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Iron Age (Vedic era) Pakistanis were nothing like modern Indians

Maula Jatt

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Pathanias are pahari Rajputs of Himachal but since my town is on the border with Himachal there are many pathania Rajputs here. Sambyals are dogra Rajputs with roots in Samba which is very close to Pakistan
Pathankot
yeah that's right next to Narowal, makes sense- your clan is supposed to be an off-shoot of khokhars I believe
but interestingly in my family, we call ourselves Jutt and I think most of the Indian khokhars also identify as Jutts while y'all are on the other spectrum in this regard
 
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Hellfire2006

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yeah that's right next to Narowal, makes sense- your clan is supposed to be an off-shoot of khokhars I believe
Katals and khokhars are related, hence we don't keep matrimonial relationships with khokhars because of our gotra ( kashyap gotra)
People from same gotras can't marry
 
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Paitoo

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I won't deny that the sem2sem phenomenon does exist and it can become cringe at times. However post the internet era and Youtube etc, people have had access to a view of life across the border and I won't hold it against them that they find many similarities on a cultural level, even if on the surface, because for decades we have not known what anything on the other side looks like. If I find some similarities with life in China, those will stand out to me, and I might even exaggerate it for some time. One of the reasons we connect with a lot of realistic content on the internet regardless of where in the world it was made, is because we feel the same way as the creator feels.

I am from north India and live in Karnataka, and I feel different from the locals, and at the same time I feel they are like me in many ways. There is no contradiction here. In this context there is no point reading too much into it. We need to understand that majority of people commenting on social media are not very articulate or discerning in their responses. When people are commenting about similarities, it does not mean that they want to live among you, marry into your families or occupy your lands.
 

Maula Jatt

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Katals and khokhars are related, hence we don't keep matrimonial relationships with khokhars because of our gotra ( kashyap gotra)
People from same gotras can't marry
Opposite here :lol: , to save property, land older people kept it in the family

Although with people moving into cities, getting educated things are changing fast
 

Paitoo

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kashyap gotra

#metoo Kashyap gotra. But I have never understood this thing about people from the same gotra not marrying. My understanding is that gotra is not necessarily the same clan/lineage. In fact people from same gotra can be found in different castes. Maybe amongst people living together in the same vicinity for centuries gotra = lineage, but otherwise the two are not interchangeable.
 

Maula Jatt

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#metoo Kashyap gotra. But I have never understood this thing about people from the same gotra not marrying. My understanding is that gotra is not necessarily the same clan/lineage. In fact people from same gotra can be found in different castes. Maybe amongst people living together in the same vicinity for centuries gotra = lineage, but otherwise the two are not interchangeable.
Lol I don't understand anything you are saying
Don't know tf is gotra, tf is Kashyap, tf is castes and different gotras with different castes and different castes with different gotras

Your systems are too complicated for practicality - we have it simple , it's semi tribal in nature, there's a wider people group and within that your clan back in the day everyone had their head chiefs but now that's dead for centeries, if the clan Chief is warlike or martial, have land, kingdom in middle ages they'll lay claim to a Rajput status

and that also shows that forget being same with India a big a** country, thiers differences among actual same people
 

Paitoo

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Lol I don't understand anything you are saying
Don't know tf is gotra, tf is Kashyap, tf is castes and different gotras with different castes and different castes with different gotras

Your systems are too complicated for practicality - we have it simple , it's semi tribal in nature, there's a wider people group and within that your clan back in the day everyone had their head chiefs but now that's dead for centeries

and that also shows that forget being same with India a big a** country, thiers differences among actual same people

I have only academic interest in these things, like in History. Yes the system is complex, because the history is. Kashyap is not a caste, it is a gotra. The question is what is a gotra? There are 2 different answers to it. The more rigid believers think people from the same gotra are descended from the same ancestor. But there is another group which believes that anyone who was initiated into Vedic religion by a member of a particular gotra becomes part of that gotra. So you need not be related by blood, or be of the same caste, as you can see that Hellfire is a Rajput and I am a Brahmin.

It is almost entirely the upper castes and people of Aryan origin who believe in gotra and the rules it brings with it. So you will not find prohibitions of intra-marriage among lower castes, or Dravidians who do not have gotras. Those Dravidians who do have gotras are probably of Aryan origins, most likely Brahmins who came as priests/teachers/doctors and settled among the Dravidians, adopting their culture and language. If not, then they have a different understanding of what gotra is. Which is not surprising because meaning of a word changes with time and from region to region. When I was a kid, people would ask me what my caste was, when in reality they meant to ask my surname. I love this sort of confusion.
 

Maula Jatt

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I have only academic interest in these things, like in History. Yes the system is complex, because the history is. Kashyap is not a caste, it is a gotra. The question is what is a gotra? There are 2 different answers to it. The more rigid believers think people from the same gotra are descended from the same ancestor. But there is another group which believes that anyone who was initiated into Vedic religion by a member of a particular gotra becomes part of that gotra. So you need not be related by blood, or be of the same caste, as you can see that Hellfire is a Rajput and I am a Brahmin.
Kokhars are jats and his is a sub branch of it that separated couple centeries ago from the main group , jats have Scythian origins Afaik not Aryan
Among Hindu aristocracy or upper castes jats are considered lowly in stature (I know this from like my own little research, Pakistan is more tribalistic, all are the same usually unless someone's nomadic, Cristian

so I am not talking about lived experience just something I have kinda researched about the olden society, and from Indian society)

Too many complications, would an actual high caste person be comfortable with that? Accepting someone from lower societal sphere into their own?
It is almost entirely the upper castes and people of Aryan origin who believe in gotra and the rules it brings with it. So you will not find prohibitions of intra-marriage among lower castes, or Dravidians who do not have gotras. Those Dravidians who do have gotras are probably of Aryan origins, most likely Brahmins who came as priests/teachers/doctors and settled among the Dravidians, adopting their culture and language. If not, then they have a different understanding of what gotra is. Which is not surprising because meaning of a word changes with time and from region to region. When I was a kid, people would ask me what my caste was, when in reality they meant to ask my surname. I love this sort of confusion.
 
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Paitoo

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Too many complications, would an actual high caste person be comfortable with that? Accepting someone from lower societal sphere into their own?

Brahmins were always happy initiating kings into Vedic religion. They needed patrons, just like Kings needed someone to propagate the divine nature of their rule among the commoners. It also helps to know that during early years Brahmins were not necessarily superior to Kshatriyas. As society became more and more knowledge driven, and religious beliefs began being documented, written language became important, Brahmins also rose in stature.

Vedic Brahmins were also ok with initiating darker skinned natives into the Vedic religion as long as they followed the caste system and did not challenge the authority of the king and priest. We all know how that has progressed.
 

Hellfire2006

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#metoo Kashyap gotra. But I have never understood this thing about people from the same gotra not marrying. My understanding is that gotra is not necessarily the same clan/lineage. In fact people from same gotra can be found in different castes. Maybe amongst people living together in the same vicinity for centuries gotra = lineage, but otherwise the two are not interchangeable.
Marrying people from the same gotra is like marrying your own siblings, at least that's what our scriptures say. I believe it's a good thing to not marry within the lineage.
Yes you're right. Same gotras can be found in different castes too.
 

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