• Saturday, December 15, 2018

Is it really a problem?

Discussion in 'Pakistani Siasat' started by Jango, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. Jango

    Jango MODERATOR

    Messages:
    15,819
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Ratings:
    +22 / 17,545 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    In light of the recent reports that the Returning officer is asking potential candidates for elections some religious verses such as Ayat Al Kursi and Duay Qanoot etc.

    THis is supposedly in order to validate that a person is of good Islamic character in accordance with article 62 and 63 (which I personally think are absolutely BS).

    This has kicked up a big debate in TV shows, and one is going on in Hamir Mir's show.

    So what do you folks think, is it a right thing?

    I personally believe yes. Yes, the articles in law might be BS and kind of stupid, but as long as they are there, they should be implemented. If a person is going to contest elections, he has to be of good character and knowing Islamic injunctions...and one of the few simple and short ways is to ask him these things. So what is the harm? Asking Islamic things isn't a crime is it?

    BTW, they also ask you this stuff in ISSB!

    Comments please. This isn't a religious thread, rather a thread which focuses on the how to implement the constitution, and whether this is the right way.

    @Awesome, @Aeronaut, @Leader, @muse, @Oscar, @Rafael, @Emmie, @haviZsultan...

    I have also added a poll.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  2. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

    Messages:
    13,023
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Ratings:
    +0 / 12,514 / -0
    Excellent - Pakistanis are not about to give up on Islamism - Character is associated with the Ayat you may or may not know - Once again notice what criteria are being used - You can murder, e a defaulter, a thief, a wife beater, a pederast, but so long as recite Ayat, you are golden - It's sad but reap as you sow, this is a law of the universe, there is no getting away from it.
     
  3. KingMamba

    KingMamba ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    12,335
    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Ratings:
    +11 / 19,342 / -3
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United States
  4. Leader

    Leader ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    29,164
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Ratings:
    +27 / 39,536 / -18
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    thats what the law says, just a formality !!
     
  5. Ziras

    Ziras FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,808
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Ratings:
    +0 / 14,959 / -0
    The country was formed on Islamic idiology so that muslims can freely practice their ISlamic faith...other than that there waqs no need of making Pakistan or still isnt...We can all happily re-join india and apologize maha bharta for our fore fathers idiotic mistake...

    But if we dont want to do that we do need to stick to our idiology and for that we do need to verify that the MUSLIM candidates know "Jack" about islam...or they can stand from dedicated Minority seats...

    One very small financial benifit of sticking to islamic ideology in country's legislation was Non compound interest banking...Until the time banks did not issue compound interest credit cards and loans..People were far beter off and economy in far better shape than it is now when atleast for banks the Islamic code is waved off and they issue credit cards with compound interes and loans with Gynormous APR..
    So there you go...Islamic ideology isnt bad at all if used in the right way..and to use it in the rihjt way the law makers need to know about Islam hence the tets by Election commission...
     
  6. saiyan0321

    saiyan0321 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    6,081
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Ratings:
    +56 / 8,216 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Pakistan is an ISLAMIC REPUBLIC. It is must for us for our leader to be a muslim. If these people are contesting in elections then they must know about Islam.... Let me give you some examples.

    One such case was recorded by TV channels when Owais Muzaffar Tappi, PPP candidate for a Sindh Assembly seat and President Asif Ali Zardari’s close aide, was asked about the number of Namaz one is required to offer in a day. He took a couple of seconds to tell the number of ‘rakats’ in Fajr prayers.

    One of the candidate said that knowledge of Islam is not good enough to judge one,s faith... So technically you are a muslim even though you dont know How many Farz or nafal are their in namaz or How many Alhami Kitabi Came to be and to whom were they given.

    One of the candidate of Jamat e islami dcould not recite Dua Kanoot according to media.

    One of the Candidates was asked recite the First kalma and he failed at it. I dont know how buts in new.

    this is the article part
    The article 62 of the constitution explains the criterion of “qualifications for member of Majlis-i-Shoora (parliament)” and its clause (e) reads: “He has adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practices obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins.



    You are electing to be our future leaders and you dont even know Surah,s ,Kalma,s and Namaz then how can you be a muslim??
     
  7. Not Sure

    Not Sure BANNED

    Messages:
    1,642
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,490 / -3
    Hi Muse,

    Do you not think that any leader in (Islamic Republic of) Pakistan, where 97% of the population is Muslim, shall have all the knowledge of Islam that one can gather? I would think it should be made imperative so that the leaders are able to understand the character, and emotions of the people they are supposed to lead, and so that the leader will be in a better position to judge the demands and desires of his/her followers.

    It does not matter whether that leader is a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian or a Hindu. What really matters is that that leader understands where the sensitivity of the people lies and how to lead them in the right direction.

    I am not very much aware of the laws in Pakistan, but I suppose they are a bit Islamic in nature, and then we saw Justice Bhagwan Das becoming the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (whatever be the circumstances, he still was a senior judge). If I am right in thinking that Pakistani laws have elements of Islamic laws in them, then Justice Bhagwan Das sure must have mastered them.

    In a country based on religion, I would suppose such a prerequisite in leading the people is not out of place.



    Then again... never been to that country, nor followed that religion, so of course you must know better.

    Just felt the need to wager my 2 cents.
     
  8. Ziras

    Ziras FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,808
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Ratings:
    +0 / 14,959 / -0
    save for the burgers of Large cities...the ultra rich land lords of Rural areas and some lost folks..The majority of the population of Pakistan still finds guidence from Islam and wants a life as per Islamic values if not Islamic Laws...
    If the Rulers dont know tha basics of Islam they cannot represent the very people they are ruling..its as simple as that.
     
  9. Jango

    Jango MODERATOR

    Messages:
    15,819
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Ratings:
    +22 / 17,545 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    I kind of agree with you in principle. That is why I mentioned in the OP that this law is very absurd to begin with. Who can or who cannot judge somebodys islamic character? But then again, it is in the law and you have to follow it as long as it is there.

    Secondly, this is one of the barometers. The law does explicity say that a person should be aware of Islamic teachings and be of good moral character.. So having a good moral character means that you shouldnt be a thief, plunderer or anything you mentioned. So there you have another prerequisite that prohibits you from being a criminal and contesting election, in conjunction with the Islamic teaching article.
    @Argus Panoptes, your comments please...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  10. uahmed

    uahmed FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Ratings:
    +0 / 42 / -0
    If this is really going on, it is just simply stupid. There is a time and place for everything. Asking Ayat-ul-Kursi while filing nomination papers is a wrong question at wrong time.

    This reminds me of an incident: When I was in engineering, there used to be a person who would take our final viva and those carried important marks towards degree. In one of such viva, the person asked me to recite Dua-i-Kanoot. It was a shock for me at the time (had no problem reciting it but we did not prepare a whole year to be judged on that) but no one could dare object on his methods. In that case, he was basically hiding his incompetence under the guise of religion.

    The trouble with such type of cases is that even objective criticism on such things becomes difficult because of the associated sentiments. One major problem is 'Where do you draw the line?'. Can a returning officer ask the candidate about 'Bibi Fatima tul Zehra ka Mojza' and declare someone ineligible on getting an unsatisfactory answer? Who is going to draw up the syllabus?
     
  11. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

    Messages:
    13,023
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Ratings:
    +0 / 12,514 / -0
    Thank you your post, but some clarification is necessary - Pakistan is not, never was, a country based on religion - it is not ISLAMISTAN, it is Pakistan, a homeland for any Muslim who would made it theirs. But to the larger issue, and this is of "Tests of Outward Religiosity"

    I would suggest that if we were talking about ISLAMISTAN, then these kinds of "tests" may have been thought of as valid, however, what we ought to be testing for are not Ayat but character displayed in deeds, is the individual a Criminal, are his or her academic credentials valid, is he or she a tax payer, a loan defaulter and such, not outward displays of religiosity.
     
  12. Argus Panoptes

    Argus Panoptes BANNED

    Messages:
    4,065
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Ratings:
    +0 / 3,462 / -0
    In order to think about this, let us first start with two basic definitions:

    1. What is "awareness" of Islamic teachings, and does it automatically imply actively practicing those teachings? As a crude example, I may be "aware" that a muslim prays five times a day, but does it mean that I must be seen in the masjid five times a day to stand in an election? What if I pray at home, or not at all? How much awareness must be practiced and why?

    2. What is "good moral character", and how can it be judged with or without the use of #1 above? Morality is different than the practice of a religion, and in this context we need to be sure whether we mean this requirement to be in addition to #1, and if so, why? After all, a good Muslim would be moral by definition too. So what is the difference that needs good morals as an added requirement?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  13. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

    Messages:
    13,023
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Ratings:
    +0 / 12,514 / -0

    Look, is a TB who has behead and skinned Pakistani soldiers, also of "good moral character" based on the fact that he or she can recite some Ayat?? Yes or NO, please - it will help you, it will clarify the issue - Are LeJ then not of "good moral character" ????? And those who attack and burn Churches????

    So why is this test been placed in the law? The same reason blasphemy laws are in place, because they form the foundations of an exclusivist idea of a religion based state - because it is fundamental to building a state in which the confession of the citizen is the primary criteria for that citizenship -- In Afghanistan, the TB made beards mandatory for adult males, this too was a religious test, and of course if you could not grow a full beard you were not really a Muslim, was it a good idea?? It was the law and what it did was marginalize the Hazara, was that a good idea??

    Let peoples relationship with their confession be one in which the state does not interfere in.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  14. Mech

    Mech BANNED

    Messages:
    3,161
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Ratings:
    +0 / 3,476 / -6
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    Slovenia
    This is why i always maintain that @Zarvan is the best possible candidate for Pakistani PM.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  15. saiyan0321

    saiyan0321 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    6,081
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Ratings:
    +56 / 8,216 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    I believe that These questions are important and should be asked among the questions judging them. In no way it should be just these questions but they should be among the questions asked when receiving the forms. You should ask what cases did you have on you? what charges were placed upon you? where did you get you degree from? Although these questions are part of teh forms they should also be asked.

    However i like that these questions were given weight too. How someone failed to recite the kalma,s i will never know.

    I guess the reason why they didnt ask was bcz it was all on their forms about charges and degree information. Remember these forms are to be scrutinized personally too.