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Is Pakistan Better Off Industrially (and More Diverse in Industrial Production) Compared to Bangladesh?

Indos

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BTW Sudirman CBD looks beautiful. Where do people walk and get lunch from? Are the cafeteria's inside the buildings?
There are several CBD in Jakarta, beside Sudirman, Central Jakarta, there are 2 in Kuningan, South Jakarta. There is side walk there and there is free bus as well which circling the areas but we see none in the video since it was captured in 2020 during Pandemic time.

Yup there is Cafetaria in my building when I was working in that area, there is also some kind of cheap food restaurant run by micro business outside the office building near my building, still in the CBD complex though.

There is Mushola (Small Mosque inside the building) as well, during Jumah prayer we use parking park for pray, but some office building in Jakarta has dedicated Mosque, like entire or half floor for praying. Government office usually make dedicated Mosques inside their building complex, but it is not difficult to find Mosques in Jakarta. I also see at least one office building in South Jakarta make a real mosque (quite big) near their office building.
 

Bilal9

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There are several CBD in Jakarta, beside Sudirman, Central Jakarta, there are 2 in Kuningan, South Jakarta. There is side walk there and there is free bus as well which circling the areas but we see none in the video since it was captured in 2020 during Pandemic time.

Yup there is Cafetaria in my building when I was working in that area, there is also some kind of cheap food restaurant run by micro business outside the office building near my building, still in the CBD complex though.

There is Mushola (Small Mosque inside the building) as well, during Jumah prayer we use parking park for pray, but some office building in Jakarta has dedicated Mosque, like entire or half floor for praying. Government office usually make dedicated Mosques inside their building complex, but it is not difficult to find Mosques in Jakarta. I also see at least one office building in South Jakarta make a real mosque (quite big) near their office building.
Interesting tidbits brother, Jakarta is at the top of my list to visit someday, if we all can survive this Covid curse.

I have many Indonesian friends in LA, they have told me many interesting things just like you did. Have to brush up on my Bahasa Indonesia though. :-)
 

Indos

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Interesting tidbits brother, Jakarta is at the top of my list to visit someday, if we all can survive this Covid curse.

I have many Indonesian friends in LA, they have told me many interesting things just like you did. Have to brush up on my Bahasa Indonesia though. :-)
You will survive in Jakarta using English as communication language
 

Paul2

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Basically large amount of Indonesian Manufacturing Output is made by this small scale business. The extensive research on Indonesia manufacturing has been made by Minister of Planning and with the support of World Bank. Extensive report and it also touch high technology industry like aerospace sector.

Not surprising since according to our Finance Minister 60 % of Indonesian GDP comes from micro, small, and medium size companies. We have had economic census several years ago and this is why our Finance ministry can know detail of businesses in Indonesia. Basically I also never work in large companies ( what I mean is working as employee). My business should also be considered as micro level in service industry.

My first office (I am an employee) after I graduated from university is actually in Sudirman CBD ( and I consider it as micro/small business) and many small scale business are there since office building in Jakarta is open to many tenant, big, medium, and small.


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For micro scale manufacturing in Indonesia, we can see many goods are made by them like furniture, customized furniture, retrofit of expensive bed and chairs, customized goods using aluminum and steels, etc
Small business manufacturing can't exist if it can't make money. What I can say about Pakistanis, I feel they are just more tenacious, and ready doing really low profit businesses.

These people making autoparts are likely making even less money than people who were doing shanzhai electronics around 2008-2012.

One benefit having these small artisanal factories is that it makes it easy to make complex products for other small businesses: Want some fancy customised parts in low volume? These people would be the only ones who will make them. Big factories will not bother with with small orders, and retooling for them.

What allowed small factories to thrive around 2008-2012 in China was that the global industry was down after GFC, and bigger factories went out of business. So, they were the only ones left, and got the orders.
 

Saiful Islam

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Pakistans economy will naturally be more diverse owing to it's topography, that's mountains, deserts, plains, hot, cold etc.

It's not rocket science.
 

bluesky

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@Bilal9, please watch the picture of our cottage industry items. It is as usual made for household uses. In the case of Pakistan, the pictures you have sent show that the products are related to industries.

So, there is a gulf of difference. Once Pakistan comes back on track, it is possible that these small supporting workshops will play a crucial role for that country's rapid industrialization.

Meanwhile, we will be produciong more and more garments and not industrial goods.
 

Big_bud

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Guys I view industrial small scale production all the time on different video platforms in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, and IMHO I'd say Pakistan has a far superior industrial basis than Bangladesh on small scale Industrial sector (although a bit backdated in technology but very self-sustaining nonetheless).

The basis of economical production In small scale sector are all local raw materials, sometimes recycled. I will highlight some videos here for you all to see,

It is my belief that you will realize how active/productive Pakistani small-scale Industrial sector is and how we in Bangladesh can collaborate with that sector in Pakistan to improve ours - maybe using JV's and/or employing Pakistani machinery and experts who are in a unique position to help us.

The tech used is what is termed 'appropriate technology' whose main advantage is extreme low overhead and economical methods to make products of "high enough" and "acceptable" quality in remote areas, where low investment and backdated technology are advantages, not barriers to production.

Making products using automation and in super clean conditions like Walton often entail high cost. I have immense respect for these hard-working Mehnati folks in Pakistan who work in demanding conditions to earn a living. I guess some introduction to safety regimes (like covers for rollers and gears and shoes for workers who handle molten metal) would not hurt in some cases.






Industrialisation is dependent on several factors. Both Bangladesh & Pakistan must be having much more potential then what they are currently producing. In Pakistan Industrialisation and Industries have been moving on a backwards trajectory for some time now. The reason being:
1. Law & order (Too much terrorism since 2001-2015) Investor confidence shattered. Lots of foreign investment went to other countries. Lots of local investors moved abroad.
2. Low ease of doing business (Unstable, ever changing economic and industrial policies. Ease of business index has greatly improved recently under IK govt.)
3. Expensive electricity, gas & water. ( This is perhaps the most important point which is affecting our long term economic growth. No mega dam was made in past 4 decades seriously affecting our water security and jacking up electricity prices, there is a shortage of gas and there might be serious water shortage in coming years as well. Same can be said for oil & gas exploration. Successive corrupt governments did not focus on long term projects, they focussed on short term projects which made us economically weak and debt ridden.)
4. There is direct access to China There is no point manufacturing a lot of things when they are already available at cheap rates from China. This means that we end up trading are dollars which are already scarce for even very basic, little commodities. But overall, neighbouring China is a blessing since China is able to offer anything at most competitive price. If we can value add and make a better product out of Chinese raw materials, we can win big time. However unfortunately currently we are just importing most of the stuff)
5. Corruption & money laundering: Most politicians and ruling elites are interested in making easy money. The corruption money ends up in offshore accounts. Some of it is then laundered back into the country, however is never invested in anything productive.
6. The curse of real estate: If in any country real estate prices are rising rapidly but everything else is stagnant, it is a big indicator that industry of that country is at a halt. All money is being parked in the real estate. Often, there is more artificially inflated real-estate in the country then there could be demand of. In Pakistan real estate is the only booming business, which tells you the sad affair of the economy.

However potential of Pakistan is great. The minds we have available here are top notch. If we want to get something done, we can get it done. In 70s though our industry was booming, Chinese businessmen were coming to Pakistan to inspect our industrial growth. We were the fastest growing country in the region and then we kept going down the rabbit hole! Circular debt is the biggest problem these days. debt cannot be paid of without reducing imports and increasing exports. However to do that we need to first have a lot of money to build dams and find more gas & oil reserves. If we take loans to fund these projects, it becomes a bit counter productive because IMF would slap more levies on the electricity, offsetting the benefit. Imran Khan is trying to navigate through that, he is trying to reduce more loans, pay off previous ones, attract investment and improve domestic production. However so far everything has been a challenge, covid closed everything, fuel prices are going up, opposition is giving a tough time, media is often biased, mafias from political elites and bureaucracy have been trying their best to create hurdles and he has not got absolute majority either to speed up law making/ approving bills in the parliament.
 
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Bilal9

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Industrialisation is dependent on several factors. Both Bangladesh & Pakistan must be having much more potential then what they are currently producing. In Pakistan Industrialisation and Industries have been moving on a backwards trajectory for some time now. The reason being:
1. Law & order (Too much terrorism since 2001-2015) Investor confidence shattered. Lots of foreign investment went to other countries. Lots of local investors moved abroad.
2. Low ease of doing business (Unstable, ever changing economic and industrial policies. Ease of business index has greatly improved recently under IK govt.)
3. Expensive electricity, gas & water. ( This is perhaps the most important point which is affecting our long term economic growth. No mega dam was made in past 4 decades seriously affecting our water security and jacking up electricity prices, there is a shortage of gas and there might be serious water shortage in coming years as well. Same can be said for oil & gas exploration. Successive corrupt governments did not focus on long term projects, they focussed on short term projects which made us economically weak and debt ridden.)
4. There is direct access to China There is no point manufacturing a lot of things when they are already available at cheap rates from China. This means that we end up trading are dollars which are already scarce for even very basic, little commodities. But overall, neighbouring China is a blessing since China is able to offer anything at most competitive price. If we can value add and make a better product out of Chinese raw materials, we can win big time. However unfortunately currently we are just importing most of the stuff)
5. Corruption & money laundering: Most politicians and ruling elites are interested in making easy money. The corruption money ends up in offshore accounts. Some of it is then laundered back into the country, however is never invested in anything productive.
6. The curse of real estate: If in any country real estate prices are rising rapidly but everything else is stagnant, it is a big indicator that industry of that country is at a halt. All money is being parked in the real estate. Often, there is more artificially inflated real-estate in the country then there could be demand of. In Pakistan real estate is the only booming business, which tells you the sad affair of the economy.

However potential of Pakistan is great. The minds we have available here are top notch. If we want to get something done, we can get it done. In 70s though our industry was booming, Chinese businessmen were coming to Pakistan to inspect our industrial growth. We were the fastest growing country in the region and then we kept going down the rabbit hole! Circular debt is the biggest problem these days. debt cannot be paid of without reducing imports and increasing exports. However to do that we need to first have a lot of money to build dams and find more gas & oil reserves. If we take loans to fund these projects, it becomes a bit counter productive because IMF would slap more levies on the electricity, offsetting the benefit. Imran Khan is trying to navigate through that, he is trying to reduce more loans, pay off previous ones, attract investment and improve domestic production. However so far everything has been a challenge, covid closed everything, fuel prices are going up, opposition is giving a tough time, media is often biased, mafias from political elites and bureaucracy have been trying their best to create hurdles and he has not got absolute majority either to speed up law making/ approving bills in the parliament.
All good points brother, in Bangladesh despite natural calamities we are blessed not to have terrorism issues, multi-ethnic conflict issues and generally law and order being stable for the last ten years.

However we also had our share of chori by corrupt leaders (still going on) and most of same issues you mentioned except number 3.

3. Expensive electricity, gas & water. ( This is perhaps the most important point which is affecting our long term economic growth. No mega dam was made in past 4 decades seriously affecting our water security and jacking up electricity prices, there is a shortage of gas and there might be serious water shortage in coming years as well. Same can be said for oil & gas exploration. Successive corrupt governments did not focus on long term projects, they focussed on short term projects which made us economically weak and debt ridden.)
This will not hold Pakistan back forever, because I hear Imran Saab has planned new power investments. Pakistan is a natural for Hydel power generation, we have had only one in the Hill tracts. Pakistan also has far more land (like India) to set up wind farms and solar farms. So I believe once things fall into place, power Insha-Allah will not be a problem in Pakistan. In California's desert areas, wind farms and solar farms are ubiquitous, any visitor will notice them.

This is near Palm Springs in the desert outside of Los Angeles. The temperature in this area in the daytime exceeds 110 degrees F (43 degrees C). I am sure Balochistan or even Sindh is not very different...





So - wind farms in the South and Hydel power in the North, there is an ideal solution right there. Add to that solar (both photovoltaic and focused solar thermal energy) and you're golden.

Focused Energy solar thermal technology could be very usable in Pakistan (That has been proven in multiple hot desert countries like Spain) - which is solar reflected energy focused to a central thermal tower with super hot molten salt energy storage that can produce energy both during day and night.

Such plants have been introduced in the Thar desert in India as well, if you see the list of power stations in the second link below.



The details are here,


 
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Bilal9

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@Bilal9, please watch the picture of our cottage industry items. It is as usual made for household uses. In the case of Pakistan, the pictures you have sent show that the products are related to industries.

So, there is a gulf of difference. Once Pakistan comes back on track, it is possible that these small supporting workshops will play a crucial role for that country's rapid industrialization.

Meanwhile, we will be producing more and more garments and not industrial goods.
Exactly - @bluesky bhai, that is why I opened this thread, to make sure Bangladeshis know the position we are in. Basic items ARE produced in Pakistan at a lower cost and even if slowly, they have something to fall back on. Us Bangladeshis, the first thing we think of is look to India to import from them. We have no in-built self-sufficinecy in building basic goods. This has been your narrative for a while but I believe we have to make the younger Bangladeshis in PDF realize the situation we are in.

But you and I have to admit that lately lots of cottage industries are being set up on our side of the border (some even by Indians), because the customers here in Bangladesh have increased buying power nowadays.

I have some examples. Here is NOAH brand pressure cooker being made in Saidpur, Northern Bangladesh. This is very close to the Bihar Border.

You can see that aluminum alloy sheet to make deep-drawn pressure cooker pan is imported (guessing from India). Whereas Pakistanis melt their own aluminum into thick plates and then thin the plates to sheets in older roller presses. Pakistan is more self-sufficient in raw material and will have cost advantage because of it.

SAIDPUR ALUMINIUM WORKS - NOAH Brand pressure cooker




This is ROYALEX METAL non-stick pan line. Same story with raw material. And factories are not safe. Any occupational safety health guy ( we call OSHA inspector in USA) will have a heart attack walking through these factories.
 
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Bilal9

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I think Car manufacturing is also better in PK. Whats surprising is 150-200K cars are are sold in Pakistan each year while its only 15-30K in BD while almost having the same population.
Bangladesh tax on re-conditioned cars is 300%. On new luxury cars is 800%. This is true. No wonder sales are slow.

Pakistan VAT on cars must be lower then?
 

bluesky

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I have some examples. Here is NOAH brand pressure cooker made in Saidpur. Northern Bangladesh.

You can see that aluminum alloy sheet to make deep-drawn pressure cooker pan is imported (guessing from India). Whereas Pakistanis melt their own aluminum and thin the plates to sheets in older roller presses. Pakistan is more self-sufficient in raw material and will have cost advantage because of it.
It is no issue if India produces a few parts of a machine/ pressure cooker and we import them to assemble the finished products here in BD. Things are always like this in every country, even in Japan. It is always the give and take.

By the way, is there any factory to produce rice cookers in BD? Let me tell you about a rice cooker that I took with me to BD for use in our parental home in the 1980s. My younger brother was still using it in 2016.

I bought a China-made rice cooker in BD about five years ago and I was thinking to throw it away in the garbage after the use of only two years. The quality is so bad that the boiled rice sticks to the bottom.

I hope BD factories, including Walton, strive to produce quality rice cookers and other kitchen wares in the country. The demands for these items will keep on increasing for many years to come as an ample quantity of electricity will gradually reach every house, rich, middle class, or poor, within a few years.

Here in Japan, I see families throw away good condition kitchen wares, clothing, beds, and others only after a few years of use. They say it is good for economic cycling. Discard the old ones and buy new ones. It creates jobs.

I then remember the situation in our Golden Bangladesh!!
 

RPK

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Ha ha ha LOL. I KNEW the importer. :lol:

He took action before the food authority even knew. His reputation in the market is not something he can play with.

Indian Banyas can do no wrong. :lol:

Too many cases like this RPK-ji, too many....

Apparently dhokeybaaj banyas in your country value ill-gotten profit far more than your idealistic naivete....
How incompetent your authorities, So imposter is your importer. You can easily ban or put fine on manufactures which not complies for law, without that you are crying here. you talking like Bangladesh is one of the Indian state, not like separate country Lol
 

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