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Hack-Hook

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Not beings able to produce it in number because of a war is not the same as saying "Su-35 dont have AESA, Russia weak, America stronk"! The question is such system could well be on the 24 we are realistically rumoured to get, because they were intended for Egypt and already made.
i don't think russia was in war in 2004-2005 if i'm not wrong and india wanted aesa
First of all Hack Hook said that su-35 didnt have AESA at all and made it out that Russia cant make these. These all turned out to be lies!
if you think you can track any thing with those 12 L-Band T/R module then you are welcome to the airplane , instead of 60 go and buy 600 but when they fall out of sky against enemy aircraft don't come and cry
Russia has the ability to make Zhuk AE AESA for their flankers. And whats stopping Iran transfering its AESA technology for Bavar 373 and using it on their aircraft? Because from where Im sitting, IRIS-B is better than anything Iran has on its planes currently.
first zuk AE is for mig-29/35 not flanker .and very simple the question of miniaturization prevent you to use the AESA technology of Bavar in Airplanes . have you seen how big T/R module on Bavar are , you think why ground base radar have longer range than air based ones
The Indians modded their own planes without Russian approval or oversight which is what lead to them failing and not meeting needs. It's not Russia's fault that Indian pilots are inept at using PESA radar.
so this is current explanation , no longer USA pressure ?
They still believe in flankers hence why theyre going through the trouble of putting their own ghozmit AESA on their flankers.
india flankers don't use AESA they use BAR
Are faghat bekhand, barikallah. Neshoon mide harfaye zede nagheezet bedoone sanad hast, va baraye hamin dala'el harfat bateleh. Sooghoot kardee!
so that's explanation for several week of your laugh , good that you admit I laugh at you because its several day you are suggesting we use T/R module of Bavar in Aircrafts .
i laugh at you because you want to use L-Band radar for tracking, I laugh at you because you think Russia still have Mig-35 with AESA radar on offer.
I laugh at you because you think indian pilots don't knew how to use Radar on Su-30MKI
There you go again slurping the west and china, something we cant dream of getting. The system for Su-57 is different for flankers, you do know that right?
it seems those L-Band radar are the same
 

sahureka2

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from the Russian specialized press, yesterday this news, as always to be evaluated, confirmed or refuted.
"Iran intends to acquire 64 Russian Su-35 fighters, which will allow the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) to form five separate squadrons. A third of the fighter jets can be transferred to the Iranian Air Force by the end of this year, while the rest of the fighters, according to Arab media, Iran will be able to receive before 2025."
https://avia.pro/news/iran-kupit-u-...-formirovaniya-pyati-istrebitelnyh-eskadriliy
 

Hack-Hook

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from the Russian specialized press, yesterday this news, as always to be evaluated, confirmed or refuted.
"Iran intends to acquire 64 Russian Su-35 fighters, which will allow the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) to form five separate squadrons. A third of the fighter jets can be transferred to the Iranian Air Force by the end of this year, while the rest of the fighters, according to Arab media, Iran will be able to receive before 2025."
https://avia.pro/news/iran-kupit-u-...-formirovaniya-pyati-istrebitelnyh-eskadriliy
They at least could decidi IRGCAF or IRIAF
 

TheImmortal

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from the Russian specialized press, yesterday this news, as always to be evaluated, confirmed or refuted.
"Iran intends to acquire 64 Russian Su-35 fighters, which will allow the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) to form five separate squadrons. A third of the fighter jets can be transferred to the Iranian Air Force by the end of this year, while the rest of the fighters, according to Arab media, Iran will be able to receive before 2025."
https://avia.pro/news/iran-kupit-u-...-formirovaniya-pyati-istrebitelnyh-eskadriliy

According to Arab media.

The same Arab media that says Israeli F-35 fly over Iran all the time?
 

drmeson

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India ditched SU-30 for a simple reason. The "domestic production" is barely domestic and is in fact Moscow-supplied CKD kits that India assembles and calls its local production. Even these CKD kits have price tag of 65 Million USD for a SU-30MKI. That much money for a 10-14 m2 RCS airframe and non-AESA radar whose max BVR engagement capability is even less than FC-1 Block III. These Flankers could not defend Indian airspace against F-16C/D and FC-1 Block II who in the presence of SU-30MKI entered deep into the Indian airspace shot down Indian MIG-21-93, caused friendly fire shoot down of Indian Helicopter, bombed an Indian military base and left unharmed. In contrast, flankers were busy saving themselves from the barrage of AIM-120C strikes. Indians learned this lesson way late than Israel, China, France, UK, Korea etc who have already learned that small RCS, light airframe, powerful electronics, radars, and the longest possible range BVR wins you air battle. Rafale with its <1 m2 RCS and meteor would not have let it happen.

The flanker family has its place in modern aviation. They are great surface attackers with high MOTW, a variety of A2G armaments even though their Synthetic Aperture Radar SAR capabilities are lesser than their western counterparts. SAR of IRBIS-E of SU-35S has a resolution of 3m while that of Kowsar's Grifo-346 is 1m. It's a very important thing in a war where precision strikes are a norm-necessity.

Their other massive advantage is long-range CAP flights with a mini AWACS role. IRBIS-E may have a bad tracking range as their own video showed it tracking a fighter at 100KM. But they have massive search ranges ... like the F-14's AWG-9, only with much more modern T/R modules and processing units so SU-35S can petrol the Iranian skies for a long time and in case of engagement has its 100 km ranging BVR R-77-1 and R-74 all aspect WVR.
 

TheImmortal

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India has more than 250+ SU-30. Their SU-30 fleet alone is bigger than the entire Iranian airforce.

This thinking that they ditched SU-30 is quite frankly hilarious. They built an absurd amount for a single variant aircraft.

The real reason is that since the initial signing of the deal, over time India became less a balanced independent power and more a Western leaning lackey.

Thus there were REAL ramifications both in military industry and economic industry of India if they did not purchase western fighters this time around. Not to mention Russia had nothing to offer this time around. SU-75 and SU-57 are no where near mass production ready.

Not to mention the fact westerns arms lobbyists likely swayed India’s military commanders with gifts and bribes.
 

drmeson

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...............

BT has just recently published an article on SU-35S ad other purchases from Russia

- 24 x SU-35S, confirmed. MoU/Deal was first time discussed and signed in October 2021 by Bagheri in Moscow the problem was Iranian insistence on oil payments. Was discussed again in January when the agreement was reached. He confirmed that SU-30SM was first time sought by IRIAF in 2006 with TOT but was no longer part of plans when sanctions were removed.

- 64 x SU-35S will be the total order (IRIAF's mentioned need), he did not mention if they are total 64 or in addition to the above-mentioned 24 which will make the fleet 88 x Super Flankers strong. Arab media is spreading rumors that IRGCAF will own 64 (or 40) fighters IRIAF will get 24. Make of it as you will. SU-35S is intended to replace 64 x F-4E/D, 23 (12 active) x Mirage F-1Q/EQ and ~30 (16 active) x SU-22M4.

- 23 x MIG-29 fleet is being MLUed/Upgraded to MIG-29 SMT standard which means R-77-1 and R-73M/R-74 with 60 deg OBS will be procured. He did not mention if additional airframes will be procured. There is a upgradation facility already semi functional in Mehrabad for this purpose.

- 30 x SU-24MK will be brought to SU-24M2 standards. This will be a massive upgrade.

- Yak-130 is being discussed. This makes no sense because what is Yasin AT is for then ? again parallel projects are being run. The dilemma of Iran.

His work on Kowsar/Saegheh and F-14AM (recently published)

- There will be a fleet of 64 x Kowsar-I. Entire current fleet of 35 x F-5E and 14 x F-5F will form repository parts for them. the rest of the numbers are built from scratch. He says OWJ turbojets are not entirely built from scratch and use some black market-purchased parts of J-85-GE-21A. He confirmed the FBW, Modern Radar+ECCM, E-Warfare suite of Jammer, IFF, RWR, Chaff/Flare, Double Duplex Data linking and 5 computers out of which two are entirely dedicated to the weapons systems. After this production, Kowsar-II/Saegheh-III will get into production.

- 40 x F-14A are in flyable condition out of which ~20 are Full mission capable (FMC) and can be deployed for Quick Reaction Alerts (QRA). Some ~12 are F-14AM that can search/track at 350/200 KM and can use Fakour-90 (100 units made) or AIM-54 (30 x massively overhauled units). This number will increase. OWJ industries have created an entire local airframe and has also built a local TF-30-P414 turbofan. There is a 200 Km long ranging BVR being developed by Babaei Missile Industries with ARH seeker and ECCM capabilities of Fakour that can track even Shahed-171 in a Jamming environment. The plane will also receive a very modern WVR missile "Azaraksh" with a range of 40 KM with Focal Plane Array (FPA) seeker using video-camera type charge-coupled device (CCD). It will have a 4 different motors controlling 4 canards, very similar to AIM-9X Block II/III.

- All above proves one thing. Russia does not allow local upgrades. Money must receive Moscow if you touch their planes.

- Good Bye to Mirage F1/Q/EQ (23), F-7N (43), F-5E/F/R(60)

..........................................................................

IRIAF+IRGC-AF future fleet (RCS m2, Search/track range KM, BVR, WVR, e-warfare, TDL)

104 x Heavy Interceptors/CAP (4.0 to 4++ generation)
64 x SU-35S (10-14 m2, IRBIS-E 250/100+, R-77-1+R-74, yes, yes)
40 x F-14AM (6-10 m2, AWG-9+ 350/150, Fakour-90+AIM-54+Azarakhsh WVR, No, Yes?)

87+ (Manned) + 200 (Unmanned) Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) (4.0 to 4+ generation)
23 x MIG-29 SMT (3-5m2, Zhuk-ME 180/120, R-77-1+R-73M, yes, no)
64 x Kowsar-I (<3m2, Grifo-346 115/93, local AIM-7E2+Azarakhsh WVR, Yes, Yes)
Unknown x Kowsar-II (<3m2, Grifo-E equivalent AESA 200/150, local AIM-7E2+Azarakhsh WVR)
200 x Karrar UCAV Wingmen (<1 m2, Azarakhsh WVR)

124 (Manned) + 350 (Unmanned) Attack/ELINT/SIGINT, PGM (4.0 to 3++ generation)
30 x SU-24M2 (?? R-60M/R-73+KH-29+KH-58+KAB series PGM, No, No)
64 x F-4E/D (10m2, Bayyenat-II 150/100, AIM-7E2+AIM-9P/J+Ya-Ali LACM+Ghader/Nasr AShCM+ Glide PGM, No, No)
30 x SU-22M3 (16 active) (??, R-60M+Fajr-4 ALBM+Hoveyzeh LACM+Glide PGM, yes, yes)
200 x Mohajer-6 (Synthetic Aperture Radar, EO/IR, Laser guided, TV guided PGM)
50+ x Shahed 171/191 Stealth Flying wing UCAV (SA Radar, EO/IR, Laser+TV guided PGM)
40 x Shahed 129/149 (Synthetic Aperture Radar, EO/IR, Laser guided, TV guided PGM)
40 x KAMAN-22+12 (Synthetic Aperture Radar, EO/IR, Laser guided, TV guided PGM, E-Warfare X band Pods Shahin-II/Oghab)
30 x Ababil-5 (Synthetic Aperture Radar, EO/IR, Laser guided, TV guided PGM)

12 x Advanced trainers (4.0 generation)
Yak-130?? (~1 m2, Phazotron Kopyo 120/80, R-73M, Yes, No?)
Yasin AT (??m2, Grifo-346 115/93, Azarakhsh WVR, Yes, No?)

Loitering/Suicide Drones
Shahed-136
Arash-I/II
 

drmeson

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India has more than 250+ SU-30. Their SU-30 fleet alone is bigger than the entire Iranian airforce.

This thinking that they ditched SU-30 is quite frankly hilarious. They built an absurd amount for a single variant aircraft.

Means nothing. They procured SU-30MKI long before western 4++ generation fighters were available to them. F-18E/F, EF-2000 T2/4, Rafale, JAS-39E all came to markets much later than India was already ballz deep into Flankers. Their problems became visible after their beat down against F-16C/D the first thing they did was to procure the French Rafale, a fighter that itself has a RCS of <1m2 and can engage enemy with BVR missile ranging > 200KM. Su-30MKI cant do anything of above.

The real reason is that since the initial signing of the deal, over time India became less a balanced independent power and more a Western leaning lackey.

That again means nothing because to keep Russia aligned they are still paying heavy $$ money to Russian military industries. Russia is supplying CDK kits of SU-30MKI for almost the price of SU-35S and the SU-30MKI upgradation program in India will be partnered by Russian MoD's front firms for billions of USD. So much for domestic production.

Thus there were REAL ramifications both in military industry and economic industry of India if they did not purchase western fighters this time around.

To counter Chinese PLAAF of 600 x J-10C, J-20, Flankers, Indian AF needed a low RCS 4++ generation western fighter. They are no fools they opened LCA and MCA programs parallel to Sukhoi procurement in which requirements were only met by western fighters as Russia had no small RCS, heavy avionics fighter to sell. MIG-35 came later. So their LCA became local TEJAS fighter and MCA is Rafale,a low RCS avionics heavy fighter. Not to mention their eternal enemy Pakistan wields a fleet of 250 F-16C/D, FC-1 block I/II/II, J-10C. They have proper skirmishes with both countries. So they had no choice but to look for a machine that means business and Flanker is not designed for this. Its like somebody procures F-15C and starts hoping it will somehow beat a Rafale. Different roles, different capabilities.
 

Sineva

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India ditched SU-30 for a simple reason. The "domestic production" is barely domestic and is in fact Moscow-supplied CKD kits that India assembles and calls its local production. Even these CKD kits have price tag of 65 Million USD for a SU-30MKI. That much money for a 10-14 m2 RCS airframe and non-AESA radar whose max BVR engagement capability is even less than FC-1 Block III. These Flankers could not defend Indian airspace against F-16C/D and FC-1 Block II who in the presence of SU-30MKI entered deep into the Indian airspace shot down Indian MIG-21-93, caused friendly fire shoot down of Indian Helicopter, bombed an Indian military base and left unharmed. In contrast, flankers were busy saving themselves from the barrage of AIM-120C strikes. Indians learned this lesson way late than Israel, China, France, UK, Korea etc who have already learned that small RCS, light airframe, powerful electronics, radars, and the longest possible range BVR wins you air battle. Rafale with its <1 m2 RCS and meteor would not have let it happen.

The flanker family has its place in modern aviation. They are great surface attackers with high MOTW, a variety of A2G armaments even though their Synthetic Aperture Radar SAR capabilities are lesser than their western counterparts. SAR of IRBIS-E of SU-35S has a resolution of 3m while that of Kowsar's Grifo-346 is 1m. It's a very important thing in a war where precision strikes are a norm-necessity.

Their other massive advantage is long-range CAP flights with a mini AWACS role. IRBIS-E may have a bad tracking range as their own video showed it tracking a fighter at 100KM. But they have massive search ranges ... like the F-14's AWG-9, only with much more modern T/R modules and processing units so SU-35S can petrol the Iranian skies for a long time and in case of engagement has its 100 km ranging BVR R-77-1 and R-74 all aspect WVR.
Ideally the iriaf would be wanting the R-37m and K-77M a2a missiles for its su35 fleet,as these [on paper at least] equal or exceed the capabilities of the a2a weapons carried by the gulfie/zionist/nato airforces in the region.Otherwise the iriaf could potentially wind up facing the exact same sort of problems that the indians had in a particularly embarrassing a2a engagement recently.
The other option would be an iranian developed next generation phoenix missile with all of the bells and whistles of a top end a2a missile,ie 300km+ range,aesa seeker,or combined radar+ir seeker,2-way data link,etc....
The other deficiency is the lack of a modern russian targeting pod.[apart from the T-220]
This would be an excellent opportunity for the iriaf to develop a pod while also modernising [long overdue] its early 90s era pgms to operate with it.
Even better would be if the iriaf and the irgcaf could work together on this,as the irgcaf has at least built and tested a prototype of a pod and also has developed the most modern air launched pgms,ie yasin,bina,balaban,that iran currently fields,so this would be an excellent opportunity for the iriaf to adopt them into service as well.
Plus you also have a new generation of much larger and much more powerful optronic turrets being developed,such as for the gaza/shahed 149 drone,this would be ideal as the head unit of any such pod.
 

TheImmortal

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Means nothing. They procured SU-30MKI long before western 4++ generation fighters were available to them. F-18E/F, EF-2000 T2/4, Rafale, JAS-39E all came to markets much later than India was already ballz deep into Flankers.

Agreed. You’re just further making my point. Some forget till relatively recently, India was under sanctions for its nuclear (weapons) program by the West. The SU-30 deal was signed in 1996, no body in the West would give India any significant aircraft at that time.

Their problems became visible after their beat down against F-16C/D the first thing they did was to procure the French Rafale, a fighter that itself has a RCS of <1m2 and can engage enemy with BVR missile ranging > 200KM. Su-30MKI cant do anything of above.

I would say India also has a problem training pilots. Their pilots are simply not comparable to average western or even Iranian pilot.

That again means nothing because to keep Russia aligned they are still paying heavy $$ money to Russian military industries. Russia is supplying CDK kits of SU-30MKI for almost the price of SU-35S and the SU-30MKI upgradation program in India will be partnered by Russian MoD's front firms for billions of USD. So much for domestic production.

They are paying $62M per aircraft. The higher cost is simple….economies of scale. They are built in batches rather than large numbers at the time. The cost would drop by half if they built to economies or scale this is straight from Indian commanders mouths. But politicians made the decisions.

As for Rafael at $250M an aircraft costing India, you can equip 4 SU-30MKI for that price.

Let’s not forget what I just said about corruption and lobbyist deals that these western arms companies excel at trapping foreign politicians and commanders with sex, drugs, money, influence, etc.

 

drmeson

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Agreed. You’re just further making my point. Some forget till relatively recently, India was under sanctions for its nuclear (weapons) program by the West. The SU-30 deal was signed in 1996, no body in the West would give India any significant aircraft at that time.

The point I was making is that India bought SU-30MKI when they had no better option available. They moved toward western better platforms the moment they could and their weakness is just recently got exposed.

Let alone Rafale, Why India spent billions of USD on upgradation of Mirage-2000 and Jaguars if SU-30MKI's strike capability is so brilliant? They are trying their best to get out of the Russian grip but failing to do so.

I would say India also has a problem training pilots. Their pilots are simply not comparable to average western or even Iranian pilot.

Possibly but point I was making is that SU-30MKI or any flanker is not suitable for taking on modern western jets of 4+ generations or beyond. You cant expect a 10-14m2 RCS airframe armed with 100 KM ranging BVR R-77-1 against a ~1 m2 F-16D armed with AIM-120D or a <1 m2 EF-2000 armed with a nasty piece of work called Meteor BVRAAM.

People need to understand, esp the posters here on our section that Flanker design was built in mid-late 1970s as a counter product to American F-14/F-15 programs. Its job was to be a multirole fighter that can attack ground/ships and hold its own in air too. It predates the 4.5 generation of little electronic warfare savvy fighters like EF-2000, Rafale, JAS-39E, F-18E/F, J-10C, F-16D who all have multifold lower RCS with superior electronics and missiles package. They all have lower MOTW and capacity that Flanker though so yes Flanker family beats them in strike capability by margin. Like I said, different jobs, different roles. With SU-35S, IRIAF has the golden opportunity to get rid of F-4E/D, SU-24 while Kowsar-I/II can kick out F-7N, F-5, Mirages.

They are paying $62M per aircraft. The higher cost is simple….economies of scale. They are built in batches rather than large numbers at the time. The cost would drop by half if they built to economies or scale this is straight from Indian commanders mouths. But politicians made the decisions.

As for Rafael at $250M an aircraft costing India, you can equip 4 SU-30MKI for that price.

Rafale procurement is a necessity for them, not some political move. Indians are known for $$ corruption but India has nothing to gain from France in particular. If politics was the goal why not make global superpower US your ally by purchasing F-18E/F (equivalent to Rafale) instead of France? Super Hornet was part of the MCA program of India and lost to Rafale. Rafale is just the best they could manage and they got it. Yes I am sure Indian politicians somehow may have received bribes from France but after Indian AF had already chosen Rafale.

Let’s not forget what I just said about corruption and lobbyist deals that these western arms companies excel at trapping foreign politicians and commanders with sex, drugs, money, influence, etc.


And Russians won't do it? What makes India still purchase SU-30MKI CDK kits for 65 million USD and pay billion in name of upgradation programs of it and MIG fleet when they have and order for 130 Rafale? Nobody is an angel in business. We are developing a UCAV market in competition to Turkey, Israel. I am sure we will pull our own dirty tricks too.
 

drmeson

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Ideally the iriaf would be wanting the R-37m and K-77M a2a missiles for its su35 fleet,as these [on paper at least] equal or exceed the capabilities of the a2a weapons carried by the gulfie/zionist/nato airforces in the region.Otherwise the iriaf could potentially wind up facing the exact same sort of problems that the indians had in a particularly embarrassing a2a engagement recently.
The other option would be an iranian developed next generation phoenix missile with all of the bells and whistles of a top end a2a missile,ie 300km+ range,aesa seeker,or combined radar+ir seeker,2-way data link,etc....



Russians would not sell R-37 as they did not sell R-33. The R-77-1 is coming though so it will arm the SU-35S and MIG-29 fleet.

Iran has Fakour-90 which is a powerful weapon at long BVR ranges and Maghsoud is coming with ARH seeker, ECCM with 200 Km range. Irony is that only F-14AM can fire these weapons.

They recently showed a local AIM-7E2 which if uses modern motor may break into 70-80 KM range zone with ARH seeker, it will be deadly since F-4E/D, Kowsar, F-14A/AM (164 fighters) can use it.

The other deficiency is the lack of a modern russian targeting pod.[apart from the T-220]
This would be an excellent opportunity for the iriaf to develop a pod while also modernising [long overdue] its early 90s era pgms to operate with it.

Iranian target tracking sensors are catching up very fast. But SU-35S itself is a menace when it comes to ground attack with its MTOW and variety of armaments.

What I would focus on will be the integration of IRST in Kowsar fleet. Khordad systems use local TS-2 system which has a passive range of 150 KM. Easy to mount on a Kowsar airframe.

This means in case of war, SU-35S, MIG-29 SMT and Kowsar-I can just turn off their radars and rely upon passive search and track of even low RCS enemy fighters. Once tracked they can either go for heat seekers or can turn on radars quickly to fire weapons and leave the area.

Even better would be if the iriaf and the irgcaf could work together on this,as the irgcaf has at least built and tested a prototype of a pod and also has developed the most modern air launched pgms,ie yasin,bina,balaban,that iran currently fields,so this would be an excellent opportunity for the iriaf to adopt them into service as well.
Plus you also have a new generation of much larger and much more powerful optronic turrets being developed,such as for the gaza/shahed 149 drone,this would be ideal as the head unit of any such pod.

Kowsar-I's ground attack package seems superb, it has a Weapons management computer (WMC) which itself suggests the right weapon for the tracked target and a Ballistic computer (Ball-C) for accuracy. Its already shown with SDB-1 like local glide PGM. Plane has a double duplex tactical datalink with UCAVs and fighters so it can easily carry out precision strikes. 2 x Kowsar-1 with 1 x Kaman-22 (EO-IR tracing, ECM Pods) and 2 x KAMAN-22 (just PGM, LACM) means a secure precision land attack run of 15,000 lbs of Land attack cruise missiles, glide PGMs. Quite a handsome package I would say.

If it was upto me I would have given IRIAF under IRGC's management atleast if not under full control. Atleast the parallel projects would have stopped to save $ and resources.
 

Mr Iran Eye

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No and no !!

F-4 and other improvement planes will survive until they are destroyed in a way or otherwise.They will be in support of attack and you must not know anything about the war tactics to want to get rid of the planes that are active and in working order.

Iran is working on at least 3 combat planes. The purchase of SU-35S just improves Arian force and technical knowledge. Iran is working on at least 3 combat planes. The purchase of SU-35S just improves Arian force and technical knowledge.

What would be the changes desired by Iran? Iran themselves will certainly modify certain things as they like to do
 

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