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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Tank131

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Grounded actually
To be grounded you have to have actual lifted off...
100 PL15s were widely reported to have been sent over post Pulwama encounter. So I would contest that. However to what extent will the JFT block 2 radar be able to guide the PL15 to its target remains to be seen.
A
Whether or not this is true, im not sure, but remeber that most missiles are not launched at max range. With KLJ-7V2's 150km range, the block 2 can still use the PL-15 very effective, and at at least 50 km out further than SD-10. But more than that range, it can more effectively use the weapon due to its larger no escape zone. If the SD-10A and AIM-120C5 have NEZ of ~40-45km (which is where most BVR engagements likely occur), the PL-15 may have an NEZ of 60-85km+. This will enable even a JF-17 blk2 to effectively take out aircraft further than they can even reach the JF-17 without their NEZ (in R-77 or MICA case). So it will still be very helpful for blk 2.
 

Horse_Rider

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To be grounded you have to have actual lifted off...

Whether or not this is true, im not sure, but remeber that most missiles are not launched at max range. With KLJ-7V2's 150km range, the block 2 can still use the PL-15 very effective, and at at least 50 km out further than SD-10. But more than that range, it can more effectively use the weapon due to its larger no escape zone. If the SD-10A and AIM-120C5 have NEZ of ~40-45km (which is where most BVR engagements likely occur), the PL-15 may have an NEZ of 60-85km+. This will enable even a JF-17 blk2 to effectively take out aircraft further than they can even reach the JF-17 without their NEZ (in R-77 or MICA case). So it will still be very helpful for blk 2.

PL-15 would go active at some point. If it's fired from a longer distance, it has more gas to chase down the jet who'd be defending. Once the missile starts to use active guidance, it no longer needs the firing jet to provide target updates, I believe there is a small AESA in PL-15 also.

Also, just 100 PL-15's were sent over? If the entire block III's can use the weapon and the J-10CP would also use these, than it makes sense to repeat AMRAAM like purchase, i.e. buy 500 of them so that in a case of conflict, we aren't short handed. 500 of these means roughly 2 for each Pakistan facing Indian jet (they usually deploy around 250 strength around Pakistan, it would change due to their squadron strength increasing soon).
 

Tank131

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PL-15 would go active at some point. If it's fired from a longer distance, it has more gas to chase down the jet who'd be defending. Once the missile starts to use active guidance, it no longer needs the firing jet to provide target updates, I believe there is a small AESA in PL-15 also.

Also, just 100 PL-15's were sent over? If the entire block III's can use the weapon and the J-10CP would also use these, than it makes sense to repeat AMRAAM like purchase, i.e. buy 500 of them so that in a case of conflict, we aren't short handed. 500 of these means roughly 2 for each Pakistan facing Indian jet (they usually deploy around 250 strength around Pakistan, it would change due to their squadron strength increasing soon).
The 100 weapons he was referring to was after Balak9t incident. I doubt it will reamain at 100, especially given blk 3 and J-10c using it. Im not sure i understand your other point... Of course PL-15 will go active, but for initial guidance, it needs the targeting from the FCR. You wont just launch it into the either and hope it locks on a target. My point was that even with a less than 200km ranged FCR, the Block 2 (and subsequently blk 3) can and would still be very effective with PL-15. Even though their radars have ranges of 150km and 170km respectively, we need to remember that BVR engagements are often within 35km. The NEZ of SD-10A and AMRAAM is 40-45km meaning with those weapons fired at ranges of 40-45km,the enemy has a high probability of being hit (both have full reported ranges of 70-100km). Now PL-15 has a reported range of 200km PL-15e of 150km. You arent gonna shoot anything at that range, but its NEZ will likely be far greater than SD-10A and AIM-120C5,meaning block 2 and block 3 will still use it effectively, even if not at max range.
 

siegecrossbow

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To be grounded you have to have actual lifted off...

Whether or not this is true, im not sure, but remeber that most missiles are not launched at max range. With KLJ-7V2's 150km range, the block 2 can still use the PL-15 very effective, and at at least 50 km out further than SD-10. But more than that range, it can more effectively use the weapon due to its larger no escape zone. If the SD-10A and AIM-120C5 have NEZ of ~40-45km (which is where most BVR engagements likely occur), the PL-15 may have an NEZ of 60-85km+. This will enable even a JF-17 blk2 to effectively take out aircraft further than they can even reach the JF-17 without their NEZ (in R-77 or MICA case). So it will still be very helpful for blk 2.

150KM is detection range, not tracking range.
 

Horse_Rider

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The 100 weapons he was referring to was after Balak9t incident. I doubt it will reamain at 100, especially given blk 3 and J-10c using it. Im not sure i understand your other point... Of course PL-15 will go active, but for initial guidance, it needs the targeting from the FCR. You wont just launch it into the either and hope it locks on a target. My point was that even with a less than 200km ranged FCR, the Block 2 (and subsequently blk 3) can and would still be very effective with PL-15. Even though their radars have ranges of 150km and 170km respectively, we need to remember that BVR engagements are often within 35km. The NEZ of SD-10A and AMRAAM is 40-45km meaning with those weapons fired at ranges of 40-45km,the enemy has a high probability of being hit (both have full reported ranges of 70-100km). Now PL-15 has a reported range of 200km PL-15e of 150km. You arent gonna shoot anything at that range, but its NEZ will likely be far greater than SD-10A and AIM-120C5,meaning block 2 and block 3 will still use it effectively, even if not at max range.

If you read your post above, you've answered your own question that I was trying to address. The PL-15 given to Pakistan are a 150 KM range weapons, not 200. Secondly, yes, the JFT-Block II can fire it as that radar is more or less 150 KM range also. But even it if were a bit less, the missile would've received mid-course guidance and target coordinates much before the radar's range was to subside and then it would go active. The BVR's are fired from 20-60 KM in most cases. I expect that to change once there is a true war with both sides armed with similar 4th gen jets. I expect the future wars to be heavily BVR centric with larger ranges to use FAF weapons (fire and forget).
 
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MastanKhan

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If you read your post above, you've answered your own question that I was trying to address. The PL-15 given to Pakistan are a 150 KM range weapons, not 200. Secondly, yes, the JFT-Block II can fire it as that radar is more or less 150 KM range also. But even it if were a bit less, the missile would've received mid-course guidance and target coordinates much before the radar's range was to subside and then it would go active. The BVR's are fired from 20-60 KM in most cases. I expect that to change once there is a true war armed with similar 4th gen jets. I expect the future wars to be heavily BVR centric with larges ranges to use FAF weapons (fire and forget).
Hi,

Is that a claim---inside information or just pure assumption---.
 

Tank131

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If you read your post above, you've answered your own question that I was trying to address. The PL-15 given to Pakistan are a 150 KM range weapons, not 200. Secondly, yes, the JFT-Block II can fire it as that radar is more or less 150 KM range also. But even it if were a bit less, the missile would've received mid-course guidance and target coordinates much before the radar's range was to subside and then it would go active. The BVR's are fired from 20-60 KM in most cases. I expect that to change once there is a true war armed with similar 4th gen jets. I expect the future wars to be heavily BVR centric with larges ranges to use FAF weapons (fire and forget).
I never asked a question. I answered another's question as to whether blk 2 could even utilize PL15 effectively. The answer is yes.
 

CLUMSY

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100 PL15s were widely reported to have been sent over post Pulwama encounter. So I would contest that. However to what extent will the JFT block 2 radar be able to guide the PL15 to its target remains to be seen.
A
I think PL-15 can also be guided via AWACs. So in case where we have AWACs during an encounter in the AO that would be a serious boost to our capability in terms of target deterrence.
 

Horse_Rider

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Hi,

Is that a claim---inside information or just pure assumption---.

My "limited" knowledge about the first batch. Secondly, Pakistan was offered PL-15E and 150km is their stated official max range. The later batches might have been longer ranged, I'm not sure. Usually, the OEM pairs the Radar with a similar range missile. So it logically makes sense that a 150KM radar would be paired with a 150KM missile (both export versions).

Majority of Pak-Indo airspace activity is within 100-200 KM's of the border. So a JFT flying near Gujrat somewhere has total ability to lock and shoot at incomings from Pathankot. Similarly, a JFT flying north of Islamabad will have situational awareness to jets flying from Sri Nagar, flying near Gujranwala, you could do the same to Amritsar and may be beyond, a JFT near Bahawalpur somewhere can target around Bekaner and Badin to Sir Creek and Bhuj and so on. This is unmatched capability we never had before.
 

MastanKhan

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My "limited" knowledge about the first batch. Secondly, Pakistan was offered PL-15E and 150km is their stated official max range. The later batches might have been longer ranged, I'm not sure. Usually, the OEM pairs the Radar with a similar range missile. So it logically makes sense that a 150KM radar would be paired with a 150KM missile (both export versions).

Majority of Pak-Indo airspace activity is within 100-200 KM's of the border. So a JFT flying near Gujrat somewhere has total ability to lock and shoot at incomings from Pathankot. Similarly, a JFT flying north of Islamabad will have situational awareness to jets flying from Sri Nagar, flying near Gujranwala, you could do the same to Amritsar and may be beyond, a JFT near Bahawalpur somewhere can target around Bekaner and Badin to Sir Creek and Bhuj and so on. This is unmatched capability we never had before.
Hi,

Sometimes logic don't work as assumed, unless actual information is available.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Data link has done wonders in this field---.

J-10 came with PL-15 E. So If E came with J-10, then JF-17 going to get the same E, no?
Hi,

That is a prudent way of thinking---unless something drastic happened---.
 
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Windjammer

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Horse_Rider

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Hi,

Sometimes logic don't work as assumed, unless actual information is available.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Data link has done wonders in this field---.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.........the answer was suppose to be in the eyes of the reader :enjoy:

I think PL-15 can also be guided via AWACs. So in case where we have AWACs during an encounter in the AO that would be a serious boost to our capability in terms of target deterrence.

Yes. Currently the PL-15 can instantiate data link with KJ-500. I don't think one exist for ZDK-03 and definitely not for the Erieye. A senior USAF general even mentioned KJ-500 by name and said they want to study this "kill chain" that the Chinese have created, referring to KJ-500 and LRBVR weapons like the PL-15.

I don't think this solution would make sense for Pakistan though. We have a small airspace to manage. We'd be better off using some heavies with bigger radar and missile loadout, or, future Akincis and KizilElma's would do this for us cheaply and nicely, both decent AEW & BVR.
 
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