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Is China a really good friend of Pakistan? Excellent analysis

Indus Pakistan

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If you see what China has done for Pakistan, it is FAR FAR more than what any other nation has done for another country EVER. We can never thank China enough.
Honestly my friend China has indirectly cost Pakistan Kashmir. Pakistan has paid a very hefty price for this 'friendship' [countries don't have friends but interests] and I just hope over time the return is greater then the cost.

I won't go into the detail what that hefty cost has been - if you want me to explain just tag me. But fact is people think the alliance with USA has cost Pakistan the most. Nope, China has cost the most followed by USA.
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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Honestly my friend China has indirectly cost Pakistan Kashmir. Pakistan has paid a very hefty price for this 'friendship' [countries don't have friends but interests] and I just hope over time the return is greater then the cost.

I won't go into the detail what that hefty cost has been - if you want me to explain just tag me. But fact is people think the alliance with USA has cost Pakistan the most. Nope, China has cost the most followed by USA.



Why do you say that bro?
 

Indus Pakistan

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Why do you say that bro?
Okay hear me out. During the cold war the west regarded USSR as the primary threat. The threat was overhyped but fact is America was paranoid about Red Russia. As long as you had a border or a angle on USSR you were hot commodity and could turn that into dollars just by signing up with Uncle Sam. This is exactly what a bankrupt Pakistan did in 1950s. And before you know it the largest military and economic aid flow began to Pakistan.

  • PAF was made into a mighty airforce with decade free of cost. US made state of the art fighters liuke F104-Starfighters arrived, 100s of Sabres, radars, new airbases and training of pilots all free of cost.

  • PAk army was turned into a modern mechanized army from just a left over of WW2 by recieving Patton tanks, artillery and entire new divisions were raised. New cantoments like Karian were built all again free of cost. Lot of the construction was done by US Army Corp of Engineers.

  • Billions poured into new projects for roads, dams [think Mangla, think Tarbela, think Warsak], power lines and a brand new shiny capital called Islamabad. This was greater in real terms then CPEC today.

  • Industry recieved huge input and began flourishing fueled by US dollar inpouts. Education institutes were laid like SUPARCO etc and the nurseries that would produce the nuclear talent for future nuke programme under US 'Atoms for Peace' programme.
All this was premised on opposition to the Red threat - primarily USSR but secondarily included China. While this was going on India was milching the Red Russkies. However when China tangled with India and then thrashed them the Americans got rattled. The Chinese never intended to invade India but New Delhi used the American paranoia to it advantage.

Dr Moeed mentions this. Not many people know this but as China was giving the Indians thrashing the rattled West launched one of the largest military aid programmes in history free of cost. Massive scale aid poured in emergency mode to 'save India' from Red Chinese. It included billions of dollars, tanks, artillery.

To give you some examples. India recieved huge number of British Centurion tanks and Fench Amx tanks - the former probably the best tank of the era and superior to the Patton. Hawker Huntera and Gnats also arrived in huge numbers.

This massive arming of india alarmed Pakistan which referanced that these platforms would be used against it and not the Chinese in the high Tibetan pleateu. Sure enough when Pakistan attacked in 1965 it ran into the very arms the west had gifted India as protecton from Red China.

Again as Dr Moeed mentions people and particularly Indians always point to Pakistan as being the biggest recipient of western aid. Truth is India has recieved far greater aid then Pakistan from USA.

Furthermore when Pakistan attacked India in 1965 USA was not happy precisely because of the Chinese factor. Because of the paranoia of the Reds the Americans did not want India to be weakened as in their estimation it could fall victim to Red China.

All that aid they provided to India after 1962 was to address the threat from Red China and thus were not too happy to see all the aid they had given to Pakistan be used to weaken India. The driver behind this all was the China factor.

Of course we can't blame Chinese for this. Our leaders should have calculated the strategic consequences and worked up all the possible scenarios to address this. A nuanced policy should have been developed to handle this complicated dynamic.

Summary: line. Firstly without China factor India would not have recieved the massive arms supply which was used to blunt Pakistan in 1965. Secondly without China factor I doubt USA would have taken such harsh action as sanctioning supplies to Pakistan which it did because it did not want India to be weakened.

 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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Okay hear me out. During the cold war the west regarded USSR as the primary threat. The threat was overhyped but fact is America was paranoid about Red Russia. As long as you had a border or a angle on USSR you were hot commodity and could turn that into dollars just by signing up with Uncle Sam. This is exactly what a bankrupt Pakistan did in 1950s. And before you know it the largest military and economic aid flow began to Pakistan.

  • PAF was made into a mighty airforce with decade free of cost. US made state of the art fighters liuke F104-Starfighters arrived, 100s of Sabres, radars, new airbases and training of pilots all free of cost.

  • PAk army was turned into a modern mechanized army from just a left over of WW2 by recieving Patton tanks, artillery and entire new divisions were raised. New cantoments like Karian were built all again free of cost. Lot of the construction was done by US Army Corp of Engineers.

  • Billions poured into new projects for roads, dams [think Mangla, think Tarbela, think Warsak], power lines and a brand new shiny capital called Islamabad. This was greater in real terms then CPEC today.

  • Industry recieved huge input and began flourishing fueled by US dollar inpouts. Education institutes were laid like SUPARCO etc and the nurseries that would produce the nuclear talent for future nuke programme under US 'Atoms for Peace' programme.
All this was premised on opposition to the Red threat - primarily USSR but secondarily included China. While this was going on India was milching the Red Russkies. However when China tangled with India and then thrashed them the Americans got rattled. The Chinese never intended to invade India but New Delhi used the American paranoia to it advantage.

Dr Moeed mentions this. Not many people know this but as China was giving the Indians thrashing the rattled West launched one of the largest military aid programmes in history free of cost. Massive scale aid poured in emergency mode to 'save India' from Red Chinese. It included billions of dollars, tanks, artillery.

To give you some examples. India recieved huge number of British Centurion tanks and Fench Amx tanks - the former probably the best tank of the era and superior to the Patton. Hawker Huntera and Gnats also arrived in huge numbers.

This massive arming of india alarmed Pakistan which referanced that these platforms would be used against it and not the Chinese in the high Tibetan pleateu. Sure enough when Pakistan attacked in 1965 it ran into the very arms the west had gifted India as protecton from Red China.

Again as Dr Moeed mentions people and particularly Indians always point to Pakistan as being the biggest recipient of western aid. Truth is India has recieved far greater aid then Pakistan from USA.

Furthermore when Pakistan attacked India in 1965 USA was not happy precisely because of the Chinese factor. Because of the paranoia of the Reds the Americans did not want India to be weakened as in their estimation it could fall victim to Red China.

All that aid they provided to India after 1962 was to address the threat from Red China and thus were not too happy to see all the aid they had given to Pakistan be used to weaken India. The driver behind this all was the China factor.

Of course we can't blame Chinese for this. Our leaders should have calculated the strategic consequences and worked up all the possible scenarios to address this. A nuanced policy should have been developed to handle this complicated dynamic.

Summary: line. Firstly without China factor India would not have recieved the massive arms supply which was used to blunt Pakistan in 1965. Secondly without China factor I doubt USA would have taken such harsh action as sanctioning supplies to Pakistan which it did because it did not want India to be weakened.






To some extent I agree with you but does that not also imply that without Western assistance, the indians cannot even take on Pakistan let alone China?
 

Indus Pakistan

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To some extent I agree with you but does that not also imply that without Western assistance, the indians cannot even take on Pakistan let alone China?
Indeed although to prevail the Indians need the following conditions -

  • 10s of milliions Bengalis
  • fight Pakistan in 'away game'
These two factors converged in 1971 and look what happened.
 

araz

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If you see what China has done for Pakistan, it is FAR FAR more than what any other nation has done for another country EVER. We can never thank China enough.
And what about what we have done for China. A lot of what Chinese developments are , is because of critical input from us. However the scale is balanced massively in Chinese favour. We should be grateful but this is a symbiotic relationship. Because of the nature of Pakistani development and its tendency to go begging the world over our role has been less than the Chinese role. But nothing has been given to us without keeping long term Chinese interests in mind.
 

aziqbal

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If you see what China has done for Pakistan, it is FAR FAR more than what any other nation has done for another country EVER. We can never thank China enough.

and this is why Pakistan as a nation in its history has never developed

too many Pakistanis start boot licking and become sub-servant to anyone know shows them a few dollars

if Pakistan never facilitated the Nixon visit to China in 1972 China would never have enjoyed the economic boom of the 1980s which lead to the opening up and reforming policies and special economic zones in 1990s

because of that they were allowed into the WTO in 2000

the 1972 visit was actually planned in 1971 when Henry Kissinger visited Pakistan
 

GumNaam

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Pakistanis really REALLY REALLY need to get outta this "we must have a powerful, protective friend to adopt and baby sit us" mindset. it is nothing more than that suppressed mindset that we must have an uber molvi or gaddi nasheen pir or a big vadera or jageerdaar family to follow in return for them protecting us.

Pakistan & China are very close due to historical ties, understanding of each other's security concerns and coinciding strategic objectives. simple as that. China ain't gonna spoon feed us people, and they SHOULDN'T spoon feed us! grow the hell up!
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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Pakistanis really REALLY REALLY need to get outta this "we must have a powerful, protective friend to adopt and baby sit us" mindset. it is nothing more than that suppressed mindset that we must have an uber molvi or gaddi nasheen pir or a big vadera or jageerdaar family to follow in return for them protecting us.

Pakistan & China are very close due to historical ties, understanding of each other's security concerns and coinciding strategic objectives. simple as that. China ain't gonna spoon feed us people, and they SHOULDN'T spoon feed us! grow the hell up!





It's about time WE become the strong, powerful one.
 

Itachi

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:azn:

Lmao.....simple words....that's all.

Tell me when China moves companies to Pakistan and manufacturing capabilities......like US did with Intel. Among many other favors the US has bestowed upon Israel.

For now, Pakistan is just another country in a long list that China wishes to add to its fiefdom. :D

Honestly my friend China has indirectly cost Pakistan Kashmir. Pakistan has paid a very hefty price for this 'friendship' [countries don't have friends but interests] and I just hope over time the return is greater then the cost.

I won't go into the detail what that hefty cost has been - if you want me to explain just tag me. But fact is people think the alliance with USA has cost Pakistan the most. Nope, China has cost the most followed by USA.

I would go as far as to say that every relationship Pakistan has had with another country....Pakistan been always on the side which paid the most.....no matter in what way....

Pakistan has never been in a mutually beneficial relationship.....forget a relationship which favors Pakistan more than it does the other country.

But yea, please explain the Kashmir issue too. I would like to hear more about it from you. :cheers:
The amount of negative talk about Pakistan by Pakistanis is through the roof here.. why have you guys become like this? It's not even productive & I don't know traffic stats of this site but what impression do kids from ur country get here..

Stupid people :p::D

Effect of years of state sponsored propaganda like "Bhai Bhai"...."Pak-Cheen Dosti". :D

Half of China can't even find Pakistan on the map and the other half doesn't care much about Pakistan to be honest.

But in Pakistan.....China is seen like a "big brother" among many other things.
 

KaiserX

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100% correct. Think of other US cold war allies -

  • South Korea
  • Singapore
  • Turkey
  • Taiwan

Exactly, during Ayubs time he was able to take advantage of western funding for large scale projects. Many things were on track before bhutto/1969.

Had those same policies Ayub pursued continued uninterupted, then today Pakistans per capita income would be more inline with where Turkeys/Russia's is today.
 

Paul2

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Bid it no more than India's return to non-aligned camp.

China - India normalisation while extremely unlikely, will be an extremely bad news for Pakistan. That's fully correct.

Very likely, whomever will come after Xi, will start with fighting fires he started. Western front would be the prime candidate.

Jiang offered India normalisation, demarcation, and McMahon line in 1997-1998. Very fortunately for both you, and me, Indians refused.

Learn from history.
 

Ghessan

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with the highlights of the relationship between China & Pakistan over the decades:
i do not agree with what China has done for Pakistan is enough, it is not. but i would also say may be time has come just now when China has to show some favor towards people of Pakistan and really perform what an ally can do because now they have influence in the world which is growing besides they have transformed into a huge economy. only time will tell how this pans out.
we have seen and is not strange to us how allies have helped their partners in this very world.

on the other hand incompetency at our end could only helped us with the worst balance of trade with China. we could not benefit from this ally, our incompetency, politics and imbalance in geopolitical favors cost us to much particularly our standing among the nations which deteriorated so badly.

he concluded really well!
his words about people, politicians and media is true. ruler accountable to public is the only way forward but the tragedy is we general public, love to side with our leaders even in their wrong deeds and our only answer to criticism towards our leaders is to criticize others to save the asses. this also show how morally we are down and in character. this is our tragedy.

i am sorry but i would say: even people at this forum, we cannot say we are educated enough to accept criticism or to criticize on factual basis.

just visit the Politics section and see how we fell from our character. we can't claim ourselves dignified nation and our standing among the nations.
 

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