 

The Raven

FULL MEMBER
Mar 31, 2020
275
2
625
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
Hi,

Thank you for the recognition.

But most members don't realize that I recommended 3 other items---JH7A's---Type 054' and Submarines about and around 8-10 years ago---the 2 seater JF17 about 15 years ago.

Even it is late---4 Type 054's are in one stage of construction or completion at this time---the first sub is supposed to be launched in 2 years---the 2 seater JF17 has already flown---.

I would like to know---if any Think Tank member here on this forum on any other pakistan forum fought harder than me with a total commitment for the cause---.

Majority TT members mods current and past on this forum did not have the gumption to make any claims other than Pakistan does not have funds---and yet we have the first Type 054 and around a dozen 2 seater JF17's and subs coming soon.

As is being true pakistanis---none of them have acknowledged that and neither has anyone given an apology for their rude and obnoxious comments.

Even the @WebMaster and moderators of this forum allowed a foreigner to insult and humiliate me---shame on them.

You make it sound like this is a competition or that you've done a huge great service to the Pakistani nation and deserve a medal. Even a defective clock is correct twice a day. In your hubris, are you really delusional to believe that you were the only one making such claims? We were having this discussion back in the late 90s on other forums. And what about the 99% of your other completely inane comments and claims? The folks at GHQ are not sitting around their PC monitors reading forums like this and saying to themselves "Gentlemen, we were so wrong, after all this time Mr MastanKhan on defence.pk was right all along....shame on us, shame on us".
 

araz

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Jun 14, 2006
7,821
64
12,206
I dont know why there has been a strict or almost annoyed rebuttal of such role for JF 17Bs by the PAC or PAF, (reference , some interviews by former PAF command involved in the project).

just like the leadership rubbished the idea of having a 2 seater version of the Jet with a single minded insistence that the simulator was enough for the pilot that had flown other jets in the past. but I think the exports only started once the JF17B came in the scene,

despite a success story I think there are some old school inflated egos and suborn mentality at play in this project just like PAF runs away from the mention of twin engines like blasphemy.
I think it has been a combination of the restraint induced by lack of funding, the urgency of replacement, and a lack of clear need from the PAF's perspective. However, they did not think it out from a buyers perspective and this was an issue.
Now they have got the system in hand they are trying to expand its role. So I at least am ambivalent to attribute a cause to this alleged missed opportunity. We are all at a distinct advantage at the moment in knowing what the PAF and CATIC's perspective was so a sound analysis cannot be made. 10 years down the line when one knows the real reasons behind not inducting the B variant will we be able to reason out what actually happened.
Incidentally do F22 and35 have a dual seat version????? By no means am I comparing the two with JFT but it might help to see the emerging trends the world over.

A
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom