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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

GriffinsRule

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Ego can be dealt with. Treason be dealt with.
What cannot be and is hurting us is stupidity.
Well you have a thread with people looking at clouds that are a natural occuring phenomenon and conflating it with a nuclear test. I've learned over time to keep expectations very low from Pakistan, it's awam and it's leadership.
 

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

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Nigerian Air Force JF-17 Thunder Flypast
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sparten

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The point you're missing is that between the drawing board and the operational realm, Turkey actually has something to talk about. We don't. That's the gap @JamD, myself, and others are trying to address.
We have several projects to talk about.
Our programs either wither away on the drawing board (e.g., AZM) or, ultimately, end up losing priority to off-the-shelf solutions (e.g., al-Khalid 2 and VT-4). This is happening because we lack industrial and R&D capabilities in the middle. Turkey has this "middle" aspect, which is why you can be confident in their ability to drive a project home more so than Pakistan.
Azm was advertised to arrive later this decade. Anyone who makes any claim about it, really is just speculating. And VT4, AlKhalid is the same pattern as the T80UD and OG Al-Khalid a generation ago. The VT4, a proven tank from a foreign supplir can fill the "need it now" requirement and AK-II can be the one with the bells and whistles which takes account of the latest trends and our requirements (the original AK under went a major redesign after Grozny, to avoid jack in the box effects). We have a requirement for over 3500 tanks (not counting 500 or so committed to FC). That means that we need tanks from multiple sources, since realistically our own industry (or anyone elses not name US or China) isn't going to be able to produce that number on its own (unless we coopt our domestic automotive industry, which we should, but will require a substantial investment).
Yes, I'll concede that operating in a nuclear environment has far more stringent requirements. So, yes, our strategically-oriented ballistic missiles and cruise missiles have to meet those standards. Fair. However, we've been seeing fails across the chain in conventional areas (like tanks, armoured vehicles, drones, etc) which can't be explained away due to the nuclear environment. In each of those situations, the outcome is literally the same: The project gets nixed, or gets superseded by an import.
. Which again goes back to the industrial base point, although I believe the Viper IFV has started production in the old M113 factory. Our military industrial base has certain capacity limits. Which is also true of Turkey (though theirs is bigger), we have had serious concerns as to their ability to provide stuff in a timley fashion. I loved the Cavalier Group's designs. But the question of being able to produce them in sufficient numbers in a timely manner was never satisfactorily answered and it would have been prohibitively expensive to setup production facilities, fabricate tooling and train workers for vehicle which would have had (at best) a production run of 2-3000 examples. Even if we asked an existing manufacturer to take over, The new, armored Toyota pickups are ugly as all hell, but there are well developed and established production lines for them and the modifications that are necessary can be done inside the factory and we can have hundreds of such vehicles made yearly.

Also this misses some highly successful recent developments, like the Yarmouk-ER and Fatah long range MLRS.
BTW, we were also manufacturing and operationalizing drones before Turkey. Today, we're importing drones from Turkey.
Tactical UAV, not MALE. Shahpar was the first one which approached that level, and even then calling it a MALE is a stretch. And in reply to what you said upthread, we haven't shifted to using foreign designs instead of our own. We are using both, with the Army preferring locally made ones (Burraq, Shahpar, Shahpar II) and the PAF foreign ones (Wing Loong, TB-2, Akinci). This is for reasons the services best know themselves. And its not a new thing. Back in the 2000's the Army used Flamingo and the PAF got the Falco. from overseas, and neither service showed much interest in the other.
 

CSAW

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With Anti Runway bombs.

The Hafr RPB has been indigenously developed and is produced by the Air Weapons Complex.

Similar in operation to the Matra Durandal, which creates two separate explosions which displace the concrete slabs of a runway, thus making it much more difficult to repair than normal anti runway weapons. The munition falls onto a runway via parachute after release.

When the bomb has reached a certain angle due to the parachute’s drag, it fires a rocket booster that accelerates it into the runway surface. The primary charge explodes after the weapon has penetrated the concrete and drives the secondary charge even deeper. The secondary charge then explodes after a one-second delay. It also has a programmable fuse that can delay the secondary detonation up to several hours.

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Hakikat ve Hikmet

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India is still there .

Nothing has changed . Pakistani establishment did make right decision for not siding with loosing side...even Chinese haven't sided openly with Russia.

The drones Iranians provided...
Alot better game changing drone could have been provided by china.

I am afraid I won't agree with your assessment or that of your grand father's on this matter . But let's just get back to topic
The Pak Deep State Mantra: be the first in queue when food is served, and be the last in the queue when fighting starts.....

Russia is a loser as far as this the Ukranian war is concerned with deep and persistent ramifications. It's shaking the foundation of the Russian state as her educated folks leaving Russia en masse. I have to admit the Pak Deep State is leveraging it......
 

Falcon26

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Türkiye is leagues ahead in every domain.

Let's talk about rockets. They've mastered dual-pulse rocket motor (DPMR) tech well enough to use it for SRAAMs, BVR AAMs, short and medium-range SAMs, and now a long-range SAM (SIPER). This is really complex and intricate stuff. They have had to master a really high level of expertise in metallurgy, solid fuels, and electronics (for the guidance stacks).

Okay, what about cruise missiles? They've literally just tested the indigenous core of their mainline turbofan engine for every one of their cruise missiles, including the SOM, SOM-J, ATMACA, ATMACA KARA, and Gezgin. In fact, their Gezgin GLCM will probably cut way ahead in range compared to the Babur in its very first model (1,200 to 1,500 km).

This isn't even a debate.

India is ahead of Pakistan, and Türkiye is ahead of Pakistan. If anything, the real debate now is seeing who'll cross into the "big leagues" first -- Türkiye or India. Due to some common ties (e.g., religion, the Turkic origins of the Ottomans and Mughals, and the help Muslims in India gave during WW1), they're inviting us to their team. We should humble ourselves, and join.

In fact, I think you remember even 4-5 years ago, I was saying Türkiye was on the cusp of something great. This was all the while "señor membarz" were saying their industry was just stickering Western stuff. Seriously, had we taken the risk back and poured money into their R&D (for Altay, T625, MMU, the TB2, radars, ESM/EW tech, rockets, cruise missiles, etc) back then, we'd be leagues ahead today.

Solid post.

I remember you making this argument on Pakdef once and H Khan losing his mind. The Turkish train is moving very fast, and I am afraid Pakistan will miss it. From civilian projects like trains, electric vehicles, health care to military domain, Pakistan will do itself a world of favor by partnering with Turkey. But a corrupt rent-seeking elite that only knows how to milk real estate, Dubai properties and other frivolous endeavors can’t be expected to think strategically.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Solid post.

I remember you making this argument on Pakdef once and H Khan losing his mind. The Turkish train is moving very fast, and I am afraid Pakistan will miss it. From civilian projects like trains, electric vehicles, health care to military domain, Pakistan will do itself a world of favor by partnering with Turkey. But a corrupt rent-seeking elite that only knows how to milk real estate, Dubai properties and other frivolous endeavors can’t be expected to think strategically.
In fairness to H Khan, he was losing his mind about the MILGEM news for some reason. However, even he was behind the idea of not just working with Turkey, but emulating their defence industry model. In fact, the guy openly called the armed forces out for their poor marketing assets at one of the early IDEAS. So, to his credit, he was on the ball with this stuff from the start.
 

Bilal.

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With Anti Runway bombs.

The Hafr RPB has been indigenously developed and is produced by the Air Weapons Complex.

Similar in operation to the Matra Durandal, which creates two separate explosions which displace the concrete slabs of a runway, thus making it much more difficult to repair than normal anti runway weapons. The munition falls onto a runway via parachute after release.

When the bomb has reached a certain angle due to the parachute’s drag, it fires a rocket booster that accelerates it into the runway surface. The primary charge explodes after the weapon has penetrated the concrete and drives the secondary charge even deeper. The secondary charge then explodes after a one-second delay. It also has a programmable fuse that can delay the secondary detonation up to several hours.

View attachment 885740
View attachment 885741
IIR guided REKIII shown like @kursed said. But what’s the meaning of AR label for the other similar REKIII?
 

AsifIjaz

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Till our premiere institutes (the few we have, which on a world stage are novice at best).. till they are "ruled" by boots and staffed based upon personal connections, or the jobs are based upon service record and not on the basis of contribution to the field and relevant expertise.. and projects are decided based upon what they think is possible or easy.. till tht continues to happens.. we will suffer with 3 outcomes

1. Brain drain
2. Lethargic institutes with miniscule productivity
3. Pathetic research papers and their practicality

I know of a few cases where post docs were offered pathetic pay which they accepted because of their family
commitments especially for their parent's sake.. but they lived a constipated life in the institutes. Almost in all the institutes the admin was retired military who had no concept except time in and time out, dress code and management of office supplies. In another institute a post doc in alternative energy from EU was forced to walk out of the door as admin didnt like his casual dressing or his long hairs. Such attitudes and idiots in power save a few hundred thousand rupees over the years, treat ppl like school kids but individually all force bright minds to ultimately move to places in GCC and Europe.
This needs to change.
 

RAMPAGE

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Till our premiere institutes (the few we have, which on a world stage are novice at best).. till they are "ruled" by boots and staffed based upon personal connections, or the jobs are based upon service record and not on the basis of contribution to the field and relevant expertise.. and projects are decided based upon what they think is possible or easy.. till tht continues to happens.. we will suffer with 3 outcomes

1. Brain drain
2. Lethargic institutes with miniscule productivity
3. Pathetic research papers and their practicality

I know of a few cases where post docs were offered pathetic pay which they accepted because of their family
commitments especially for their parent's sake.. but they lived a constipated life in the institutes. Almost in all the institutes the admin was retired military who had no concept except time in and time out, dress code and management of office supplies. In another institute a post doc in alternative energy from EU was forced to walk out of the door as admin didnt like his casual dressing or his long hairs. Such attitudes and idiots in power save a few hundred thousand rupees over the years, treat ppl like school kids but individually all force bright minds to ultimately move to places in GCC and Europe.
This needs to change.
@Signalian

Superior leadership at work.
 

M.AsfandYar

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ost in all the institutes the admin was retired military who had no concept except time in and time out, dress code and management of office supplies. In another institute a post doc in alternative energy from EU was forced to walk out of the door as admin didnt like his casual dressing or his long hairs.
Can attest to this

@Signalian

Superior leadership at work.
You are banging your head against a wall.
 

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