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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

JamD

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The root issue isn't that it's the military is in charge of these departments, but that people who aren't qualified and experienced are heading them up. So, in most cases, the generals or other officers who get parachuted into leading orgs aren't familiar with the org's work, culture, team, or vision. In the best-case scenario, they come in, sit and watch, and in the worst-case scenario they drive the real talent out of the org and, eventually, the country.

The problem with Pakistani generals is that they have a real bad case of 'desi uncle-messiah syndrome.' They can't and won't delegate to others. Despite the fact that there are millions of civilian Pakistani experts in a huge range of fields (a big % being of military lineage), generals will not lean on them and will insist to manage these orgs themselves.

This tells me that it isn't 'privilege' or 'discrimination' driving the thought of our generals. If it was only discrimination, then at least civilians who are the children of retired officers would be asked to lead said orgs. But we don't even get that. What's driving our generals' thinking is just some irrational mental block. It's just stupidity.

Actually you started your post with exactly the right idea. The problem is that UNQUALIFIED and INCOMPETENT military people are heading organizations or put in leadership roles. And the problem with them is that they are extremely threatened by anyone with talent/ideas. Case in point what happened to the head of Azm - a PAF guy, who with his faults was a technically competent person, and was moved to an administrative job by superiors that felt threatened, and then left the service. You're right that it's not discrimination - that wouldn't explain it. It's insecurity.

Also I think we've derailed the thread lol.

I think PAF is not doing anything official because of the generally negative perception of the armed forces these days and the bad economy. I mean, as long as they are building capability, who care if there's a reveal ceremony or not. Clearly, work is being done.
 

MastanKhan

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That makes sense
Look ask yourself who joins the military ?
It's people who were at the bottom of the merit in FSC/FA.

Kakool can train them to behave to a certain extent, but the fact that they don't have a scientific mind can't be changed.

Now I personally know some brilliant doctors whom I have the pleasure of working with.
One of them i well known to all, the rest you may not know.

But by in large, R&D, product development is not suited to military in her present form and structure.
Hi,

That is done BY DEFAULT all over the world militaries. Even in the US---the military only wants smart people in certain wings of the military but not as a foot soldier or a general duty officer
 

Jet_Jet

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Greetings to all.
First of all I apologize if this is not the right place for the following.
I wanted to ask two questions to the distinguished participants of this space, which are related to the engine plant of the JF-17.
- What happened to Pakistan's idea of purchasing engines directly from Russia without re-exporting them from China?
- What level of maintenance is performed on the engines in Pakistan? Is Russian intervention still required to maintain the RD-93?
 

iLION12345_1

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Greetings to all.
First of all I apologize if this is not the right place for the following.
I wanted to ask two questions to the distinguished participants of this space, which are related to the engine plant of the JF-17.
- What happened to Pakistan's idea of purchasing engines directly from Russia without re-exporting them from China?
- What level of maintenance is performed on the engines in Pakistan? Is Russian intervention still required to maintain the RD-93?
Hello.

1- to my knowledge, Pakistan has bought Engines two times for the JF-17, the first batch being through China, while the second batch of 200 engines partially through China and some directly through Russia. I may be mistaken here, but I have definitely seen some direct communication between Pakistan and Russia regarding RD-93 engines. Wether it was just plans to buy directly or if they actually went through with it, hopefully someone else can answer.

2- The engines are entirely maintained and rebuilt in Pakistan. A maintenance workshop was set up at PAC to take care of those engines, Russian intervention is minimal. If any at all.
 

mdmm

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Is above news true that
1- Pakistan got contract for RD-93 engines from Russia ?
2- The engines are entirely maintained and rebuilt in Pakistan at PAC Pakistan??
3- Pakistan has got all 25 of J-10 C jet fighters from China, delived recently??
 

Deino

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Is above news true that
1- Pakistan got contract for RD-93 engines from Russia ?
2- The engines are entirely maintained and rebuilt in Pakistan at PAC Pakistan??
3- Pakistan has got all 25 of J-10 C jet fighters from China, delived recently??


AFAIK no. 2 & 3 is wrong, No. 1 I don't know.
 

iLION12345_1

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Is above news true that
1- Pakistan got contract for RD-93 engines from Russia ?
2- The engines are entirely maintained and rebuilt in Pakistan at PAC Pakistan??
3- Pakistan has got all 25 of J-10 C jet fighters from China, delived recently??
AFAIK no. 2 & 3 is wrong, No. 1 I don't know.
1. I would say they definitely tried, wether it went through or not, I’m not sure, especially with the current situation of things. I will say this much that I’ve seen official documents pertaining to RD-93 deliveries directly from Russia myself, but again, wether this was for just discussion or actual delivery, Someone else will know better.

2. Not entirely. Keep in mind the spare parts for these engines are definitely not built in Pakistan. But their maintenance is definitely done at PAC, they have a workshop dedicated to that. my original post is not entirely accurate because I was thinking more along the lines of general maintenance, my bad.
There are very likely some things the PAC cannot do for which the engines would be sent to China or Russia. PAC does do Maintenance and rebuilds for other engines like F100s so I assume they could do a lot of the work for RD93s too, just definitely not everything.

3. Definitely not, only one batch of 6 has been received so far, the second batch has been spotted in China however.
 
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Jet_Jet

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Thank you very much everyone for the information. As you may know, there is a very real possibility that the JF-17 will arrive in my country's air force to fill the gap left by the decommissioning of our Mirage III/Finger/Dagger fleet.
It all depends on political issues, but there is great expectation that the model will arrive.
Although I have searched intensively in public access databases, I have not found any information that leads me to infer a direct delivery of engines from Russia to Pakistan. It is only repeated countless times that to date Chernyshev has delivered around 200 units of RD-93 to China, which, in turn, has re-exported a certain number of those engines to Pakistan to feed the production line of the Blocks I, II and III of the JF-17.
I had read in a post on this forum that a facility was being set up to carry out engine maintenance, but I couldn't temporarily locate the exact moment from which this type of task began to be carried out.
Finally, I wanted to appeal to you so that you can enlighten me on a question that is extremely interesting to me. I have read two things that call my attention: the useful life and TBO parameters of the RD-93 that currently operates in the PAF have been improved and the engine power is greater than 8,300 kg with post-combustion.
I understand that the RD-93 is a direct derivative of the RD-33N, which, in turn, was developed from the RD-33 SRS 2 without changing its lifetime and TBO.
I am interested in the RD-93 and would appreciate your help.
 

denel

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Yep. There are also ways to 'merge' the military into R&D. For example, you can create a sub-stream in the military academies geared for lifelong R&D.

You can recruit kids with really high acumen for technology, research, etc, and shape them into R&D Officers. So, for 2/3 of the year, they study their STEM program, and for 1/3 of the year they do their military training. They graduate as officers, but get sent to an R&D bureau headed by a R&D general and progress vertically through that structure.

However, even then, you'd have to very careful to ensure you're creating the right "balance" in culture. R&D isn't restrictive or silo'ed; it's collaborative and very inquisitive by nature. So, these officers aren't going to be like the guys in the LoC or FATA. They're not going to 'gel' with those operationally-driven officers and generals.

But at the same time, the officers who emerge from the R&D class could head up top classified programs across our nuclear, strategic weapon systems, cybersecurity, etc fields.
Bilal; here is where i would disagree - you cannot have parallel institutions - it creates imbalance which will see the best of the class leave for ever. You need a single set of educational institutions/research across all spheres. It is true some may be constrained but many you cannot stiffle. I will give you an simple example on AI - You have a very very good team of researchers - bahawalpur - if I may put ... world class; these kids and their professor are turning up papers 2nd to none in image processing and AI application. Yet, in parallel you have a defence 'TOT' from China that is AI to monitor people through facial recognition. This is the level of incompetence. What caliber of researchers are in this new org ? These kids I am mentioning, I know them well but most are leaving once they graduate - some are at Zeiss and others have gone elsewhere where their work is recognised.

You have highlighted the overall malaise that afflicts the institutions.
 

iLION12345_1

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Thank you very much everyone for the information. As you may know, there is a very real possibility that the JF-17 will arrive in my country's air force to fill the gap left by the decommissioning of our Mirage III/Finger/Dagger fleet.
It all depends on political issues, but there is great expectation that the model will arrive.
Although I have searched intensively in public access databases, I have not found any information that leads me to infer a direct delivery of engines from Russia to Pakistan. It is only repeated countless times that to date Chernyshev has delivered around 200 units of RD-93 to China, which, in turn, has re-exported a certain number of those engines to Pakistan to feed the production line of the Blocks I, II and III of the JF-17.
I had read in a post on this forum that a facility was being set up to carry out engine maintenance, but I couldn't temporarily locate the exact moment from which this type of task began to be carried out.
Finally, I wanted to appeal to you so that you can enlighten me on a question that is extremely interesting to me. I have read two things that call my attention: the useful life and TBO parameters of the RD-93 that currently operates in the PAF have been improved and the engine power is greater than 8,300 kg with post-combustion.
I understand that the RD-93 is a direct derivative of the RD-33N, which, in turn, was developed from the RD-33 SRS 2 without changing its lifetime and TBO.
I am interested in the RD-93 and would appreciate your help.
I’ve been following the Argentine political situation relating to the JF-17 pretty closely, it really does seem like a political decision at this point more than anything if they pick the fighter or not.

What you’ve read about the engine deliveries is correct, there were in fact 200 engines delivered to China which Pakistan then bought, as it stands I believe those 200 engines are all either in Pakistan or bought by Pakistan for use on Block 3s and possibly eventually on older models if they need engine replacements (or for possible exports). I don’t know wether the Myanmar models used engines from that deal of 200 or if they bought their own engines, but I believe the Nigerian exports were from that stock of 200.

Wether Pakistan has received or was meant to receive more engines from Russia is unknown and will seemingly remain so with the war. It could be that a deal was made or was in process but was never made public or got scuttled due to Indian pressure or simply due to the war.

As for the engine maintenance, I highly believe PAC does most of the general maintenance for the RD-93 engines, it is likely done in the JF-17 MRO facility at PAC.

PAC has several factories for engine rebuild and maintenance already dedicated to F100 engines from F-16s, Mirage 3 and 5 engines, K-8 engines, C-130 engines and so on, so it’s not impossible to believe that they can similarly rebuild and maintain RD-93s (again, there are probably some things they can’t do for which they would send the engines to China or Russia).

As for the historical developmental aspects of RD-93, I’ll leave that to someone else, but I think you got it’s lineage right, what exactly do you want to know about the engine?

Also, I believe if Argentina buys this fighter, they might opt for Chinese WS-13 engines instead. Argentina still has relations to uphold with the US and with Russias current state and fearing sanctions/CAASTA, Argentina might want to consider buying JF-17s with WS-13 instead, they aren’t going to save Argentina from US complaining, but at least they’re sanction proof and have better performance than the RD-93, however there have been claims that these engines aren’t ready yet. If Argentina does get the JF-17. They’ll definitely be getting Chinese ejection seats like Myanmar did.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Bilal; here is where i would disagree - you cannot have parallel institutions - it creates imbalance which will see the best of the class leave for ever. You need a single set of educational institutions/research across all spheres. It is true some may be constrained but many you cannot stiffle. I will give you an simple example on AI - You have a very very good team of researchers - bahawalpur - if I may put ... world class; these kids and their professor are turning up papers 2nd to none in image processing and AI application. Yet, in parallel you have a defence 'TOT' from China that is AI to monitor people through facial recognition. This is the level of incompetence. What caliber of researchers are in this new org ? These kids I am mentioning, I know them well but most are leaving once they graduate - some are at Zeiss and others have gone elsewhere where their work is recognised.

You have highlighted the overall malaise that afflicts the institutions.
I agree. The only scenario where I can see 'locked-down, military-run R&D' being a thing is on work that the armed forces really don't want anyone knowing they're up to. However, these days, I really don't know what's that secretive anywhere in the world.
 

SQ8

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Hi,

That is done BY DEFAULT all over the world militaries. Even in the US---the military only wants smart people in certain wings of the military but not as a foot soldier or a general duty officer
Not entirely true and some of it is a hobson’s choice due to the candidates that sign up.
Enlisted generally come from either rural or messy backgrounds but some are pretty smart focused people and those you see rise up the ranks taking the NCO routes.

I agree. The only scenario where I can see 'locked-down, military-run R&D' being a thing is on work that the armed forces really don't want anyone knowing they're up to. However, these days, I really don't know what's that secretive anywhere in the world.
That’s stupid and outdated - it’s an automatic assumption that only the military is patriotic enough to never compromise on OPSEC which history has proven to be wholly untrue.
 

denel

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Not entirely true and some of it is a hobson’s choice due to the candidates that sign up.
Enlisted generally come from either rural or messy backgrounds but some are pretty smart focused people and those you see rise up the ranks taking the NCO routes.


That’s stupid and outdated - it’s an automatic assumption that only the military is patriotic enough to never compromise on OPSEC which history has proven to be wholly untrue.
Correct assumption. As I have written before many times having been either sides of the fence. Mil was just a client - they give the requirements; we as the service providers are the SME and have the engineering behind it to make it work; sourcing of resources - soft/hard; project management, R&D is our business not theirs. This is where in Pak, there is this false notion that military knows all - this is obsurd; same notion I see peddled in Egypt. However, you go to Morocco as an example - you will not see it. Even in the US - all major contracting firms are just that contracting service providers with DoD as the procurer.
 

Jet_Jet

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I’ve been following the Argentine political situation relating to the JF-17 pretty closely, it really does seem like a political decision at this point more than anything if they pick the fighter or not.

What you’ve read about the engine deliveries is correct, there were in fact 200 engines delivered to China which Pakistan then bought, as it stands I believe those 200 engines are all either in Pakistan or bought by Pakistan for use on Block 3s and possibly eventually on older models if they need engine replacements (or for possible exports). I don’t know wether the Myanmar models used engines from that deal of 200 or if they bought their own engines, but I believe the Nigerian exports were from that stock of 200.

Wether Pakistan has received or was meant to receive more engines from Russia is unknown and will seemingly remain so with the war. It could be that a deal was made or was in process but was never made public or got scuttled due to Indian pressure or simply due to the war.

As for the engine maintenance, I highly believe PAC does most of the general maintenance for the RD-93 engines, it is likely done in the JF-17 MRO facility at PAC.

PAC has several factories for engine rebuild and maintenance already dedicated to F100 engines from F-16s, Mirage 3 and 5 engines, K-8 engines, C-130 engines and so on, so it’s not impossible to believe that they can similarly rebuild and maintain RD-93s (again, there are probably some things they can’t do for which they would send the engines to China or Russia).

As for the historical developmental aspects of RD-93, I’ll leave that to someone else, but I think you got it’s lineage right, what exactly do you want to know about the engine?

Also, I believe if Argentina buys this fighter, they might opt for Chinese WS-13 engines instead. Argentina still has relations to uphold with the US and with Russias current state and fearing sanctions/CAASTA, Argentina might want to consider buying JF-17s with WS-13 instead, they aren’t going to save Argentina from US complaining, but at least they’re sanction proof and have better performance than the RD-93, however there have been claims that these engines aren’t ready yet. If Argentina does get the JF-17. They’ll definitely be getting Chinese ejection seats like Myanmar did.
First of all, thank you very much for your kindness in answering. Certainly, the incorporation of the JF-17 has become a political issue given the problems that the ruling coalition faces today and the little or no help it receives from the opposition parties and coalition. Next year is an election year in Argentina, and it is almost a fact that Peronism is not going to prolong its administration for four more years. Although the acquisition of a defense system such as the JF-17 is approved in our 2022 budget law, if the negotiation with Pakistan and China is not formalized this year, it will be difficult to achieve anything in 2023. The issue would be delegated to the coalition that ultimately wins the 2023 elections, and that coalition would not align itself with China or Pakistan, but with the US. In such a case, the system that could reach the FAA (Argentine Air Force) could be the F-16. Specifically, according to the offer that the US has already made to Argentina, it would be the F-16A/B MLU that the Danish Air Force operates today.

Talking about ws-13, you are correct again. As far as I have had the opportunity to access information from official sources, FAA personnel have received details on the JF-17 (most of which have been provided on the visit to China and Pakistan), have evaluated it and also is thoroughly investigating the details regarding the WS-13 prior to placing an order for them. I know that conversations have been held with Chinese personnel, who have provided some information about WS-13, but I do not know exactly what version is being offered. As far as I understand, the WS-13 has between three and four versions, one of which appears to be called the WS-19. As you say, the choice of WS-13 has a lot to do with the fear of US sanctions, but it also has to do with the fact that Argentina does not want more vetoes from England in the acquisition of material for the FAA. You know what happened to the KC-390, the Gripen NG and more recently the FA-50.

Regarding the RD-93, I need to know about its TBO and its useful life, since the information that comes out of UEC does not correspond to what I have been able to read from sources in Pakistan. It would seem that the time between revisions has been prolonged and that its useful life is greater than 2,000 hours. If that progress has been made, it is not clear to me if it was achieved in Pakistan or if the improvements have been made by Klimov. On the other hand, the power of the engine seems to have changed, although I have read that the RD-93, unlike the RD-33 SRS 2, has an emergency mode similar to the one used in the RD-33K RD-33MK.
 

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