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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

ghazi52

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,.,.,.
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Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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But I am told they are taught leadership, so they must be very qualified, no? @Signalian
When it comes to teaching leadership in Pakistan (as a whole), we tend to skip the lesson about "delegating."

We can become "hands-on" to a fault where we can't let a task go to the people who are actually skilled in that field. I've seen Pakistanis with this problem in a lot of areas, i.e., marketing our defence industry all the way to managing nihari restaurants in Toronto.

It's a cultural thing within Pakistan.
 

Signalian

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When it comes to teaching leadership in Pakistan (as a whole), we tend to skip the lesson about "delegating."

We can become "hands-on" to a fault where we can't let a task go to the people who are actually skilled in that field. I've seen Pakistanis with this problem in a lot of areas, i.e., marketing our defence industry all the way to managing nihari restaurants in Toronto.

It's a cultural thing within Pakistan.
Bro, there were never any standards. ISPR work in general is managed by people who aren't professional marketing, media, PR, etc specialists.

Being somewhat inside and part of the Pakistan's military system, while the public may hold unsatisfying and unending views that Pak Army, PAF, PN or ISPR has to operate in a certain way, the men having years of experience still know better than a civilian standing on the sidelines and examining the system. PMA gives bachelor degree, Staff course gives masters degree while NDU gives all as well as higher degrees. In fact, officers also get degrees from abroad ranging from Masters to PhD. ISPR has civilian crew too, so do other branches of military. ISPR has to involve civilians and other civil organisations due to the nature of its operations. This compliment of military-civilian collaboration was brought to fill the gaps where needed. However, its understood that almost everything needs approval of DG. His post is pressurized by several factors but he has enough years behind him to sustain that pressure from top. But if the public wants that DG should be PhD in media subjects, they can take a hike I would say. He is given a task, prepared for it, given an experienced crew, he then runs it. The lack of faith in leadership is also infested from childhood when the elders talk why Pakistan will be what it is (usually a failure), the outcome of this is a life long disease of the mind that gives an unfulfilling need to change everything in Pakistan without understanding anything relevant regarding the subject.

PMA is about leadership and delegating tasks. A commanding officer is not omni-present, thats the crux of delegating task. Officers leading from the front is a leadership element but that doesnt undermine delegating task component. This is why the positions of 2IC, adjutant, company commanders, platoon leaders etc hold their significance. A CO cannot do all. Delegating tasks is taught in leadership as leadership is incomplete without it. The 4-terms of PMA inculcates that fully and then it is completely shown in the unit life as the regiment life remains incomplete without it. To give you an example, CO is just a face attending meetings and conferences with higher ups, the unit is running through 2IC aided by adjutant.

Coming back to, being inside and part of a system. All have different experiences, which contrast with timelines, the hot topics, the type of contacts, the association with those contacts etc. As an example, during 2000's the ISSB process that I saw was not the same as others had seen, 10 or 20 years ago. I have at least learnt to trust my senses of what I saw first hand.

You will find many blind people on PDF. Then there is also a contagious rat race of cursing.
Let me give you another example, I have been told in many posts that I am pro-Army and I defend Army and I am on Army's side. Pick a topic or thread I started, almost in every topic Im always making suggestions to improve a certain area of Army or PAF, be it a formation, a weapon system or ammunition or logistics or whatever the subject matter is. The difference is that I am not cursing Army, I am using a sane logical way to give information but also telling about Army's shortcomings and giving my suggestions to improve those. If I was so much in love with Army, why the hell would I open topics by finding shortcomings in Army/PAF/PN and then suggesting ways to improve. The lack of common sense runs wild. These blind men see giving information as defending an institution, they go blind and deaf when I am clearly telling where Army lacks and needs improvement. Maybe cursing and abusing is the way to get my point across ?

I have no urge to defend ISPR, curse it as much as anybody likes. Those not happy with ISPR's standards or the DG's experience can run amuck (amok) like headless chicken, but whats the easy way - curse, abuse, rant, whine, whinge - thats the Pakistani way which is seen in senior members also. Honestly, I can do the same, lets say, about the Armored Division, instead of opening a topic to discuss my thoughts, I can throw 10 abuses, rant 100 times, curse in every post but never find a way to be critically positive.

While PDF is a learning ground, sharing information becomes more and more complicated when there topics are made on tweets, and false media news. It boils down to defending stances then, which is even worse. For me PDF is/was a learning ground of knowledge, now its a battleground of defending beliefs. There is so much information on PDF which is laying around but going to waste.

Lastly, I have just come across only 3 members (1 of them is professionally titled) on PDF since 2015 who are actually (or have been) part of a system thus knowing what they are talking about. Others, even if i engage, I back off when I read their posts coz their words clearly show they are just mucking around through information heard from left and right. On confrontation, it becomes a battle of ego then I let them win coz my learning ends there.

In reality, will the Military be concerned what goes on PDF about them- hardly. Military only keeps an eye on intel leakage of sensitive information on PDF. The cursing and ranting can continue against the uniform, and its directorates, hardly makes a difference to them.
 

Irfan Baloch

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Being somewhat inside and part of the Pakistan's military system, while the public may hold unsatisfying and unending views that Pak Army, PAF, PN or ISPR has to operate in a certain way, the men having years of experience still know better than a civilian standing on the sidelines and examining the system. PMA gives bachelor degree, Staff course gives masters degree while NDU gives all as well as higher degrees. In fact, officers also get degrees from abroad ranging from Masters to PhD. ISPR has civilian crew too, so do other branches of military. ISPR has to involve civilians and other civil organisations due to the nature of its operations. This compliment of military-civilian collaboration was brought to fill the gaps where needed. However, its understood that almost everything needs approval of DG. His post is pressurized by several factors but he has enough years behind him to sustain that pressure from top. But if the public wants that DG should be PhD in media subjects, they can take a hike I would say. He is given a task, prepared for it, given an experienced crew, he then runs it. The lack of faith in leadership is also infested from childhood when the elders talk why Pakistan will be what it is (usually a failure), the outcome of this is a life long disease of the mind that gives an unfulfilling need to change everything in Pakistan without understanding anything relevant regarding the subject.

PMA is about leadership and delegating tasks. A commanding officer is not omni-present, thats the crux of delegating task. Officers leading from the front is a leadership element but that doesnt undermine delegating task component. This is why the positions of 2IC, adjutant, company commanders, platoon leaders etc hold their significance. A CO cannot do all. Delegating tasks is taught in leadership as leadership is incomplete without it. The 4-terms of PMA inculcates that fully and then it is completely shown in the unit life as the regiment life remains incomplete without it. To give you an example, CO is just a face attending meetings and conferences with higher ups, the unit is running through 2IC aided by adjutant.

Coming back to, being inside and part of a system. All have different experiences, which contrast with timelines, the hot topics, the type of contacts, the association with those contacts etc. As an example, during 2000's the ISSB process that I saw was not the same as others had seen, 10 or 20 years ago. I have at least learnt to trust my senses of what I saw first hand.

You will find many blind people on PDF. Then there is also a contagious rat race of cursing.
Let me give you another example, I have been told in many posts that I am pro-Army and I defend Army and I am on Army's side. Pick a topic or thread I started, almost in every topic Im always making suggestions to improve a certain area of Army or PAF, be it a formation, a weapon system or ammunition or logistics or whatever the subject matter is. The difference is that I am not cursing Army, I am using a sane logical way to give information but also telling about Army's shortcomings and giving my suggestions to improve those. If I was so much in love with Army, why the hell would I open topics by finding shortcomings in Army/PAF/PN and then suggesting ways to improve. The lack of common sense runs wild. These blind men see giving information as defending an institution, they go blind and deaf when I am clearly telling where Army lacks and needs improvement. Maybe cursing and abusing is the way to get my point across ?

I have no urge to defend ISPR, curse it as much as anybody likes. Those not happy with ISPR's standards or the DG's experience can run amuck (amok) like headless chicken, but whats the easy way - curse, abuse, rant, whine, whinge - thats the Pakistani way which is seen in senior members also. Honestly, I can do the same, lets say, about the Armored Division, instead of opening a topic to discuss my thoughts, I can throw 10 abuses, rant 100 times, curse in every post but never find a way to be critically positive.

While PDF is a learning ground, sharing information becomes more and more complicated when there topics are made on tweets, and false media news. It boils down to defending stances then, which is even worse. For me PDF is/was a learning ground of knowledge, now its a battleground of defending beliefs. There is so much information on PDF which is laying around but going to waste.

Lastly, I have just come across only 3 members (1 of them is professionally titled) on PDF since 2015 who are actually (or have been) part of a system thus knowing what they are talking about. Others, even if i engage, I back off when I read their posts coz their words clearly show they are just mucking around through information heard from left and right. On confrontation, it becomes a battle of ego then I let them win coz my learning ends there.

In reality, will the Military be concerned what goes on PDF about them- hardly. Military only keeps an eye on intel leakage of sensitive information on PDF. The cursing and ranting can continue against the uniform, and its directorates, hardly makes a difference to them.
this post deserves a dedicated thread. thanks for eloquently sharing your point of view. do let me know if you want me to create your post as an OP for further discussion?

everyone else, lets revert back to the topic about the JF17.
 

MastanKhan

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Hi,

An interesting video by youtuber AM RAAD about the BLK 3 posted yesterday.

Factually---most of us will not know for awhile about the EW package on this aircraft---.

 

Ali_Baba

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May 27, 2018
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Hi,

An interesting video by youtuber AM RAAD about the BLK 3 posted yesterday.

Factually---most of us will not know for awhile about the EW package on this aircraft---.


I would be interested to know if it has adopted a single panel large format display or retained the 3 MFD that current jets do.
 

Sinnerman108

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Jul 20, 2009
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Being somewhat inside and part of the Pakistan's military system, while the public may hold unsatisfying and unending views that Pak Army, PAF, PN or ISPR has to operate in a certain way, the men having years of experience still know better than a civilian standing on the sidelines and examining the system. PMA gives bachelor degree, Staff course gives masters degree while NDU gives all as well as higher degrees. In fact, officers also get degrees from abroad ranging from Masters to PhD. ISPR has civilian crew too, so do other branches of military. ISPR has to involve civilians and other civil organisations due to the nature of its operations. This compliment of military-civilian collaboration was brought to fill the gaps where needed. However, its understood that almost everything needs approval of DG. His post is pressurized by several factors but he has enough years behind him to sustain that pressure from top. But if the public wants that DG should be PhD in media subjects, they can take a hike I would say. He is given a task, prepared for it, given an experienced crew, he then runs it. The lack of faith in leadership is also infested from childhood when the elders talk why Pakistan will be what it is (usually a failure), the outcome of this is a life long disease of the mind that gives an unfulfilling need to change everything in Pakistan without understanding anything relevant regarding the subject.

PMA is about leadership and delegating tasks. A commanding officer is not omni-present, thats the crux of delegating task. Officers leading from the front is a leadership element but that doesnt undermine delegating task component. This is why the positions of 2IC, adjutant, company commanders, platoon leaders etc hold their significance. A CO cannot do all. Delegating tasks is taught in leadership as leadership is incomplete without it. The 4-terms of PMA inculcates that fully and then it is completely shown in the unit life as the regiment life remains incomplete without it. To give you an example, CO is just a face attending meetings and conferences with higher ups, the unit is running through 2IC aided by adjutant.

Coming back to, being inside and part of a system. All have different experiences, which contrast with timelines, the hot topics, the type of contacts, the association with those contacts etc. As an example, during 2000's the ISSB process that I saw was not the same as others had seen, 10 or 20 years ago. I have at least learnt to trust my senses of what I saw first hand.

You will find many blind people on PDF. Then there is also a contagious rat race of cursing.
Let me give you another example, I have been told in many posts that I am pro-Army and I defend Army and I am on Army's side. Pick a topic or thread I started, almost in every topic Im always making suggestions to improve a certain area of Army or PAF, be it a formation, a weapon system or ammunition or logistics or whatever the subject matter is. The difference is that I am not cursing Army, I am using a sane logical way to give information but also telling about Army's shortcomings and giving my suggestions to improve those. If I was so much in love with Army, why the hell would I open topics by finding shortcomings in Army/PAF/PN and then suggesting ways to improve. The lack of common sense runs wild. These blind men see giving information as defending an institution, they go blind and deaf when I am clearly telling where Army lacks and needs improvement. Maybe cursing and abusing is the way to get my point across ?

I have no urge to defend ISPR, curse it as much as anybody likes. Those not happy with ISPR's standards or the DG's experience can run amuck (amok) like headless chicken, but whats the easy way - curse, abuse, rant, whine, whinge - thats the Pakistani way which is seen in senior members also. Honestly, I can do the same, lets say, about the Armored Division, instead of opening a topic to discuss my thoughts, I can throw 10 abuses, rant 100 times, curse in every post but never find a way to be critically positive.

While PDF is a learning ground, sharing information becomes more and more complicated when there topics are made on tweets, and false media news. It boils down to defending stances then, which is even worse. For me PDF is/was a learning ground of knowledge, now its a battleground of defending beliefs. There is so much information on PDF which is laying around but going to waste.

Lastly, I have just come across only 3 members (1 of them is professionally titled) on PDF since 2015 who are actually (or have been) part of a system thus knowing what they are talking about. Others, even if i engage, I back off when I read their posts coz their words clearly show they are just mucking around through information heard from left and right. On confrontation, it becomes a battle of ego then I let them win coz my learning ends there.

In reality, will the Military be concerned what goes on PDF about them- hardly. Military only keeps an eye on intel leakage of sensitive information on PDF. The cursing and ranting can continue against the uniform, and its directorates, hardly makes a difference to them.

You DP,

your first DP,

Go there to that place, and see how things are done, and if they have made any improvement since the last 50 or so years except for becoming a college from what was a school.

now try justifying everything you have said in that perspective.
 

Farhan Bohra

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Jul 5, 2016
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Being somewhat inside and part of the Pakistan's military system, while the public may hold unsatisfying and unending views that Pak Army, PAF, PN or ISPR has to operate in a certain way, the men having years of experience still know better than a civilian standing on the sidelines and examining the system. PMA gives bachelor degree, Staff course gives masters degree while NDU gives all as well as higher degrees. In fact, officers also get degrees from abroad ranging from Masters to PhD. ISPR has civilian crew too, so do other branches of military. ISPR has to involve civilians and other civil organisations due to the nature of its operations. This compliment of military-civilian collaboration was brought to fill the gaps where needed. However, its understood that almost everything needs approval of DG. His post is pressurized by several factors but he has enough years behind him to sustain that pressure from top. But if the public wants that DG should be PhD in media subjects, they can take a hike I would say. He is given a task, prepared for it, given an experienced crew, he then runs it. The lack of faith in leadership is also infested from childhood when the elders talk why Pakistan will be what it is (usually a failure), the outcome of this is a life long disease of the mind that gives an unfulfilling need to change everything in Pakistan without understanding anything relevant regarding the subject.

PMA is about leadership and delegating tasks. A commanding officer is not omni-present, thats the crux of delegating task. Officers leading from the front is a leadership element but that doesnt undermine delegating task component. This is why the positions of 2IC, adjutant, company commanders, platoon leaders etc hold their significance. A CO cannot do all. Delegating tasks is taught in leadership as leadership is incomplete without it. The 4-terms of PMA inculcates that fully and then it is completely shown in the unit life as the regiment life remains incomplete without it. To give you an example, CO is just a face attending meetings and conferences with higher ups, the unit is running through 2IC aided by adjutant.

Coming back to, being inside and part of a system. All have different experiences, which contrast with timelines, the hot topics, the type of contacts, the association with those contacts etc. As an example, during 2000's the ISSB process that I saw was not the same as others had seen, 10 or 20 years ago. I have at least learnt to trust my senses of what I saw first hand.

You will find many blind people on PDF. Then there is also a contagious rat race of cursing.
Let me give you another example, I have been told in many posts that I am pro-Army and I defend Army and I am on Army's side. Pick a topic or thread I started, almost in every topic Im always making suggestions to improve a certain area of Army or PAF, be it a formation, a weapon system or ammunition or logistics or whatever the subject matter is. The difference is that I am not cursing Army, I am using a sane logical way to give information but also telling about Army's shortcomings and giving my suggestions to improve those. If I was so much in love with Army, why the hell would I open topics by finding shortcomings in Army/PAF/PN and then suggesting ways to improve. The lack of common sense runs wild. These blind men see giving information as defending an institution, they go blind and deaf when I am clearly telling where Army lacks and needs improvement. Maybe cursing and abusing is the way to get my point across ?

I have no urge to defend ISPR, curse it as much as anybody likes. Those not happy with ISPR's standards or the DG's experience can run amuck (amok) like headless chicken, but whats the easy way - curse, abuse, rant, whine, whinge - thats the Pakistani way which is seen in senior members also. Honestly, I can do the same, lets say, about the Armored Division, instead of opening a topic to discuss my thoughts, I can throw 10 abuses, rant 100 times, curse in every post but never find a way to be critically positive.

While PDF is a learning ground, sharing information becomes more and more complicated when there topics are made on tweets, and false media news. It boils down to defending stances then, which is even worse. For me PDF is/was a learning ground of knowledge, now its a battleground of defending beliefs. There is so much information on PDF which is laying around but going to waste.

Lastly, I have just come across only 3 members (1 of them is professionally titled) on PDF since 2015 who are actually (or have been) part of a system thus knowing what they are talking about. Others, even if i engage, I back off when I read their posts coz their words clearly show they are just mucking around through information heard from left and right. On confrontation, it becomes a battle of ego then I let them win coz my learning ends there.

In reality, will the Military be concerned what goes on PDF about them- hardly. Military only keeps an eye on intel leakage of sensitive information on PDF. The cursing and ranting can continue against the uniform, and its directorates, hardly makes a difference to them.
PDF is a case study in itself to check the sentiments and discourse of Pak society. Lots of analyses were done in India, and if we are doing it, then Pak fauj must be doing the same, to check the mood of the nation ( btw ever thought why the Indian national security agency never banned PDF in India, while banning almost all Pakistani channels and lots of Whatsapp groups and handles on twitter).

And I assuming things here, but I am sure I am correct, the Pakistanis who access PDF are mostly urban-based, and like in India I assume most of the officer recruitment must happen from the urban class. They be foolish if they think ranting and cursing don't matter to them. Further, fauj in Pakistan is political,,, they need public support not just for recruitment.

And I can tell you, things are not the same, as what was like 10 years ago.
 

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