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JF-17

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by EagleEyes, Nov 24, 2005.

  1. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Chengdu Aircraft Company (CAC) introduced the re-upgraded No.4 FC1/JF17 prototype at 2005 Beijing Aviation Exhibition. This is the second time that No.4 FC1/JF17 underwent upgrading within one year. Kanwa’s analysts believe that the root cause for CAC to further upgrade FC1 is that the US has been promoting F16C/D to Pakistan due to political considerations, and as a result FC1/JF17 is under immense pressure. Kanwa’s report from Pakistan says that Pakistan has principally decided to import 55 F16C/D Block 50/52. The US is attempting to squeeze the position of the Chinese products in the Pakistani combat aircraft market by way of providing “military aid” to and entering arms deals with Pakistan. A source from Pakistani military claims that the US has confirmed to give Pakistan a total military aid US$1.5 billion within 5 years starting in 2005. Meanwhile, once Pakistan decides to purchase F16, the US will increase the scale of military aid. In 2003, the US reimbursed Pakistan US$ 350 million, the money that Pakistan paid to purchase the US-made F16 Fighters 15 years ago but frozen by them due to Pakistan’s nuclear bomb test.

    During the interview in Pakistan, Kanwa discovered that there were heated disputes within the Pakistani Air Force on whether to choose JF17 or F16C/D as the future mainstay fighter. There were controversies at most levels. Out of the need to protect domestic aviation industry, Pakistan will eventually procure JF17, and there is no doubt about this. But the core of the current disputes is on the quantity of the procurement. Majority of the Pakistani military officers are inclined to think that after acquiring new F16 fighters, the planned procurement of 150 JF17 fighters would inevitably be readjusted. As a consequence, the total output of JF17 in Pakistan will have to be much lower, which will push the cost and unit price of the fighter much higher. Such a vicious circle is what Pakistan does not want to see.

    Within the Pakistani Air Force itself, the opinions about JF17 are very similar to that of the Chinese Air Force about J10A. With the rapid changes in the international security situation, the militaries of the two countries are having increasingly higher requirements for JF17 and J10A, hoping that the fighters are equipped with even more advanced technologies while containing the rise of cost.

    Under this circumstance, CAC has no alternative but undertaking constant upgrading of JF17 while keeping the cost low, with a hope that Pakistan would be pleased with the upgraded fighters. “JF17 is indeed a difficult project,” a source from the Chinese aviation industry said. As a matter of fact, the introduction of No.4 JF17 prototype has already been delayed until early next year. According to the original upgrading plan, test flight should have been conducted in September 2005.

    The JF17 put on display in 2004 had already undergone technological upgrading, which included enlarging the internal space of the air-intake channels and adding 4 strip-shaped structures to control vortex.

    The latest upgrading plan includes a redesigned aerodynamic structure of the front section of the fuselage, the addition of enlarged F/A-18 style leading edge extensions (LEX) to enhance lift efficiency, and improving the stability of the aircraft during high-attack angle flying. Kanwa speculates such upgrading is mainly because that Pakistani Air Force is now under the pressure from Indian Air Force’s Su30MKI. The latter’s 30-degree attack angle and performance in low-speed flight are very impressive.

    Meanwhile, the diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI) have also been redesigned for the airintake in order to streamline the structure and reduce weight. As a result, the fighter now has an improved performance in high-speed flight and much enhanced stealthy feature. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tailfin, and there will be a greater number of new electronic equipments and sensors fitted on the upgraded fighter. In order to reinforce FC1’s land-attack precision, the new No.4 FC1 model is added with two LT2 laser-guided bombs.
     
  2. Kaiser

    Kaiser FULL MEMBER

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    The last paragraph was GREAT news.We should ditch the f-16's and invest in 500-650 jf-17 each costing about 15 million total 5-8 billion which is a good price considering that much fighters.We'll have quality and quantity.The f-16 deal is 3 billion and its worth 75 f-16's for that much we could get 300 jf-17's.
     
  3. Owais

    Owais SENIOR MEMBER

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    Excellent news! I think that CAC has just succesfully made somethin batter than F-16C/D.

    BTW:Webby, can u post the pics of re-upgraded No.4 FC1/JF17 prototype showed at 2005 Beijing Aviation Exhibition.
     
  4. Kashif

    Kashif FULL MEMBER

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    F-16 has the same number of hardpoints but F-16s are far better then the thunders if CAC and PAC manages to increase the hardpoints then this plance can give a real punch to the enemy and it can also boost the export market.Pakistan cant spend that much on thunders.The case is same Pakistan is a small country and it dont have an aircraft carrier because it dosent need an aircraft.So same is the case with the thunders what will we do with that much thunders see what happens in the future if some real good changes are made then the production can be increased and you will see many thunders in the inventory.

    Webby post link for this news i wanna read the whole news
    Enjoy!
     
  5. Best of the Best

    Best of the Best FULL MEMBER

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    Dont be too happy guys coz Kanwas report's are usually wrong andthese guys dont go for facts and they just make up stories.....so relax and hey Ahsan plz give a link to this news.....
     
  6. tphuang

    tphuang FULL MEMBER

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    Kanwa is actually quite accurate on certain issues. 04 was displayed in the Beijing airshow, so everyone that went there could see the changes. The stuff on the bottom paragraph are quite accurate.
     
  7. Owais

    Owais SENIOR MEMBER

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    tphuang,

    Do U have images of that modofied 04rth proto. displayed in beijing AirShow?
     
  8. Best of the Best

    Best of the Best FULL MEMBER

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    yes true but that was just a toy or what you call ya display model or figure what the 04 model would look like but we have yet to see the actual 04 model with modifications and thats a fact........
     
  9. Neo

    Neo RETIRED

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    Tph,

    Do you have pic of the mockup 04 that was displayed?
    If the last paragraph is accurate, sure JF-17 would make a lethal combat fighter.
    I've read about the stealthy features before, but does China already has absorbing materials to make stealth fighters?

    I would love to see more modifications making the Thunder a MRCA, but we can't afford to have more delays.
     
  10. sigatoka

    sigatoka SENIOR MEMBER

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    It might seem that Pakistan's airforce needs can be fulfilled by F-16's alone. After all Pakistan already maintains F-16, and procuring more wouldnt increase complexity of logistics.

    It would seem acquiring more F-16 would be most sensible and scrapping the FC-1 purchase. After all the FC-1 and F-16 are so similar and would fulfill the same combat missions.

    This decision has to be balanced against the fact that the U.S. has maintained sactions against Pakistan which almost grounded Pakistani F-16 fleet and will do so again in the future when U.S. interests dont align with Pakistans.

    China the development partner has never placed sanctions against Pakistan and as a strategic ally is very unlikely to do so in the future.

    If Pakistan decides to purchase F-16's five years of spare parts at the very least should be purchased with it.

    In my view the Pakistan govt. shouldnt purchase more F-16 but buy around 200 FC-1. If the Pak. govt. purchased around 200, it would significantly lower the per unit cost of the FC-1 and China would be more likely to buy around another 200.

    Buying more F-16 AND FC-1 would be illogical. the per unit cost of FC-1 would be too high.
     
  11. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    sigatoka,

    For your information, Pakistan has ordered confirmed 150 JF-17s for the future, and the number will hit to 200 JF-17s most likely when considering to replace Mirages, A-5s, and F-7s with the ratio of 1:1.

    China on the other side has yet ordered around 300 fighters, but looks like it will too increase the number of JF-17s to 500 in the future, and i will assume that because of the ratio it needs to replace, and flight hours that it must maintain.

    Scrapping JF-17 deal would seem to be a foolish idea to me. Pakistan must improve its aviation industry, and that will improve once it knows how to build up planes, and this process has been going on with the help of our Chinese friends.

    I agree that JF-17 and F-16 are very similar aircrafts and it makes no point to have these similar aircrafts it our air force considering that we will need to setup a whole new system for JF-17 like infrastructure and so on, but to improve or typically make an aviation industry in Pakistan JF-17 must be made. However to improve it to the American standards, some help must be sought from United States to build up the plane.

    I donot see any problems from U.S helping in the JF-17 project, but i do see some trouble where Chinese version of JF-17 (FC-1) will need help, but note this can be done later on after transfer of technology taken place in Pakistan, and we have all the control over it.

    Right now, what i would do is to cut the F-16 deal. Sought help from United States once the TOT is completed. Increase the number of JF-17s to 250 if needed, and cut down the unit price for third world countries, when that happens there will be more orders for the aircraft and that is more than beneficial for us.

    Once that happens more money will be available for buying another fighter, but i do see some negative side to this which i would not go on.
     
  12. Kashif

    Kashif FULL MEMBER

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    Webby on what base you can say this US helping us on a Chinees plane. i dont think this is gonna happen.
    Did this kind of thing happen in the past i dont think so PAF is using a lot of Chineese fighters.
    On which aspects US would likely want to help or they can be convinced to help???
     
  13. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Kashif,

    Helping us with JF-17 can be done after all the tech is transfered to PAC, and we have all the control over the parts of it. Chinese will not have any problem with Americans helping us with JF-17, and Americans will not have any problems working with us over JF-17 since we will have no longer relations with FC-1 (chinese version of Super 7 project) or affiliation with chinese over the aircraft, since we will be making JF-17 indegniously and no longer with the chinese help.

    About on what aspects U.S would help us, well i am obviously not the manager of JF-17 project nor do i have control over if U.S would agree to help us over the project, but i am simply asuming that it would be better off if some help can be sought from Americans to get help for future advancements in JF-17.

    Regards,
    Ahsan F.

     
  14. Best of the Best

    Best of the Best FULL MEMBER

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    Simply a stupid concept American's wont help us with shit as far asthe JF-17's go i would have agreed with you ifyou would have said PAF could go to French or german's for help as far as JF-17's go but America's no way would they ever help us with the thunder's...........they already claim that the thunder's wont last five minutes against the F-16's they rather upgarde and sell there machines than to help us make our aircraft better in fact after this F-16 deal i would prefer PAF to move away from american equiptment and go for anything else since america always has problems with us one way or another they always come up with lame arduements and sanction us believe me what we are doing for these people we deserve something better than the F-16's but even still they are creating problems in selling this aircraft ie the F-16.......
     
  15. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Best,

    Not to get off topic, but I dont think there is a problem with selling F-16s from U.S side. The president of United States have approved the deal, then there shouldn't be any real problems, as for looking at that U.S is not providing the latest weaponry, i.e. Aim-120C and so on.

    About U.S not helping with the JF-17 project well that makes sense that we shouldn't rely on U.S all the times, and there are other options available to look at the choices for getting help for this project like Germany, France as you mentioned.

    Even the ACM doesn't trust the american policy and wants 50 of Chinese and 50 of Western inventory because of the fear of sanctions in the future, but in my opinion chances are highly unlikely.

    JF-17 is improving a lot, and we will see far more advanced upgrades as 04 prototype will fly in March. There is a lot of secret stuff that i know, and dont want to release out until it is ok to release out, but guys you will be surprised by 04 prototype performance.

    Regards,
    Ahsan F.