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drmeson

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Hypothetical scenario 1:

IRIAF takes 24 X SU-35S from Russia at 85 million USD/piece. They will come for atleast 4 billion USD including the infrastructure. After spending this 4 Billion USD, by 2030 this will be an operational interception IRIAF fleet:

- 24 x SU-35S
- 20-22 x F-14A/AM. Rest will be grounded and cannibalized
- 30 Kowsar-I and ~1-2 Prototypes of Kowsar- II
- 8-10 x MIG-29 9.12. The rest fleet will be grounded without MLU. Severely obsolete avionics.

If IRIAF puts a further 4 billion USD by 2026 and abandons the Kowsar/Saeghe program, MIG Fleet dies a MLU-less obsolete death

for 8 Billion USD by 2030:

- 72 x SU-35S
- 20-22 x F-14A/AM. Rest will be grounded and cannablised

OR

Hypothetical scenario 2:

IRIAF spends same 4 billion USD on following:

1) 400 x ARH R-77-1
2) 400 x R-74
3) 200 x R-33MK Turbofans (with TOT)
4) 50 x MIG-29M and IRIAF MIG-29 fleet gets MLUed and upgraded

By 2030, this will be the IRIAF fleet for the interception

- 44 x F-14AM (Weapons: Fakour-90, Maghsoud with ARH upto 200 km)
- 73 x MIG-29M2 (R-77-1, R-74)
- 100 x Kowsar- I/II (AESA radar, e-warfare, multiaxis FBW, R-33M Turbofan, R-77-1, HMD-R74)
 
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drmeson

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I'd like to see some kind of proof that these datalinks you talk about actually exist, because I'm not aware of any.

According to head of Iran Aviation Industries Organization (IAIO) Lieutenant Brigadier General Afshin Khajeh Fard, IRIAF Kowsar (Like IRGCAF SU-22M4) feature datalink with network of other aircrafts such unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) for exchange of target information.

LINK
 

TheImmortal

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- You lied to us here

The only person who has lied here is you:


It won't have the datalink that IRIAF uses for Kowsar, F-14AM and UCAVs (confirmed by IAI head, Gen. Afshin Khajeh Fard). It would have an isolated battle environment cut off from the entire IRIAF fleet.
Lie. SU-30MKK had data link back in 2000’s as I said in my post earlier with stats provided but you ignored.

There is not a single example where Russian 4th generation combat planes have ever received any local upgrade by their clients.

More lies and I provided several examples of Chinese local upgrades outside of contract on their SU-30’s back in 2000’s. Russians did not care one bit. Again you ignored more evidence of your lies.

Like I said you call out people for behavior that you yourself emulate.

As for your F-5 claims, you never produced a single strand of evidence that F-5 has a 1-2m2 frontal cross section.

You literally want everyone to believe you based on F-18 has 3m2 (no citation provided other than your claim that USN said so which I couldn’t find) so F-5 will have 1-2m2 because it’s a “smaller”. That’s ultimately where your claim comes from....yourself. Which is fine, but you tried to pass it off as FACT.

Official RCS data on modern fighters is very hard to find if not classified by most countries. Simulations out there are what make it to web. Same simulations you berated.

Several actual technical people with experience in the field of aeronautics like Evilwesterners and Peed have commended the flankers and suggested that Iran purchase the plane for defense purposes if at all possible.

You just regurgitate stats that is all,
while never providing citation of various claims and then when someone asks for citation you belittle and provide your opinion in form of pictures and random rants. You pass your opinion as fact. It doesn’t carry more weight than anyone else’s opinion here.

As for your latest F-5 “rebuttal” (if I can call it that) it was merely you repeating what you said prior regarding the paper. ‘the paper didn’t say it’s real life values’ (you might have said that 5+ times in a single post!) You introduced bold font and underlining font plus some new pictures. Nothing new added by you other than maybe your blood pressure rising rapidly.

So at this point it’s like going in motions like Tom and Jerry with you. You won’t accept Kowsar for what it is. Barely information on its “datalink”, “radar” by the military themselves. No long range BVR or if it’s coming. But you assume it’s better than Russian electronics or what Russia can provide Iran as a stop gap.


Here is the paper in PDF format if you actually want to read and understand it without having a stroke


I have concluded you are too far down the rabbit hole regarding Project Kowsar to consider viable stop gap alternatives. It would be counter productive to try to make you see the light. You made it clear you rather sit in fanboy darkness clutching on to false hopes.
 

Hack-Hook

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what credible sources
The Institute for the Study of War is a policy research organization focused on U.S. national security.
and Forbes
and the wording , that May part show how credible their source is , in short they pull it out of their asses

and look at forbes article, what strong words
The latest speculation about the future of Russia-Iran defense relations is that Tehran might procure Russian Su-35 Flanker fighter jets in return for supplying Moscow with various types of its indigenously-produced drones.
On Aug. 2, an open-source intelligence Twitter account cited unofficial sources claiming that “Iran has sent the first batch of UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) to Russia for field testing.”



“Also Iranian pilots and technicians sent to Russia for training on Su-35,” the tweet added.
While it could not independently verify this claim
now we are in the realm of may, might and unnamed Unofficial sources:woot::woot::cheesy:
 
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AmirPatriot

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According to head of Iran Aviation Industries Organization (IAIO) Lieutenant Brigadier General Afshin Khajeh Fard, IRIAF Kowsar (Like IRGCAF SU-22M4) feature datalink with network of other aircrafts such unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) for exchange of target information.

LINK
This link explains that Kowsar and Su-22 are able to send and receive target information from UAVs. Given the capabilities of Iran's UAVs, I expect this is likely target coordinates and maybe images. No mention of F-14AM.

However that is not the type of datalink I am talking about. Datalinks like Link4 and Link16, and their Russian counterparts, share real time radar data from an AWACS or ground radar (or even other tactical aircraft) with the aircraft, and vice versa. That data is then displayed on the tactical aircraft's display in real time showing the enemy aircraft's position, speed, altitude, even type...

There are 2 main benefits to this:

1. It grants 360 degree, all-altitude situational awareness to the tactical aircraft, not just restricted to its own ~60 degree, front-sector only radar cone. That is such a huge huge thing. Situational awareness is the number one foundation of BVR combat. Without good SA, anything can sneak up on you.

2. It allows the tactical aircraft to keep its radar off but still have situational awareness. This way it won't show up on enemies' RWR, making it easier to surprise enemy aircraft.
 

drmeson

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This link explains that Kowsar and Su-22 are able to send and receive target information from UAVs. Given the capabilities of Iran's UAVs, I expect this is likely target coordinates and maybe images. No mention of F-14AM.

However that is not the type of datalink I am talking about. Datalinks like Link4 and Link16, and their Russian counterparts, share real time radar data from an AWACS or ground radar (or even other tactical aircraft) with the aircraft, and vice versa. That data is then displayed on the tactical aircraft's display in real time showing the enemy aircraft's position, speed, altitude, even type...

There are 2 main benefits to this:

1. It grants 360 degree, all-altitude situational awareness to the tactical aircraft, not just restricted to its own ~60 degree, front-sector only radar cone. That is such a huge huge thing. Situational awareness is the number one foundation of BVR combat. Without good SA, anything can sneak up on you.

2. It allows the tactical aircraft to keep its radar off but still have situational awareness. This way it won't show up on enemies' RWR, making it easier to surprise enemy aircraft.

What Khajeh Fard is describing is a "Full Duplex Tactical Datalink" between Kowsar<---->UCAVs in IRIAF and SU-22M4<---->UCAVs IRGCAF. If the two-way information being exchanged is made of tracked mobile target coordinates from radar that is enabling other vehicles to use them to launch weapons then it means the exchange is very much real time radar tracked data and not just limited to some rudimentary cues or image exchanges. He specifically mentions the attack part otherwise he could have just said that its a cueing information system. I see no reason to disbelieve him. We know Kowsar uses MIL-STD-1553 serial multiplex data bus. May be so does KAMAN-22, and SU-22M4, other UCAVs.

As for F-14AM. BT wrote an article in AirInternational on IRIAF operational CAPs in which he specifically mentions few F-14AMs and 1 x Kowsar-1 (3-7400) operating under the GWACS network command of Khatam Al-Anbiya Air defence base. The network itself is made of dozens of Search and Track radars. He did not specify it further because he is getting more deranged with his political ranting but it hints towards some sort of TDL on F-14AM. Could be anything.

Russian AF are themselves, late comers, to the data linking strategy in combat aviation. They used some retro tactical Radio system R846 on TU-128 Fiddler which none of the other aircraft could use so the Fiddler continued serving till 1990 until MIG-31B came with "Spektr". I literally have no idea what the Flanker family uses because in recent times they have made obnoxious claims related to their fighters:

-NIIP IRBIS-E, claiming it to be tracking targets at 250+ KM but then their own videos show that radar can barely track a fighter at ~100 KM. The 250 KM range is actually for cued-search.
-They called SU-57 a fifth-generation stealth fighter at the time of unvieling but then in their patent the RCS of Felon is reported to be 0.1 m2 which makes the plane "Low observable" at best, kinda like EF-2000 or Rafale.
 

drmeson

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....................................

BTW some news and rumors I wanted to post but because of traveling I could not

- BT claimed that SU-35 deal is ruined because IRIAF could not gather ~4 Billion USD or whatever amount they needed for a few squadrons and that Khayyam Sattelite's launch is only payment for UCAVs gone to Russia. Sounds illogical.

- BT is also claiming that OWJ Industrial has reverse engineered an entire F-14 Airframe inside their facilities with IACI TEM providing parts for TF30-P414 Turbofans. IRIAF is facing severe budget cuts so they may not be unvieled. All ongoing programs such as SU-35 Procurement, Kowsar-I/II, F-14AM upgradation, Kaman-22 UCAV induction, KC747 tankers being grounded are being hindered by budget cuts.

- Kowsar-I acrojet team apparently received IEI Bayyenat-II radars and avionics.
 
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AmirPatriot

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Iran's UAVs don't have radars for a datalink to transmit their data from. There have been some SARs seen but no evidence they are operational. Moreover, this is purely in the Air-to-ground role, whereas I am talking of the air-to-air role. Anyway, the article had no mention of a datalink utilising radar returns.

Flankers have had the TKS-2 DL since the early days and that has been fitted to other aircraft. It's comparable to Link-4. Su-35 has some newer one called S-107/108 which is comparable to Link-16. Russia is also developing/fielding something called OSNOD which is for the Su-57 and apparently some of the other modern flankers. Best to ask a Russian user about these things.

I think we don't need to discuss BT's ramblings here. A waste of time.
 

drmeson

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Iran's UAVs don't have radars for a datalink to transmit their data from. There have been some SARs seen but no evidence they are operational.

There is no evidence that SARs they have shown (three in total so far I think) have not been deployed either. It does not make sense to keep showing systems and not use them even if on few vehicles. For all we can speculate here, Khajeh Fard could be talking about few UCAVS with SARs, DL'ing with fighter jets, not the entire fleet. This is the head of IAIO, a Brig. General claiming something operatioal, not some random journalist with "inside scoop".

Moreover, this is purely in the Air-to-ground role, whereas I am talking of the air-to-air role. Anyway, the article had no mention of a datalink utilising radar returns.

If the tracked target information exchange is real-time then what can work for A2G targets between Fighters-UCAVs can also be modified to work for A2A targets between Fighters-Fighters. Besides, AirInternational article I qouted before mentions GWACS using GCI command through data to IRIAF during CAP Patrols.

Anyway, the article had no mention of a datalink utilising radar returns.

How do you track a target without radar from a fighter jet? Lets say Kowsar with its shown avionics.

Flankers have had the TKS-2 DL since the early days and that has been fitted to other aircraft. It's comparable to Link-4. Su-35 has some newer one called S-107/108 which is comparable to Link-16. Russia is also developing/fielding something called OSNOD which is for the Su-57 and apparently some of the other modern flankers. Best to ask a Russian user about these things.

I think we don't need to discuss BT's ramblings here. A waste of time.

Umm no. SU-27/30 never came with any inherent datalink. TKS-2/098 came much later as an "upgrade package" for SU-30M, first time used in 2004. Also TKS-2 is a intra Flanker family DL that is limited to Sukhoi Flanker fighters. It does not connect Flankers with even the Russian A-50 AWACS (uses 5U15K-11 datalink) and Spektr of MiG-31BM. So if Russian Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Beriev DL's are not connecting with each other directly, how can we assume SU-35 will just fit in with Iranian GWACS or TDL which "could be" something entirely different?


If Iran purchases SU-35S will they have to modify the entire GWACS, UCAVS, Fighters to connect with SU-35 or vice versa? or Flanker's DL will use the current Iranian DL system to operate? I am genuinely asking.

I think we don't need to discuss BT's ramblings here. A waste of time.

I would not discount him on basis of his political ranting or schizophrenia (if he is one person???) Roughly 5-6/10 times his claims about IRIAF come true.

I wish Iranian media was more trained to cover defense exhibitions and unveilings with stats. They mess up their coverage of events and we have to rely upon these politically biased sources.
 
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sanel1412

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You dont need radar for data link, data link is Integrated as separete devices, in fact attack aircrafts dont have radar at all, yet some of those have datalink, fighter Jet share data over datalink but they dont Use radar for Communications, they Just share data from radar and that is Reason why datalink is Integrated with radar(in case of fighter jets with radar. UAVs already have datalink, how do you think they stream video... Video streaming need 100 times more bandwith than Just sharing of data...
 

AmirPatriot

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There is no evidence that SARs they have shown (three in total so far I think) have not been deployed either. It does not make sense to keep showing systems and not use them even if on few vehicles. For all we can speculate here, Khajeh Fard could be talking about few UCAVS with SARs, DL'ing with fighter jets, not the entire fleet. This is the head of IAIO, a Brig. General claiming something operatioal, not some random journalist with "inside scoop"
Bottom line is that at no point did the head of IAIO mention radar at all.
If the tracked target information exchange is real-time then what can work for A2G targets between Fighters-UCAVs can also be modified to work for A2A targets between Fighters-Fighters.
That entirely depends on the technical aspects of the datalink system. I don't think a simple modification is good enough - the information required on air targets is much different to that of ground targets.
Besides, AirInternational article I qouted before mentions GWACS using GCI command through data to IRIAF during CAP Patrols
Aka the GCI operator vectoring the pilot over radio as the IRIAF/IIAF has been doing for over half a century.

Unfortunately F-14AM doesn't have any cockpit upgrades over the F-14A to facilitate the kind of datalink seen on modern 4.5th and 5th gen fighters. The cockpit you see below is exactly the same as in the F-14A.

297344308_1411870559303793_6944150262174826933_n.webp.jpg

How do you track a target without radar from a fighter jet? Lets say Kowsar with its shown avionics.
Simple coordinates that show up as a waypoint or stationary ground target on the aircraft's digital map. Most Iranian UAVs have sensor balls that could pick up simple coordinates in that fashion.
Umm no. SU-27/30 never came with any inherent datalink. TKS-2/098 came much later as an "upgrade package" for SU-30M, first time used in 2004. Also TKS-2 is a intra Flanker family DL that is limited to Sukhoi Flanker fighters. It does not connect Flankers with even the Russian A-50 AWACS (uses 5U15K-11 datalink) and Spektr of MiG-31BM. So if Russian Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Beriev DL's are not connecting with each other directly, how can we assume SU-35 will just fit in with Iranian GWACS or TDL which "could be" something entirely different?
The article you linked did not say it does not connect, but that it is not known whether they connect. We can say this is an area where we lack sufficient information. Though I'd be surprised if the A-50 datalink couldn't connect to the Su-27's, given they were developed at a similar point in time.

Nevertheless, it is well established that modern Russian fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S) have modern datalinks which was my original point.
If Iran purchases SU-35S will they have to modify the entire GWACS, UCAVS, Fighters to connect with SU-35 or vice versa? or Flanker's DL will use the current Iranian DL system to operate? I am genuinely asking.
Quite possibly. It shouldn't be too difficult given systems on both sides are digital. Iran could use Russian or even Chinese (they also have had to integrate Russian tech into their military) help.

I'd hope any Su-35 purchase comes with AWACS purchases such as the new Beriev A-100.
schizophrenia
:lol:
 

TheImmortal

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You dont need radar for data link, data link is Integrated as separete devices, in fact attack aircrafts dont have radar at all, yet some of those have datalink, fighter Jet share data over datalink but they dont Use radar for Communications, they Just share data from radar and that is Reason why datalink is Integrated with radar(in case of fighter jets with radar. UAVs already have datalink, how do you think they stream video... Video streaming need 100 times more bandwith than Just sharing of data...

Not exactly true. You are confusing the ability to send video data with the ability to send targeting data two different things. UAV cannot magically get targeting data on a fighter jet without using some type of radar.

Use of datalink to send targeting data in airspace where F-35/F-22 are operating is ill advised as they both will pick up on the emissions unless the data link has LPI DL as both F-35/F-22 use forms of this to accurately (and more importantly passively) transmit accurate targeting data with minimal radar usage to hide emissions .

Neither SU-57 nor J-20 at this time incorporate this, so I doubt Iranian fighters do. They will be leaking emissions sharing target data with each other thus compromising their radar signature.

So DL are a double edged sword against US 5th Gen fighters in your airspace.
 
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drmeson

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Bottom line is that at no point did the head of IAIO mention radar at all.

Other than radar, Kowsar-I platform has no other means of tracking a target so how it will track a target and provide data to a UCAV for attack?

That entirely depends on the technical aspects of the datalink system. I don't think a simple modification is good enough - the information required on air targets is much different to that of ground targets.

The data packets of a tracked mobile ground target is not different from aerial target. What matters is the fact that the channel can handle real time radar track data transfer and is Double Duplex (two way exchange). Aerial target only moves more faster but is easier to handle because:

- No Surface/ground clutter
- No terrain hiding advantage

Once tracked, an aerial target has no counter-strategy other than to resort to ECM/Jamming the tracking device.

Aka the GCI operator vectoring the pilot over radio as the IRIAF/IIAF has been doing for over half a century.

What you are talking about is "Cueing" which is the first step, not the only one. GWACS network of Iran now has three new tools:

1) Long range Search radars that generate Cues for track radars + Fighters for location of target
2) Long-range track radars provide the lock and transfer the data to SAM batteries + Fighter jets (through TDL)
3) SAMs + Fighters can deploy weapons.

Focus on the words of the article that despite upgraded AWG-9 having a search range in excess of ~300+ KM, the radars were kept off. How did they look for targets then during border CAPS? just radio operator was Cueing them ?

Unfortunately F-14AM doesn't have any cockpit upgrades over the F-14A to facilitate the kind of datalink seen on modern 4.5th and 5th gen fighters. The cockpit you see below is exactly the same as in the F-14A.

View attachment 869260

Having additional MFD's has nothing to do with TDL. Installation of DL includes incorporation of an antenna and an added connection to the processing unit of the radar. The same screen which shows aircraft's self searched-tracked targets shows the data received targets too.

Besides, this fighter with confirmed Tactical DL was also deployed. I am sure it was not taking radio cues.

Kowsar-page-0002.jpg


Simple coordinates that show up as a waypoint or stationary ground target on the aircraft's digital map. Most Iranian UAVs have sensor balls that could pick up simple coordinates in that fashion.

That makes no sense. Why do you need datalink between Fighter-UCAV if you already have information of the "waypoint or stationary target" ? whichever vehicle has ammunition can go there on its own and attack the target without needing any data from another vehicle.

Thing is, Kowsar fighter has no other target tracking option then its own radar, an exact ditto of Grifo-346 which itself is a top of the line modern radar for light fighters with strong SAR resolution. If Head of IAIO says that Kowsar can "exchange" (double duplex) target info with UCAVs there is only one way it possesses this info in the first place and that's its own radar.

Why is this significant ? It means the channel for data packets this Datalink is using, can handle real time radar data between Fighter(Grifo-346) <------> UCAV(SAR, Sensors).

The article you linked did not say it does not connect, but that it is not known whether they connect. We can say this is an area where we lack sufficient information. Though I'd be surprised if the A-50 datalink couldn't connect to the Su-27's, given they were developed at a similar point in time.

Nevertheless, it is well established that modern Russian fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S) have modern datalinks which was my original point.

We have no reason to dispute information coming from Dr. Carlo Kopp of Aussie Air power, he was a legendary aviation author with solid knowledge.

"Upgrades available for Su-27/30 include the encrypted TKS-2/R-098 (Tipovyi Kompleks Svyazi) Intra Flight Data Link (IFDL) which permits the networking of up to 16 Sukhoi fighters. It is not known whether the 5U15K-11 datalink designed for networking the A-50 AWACS and MiG-31 has been adapted to the Su-27/30, or whether a unique equivalent design is used. The TKS-2 was used effectively during the 2004 Cope India exercise against US F-15Cs"

So Dr. Carlo is saying this:

- SU-27/SU-30 never had any inherent DL, TKS-2 came as upgrades much later after Flanker family was already serving for decade+
- TKS-2 is Flanker exclusive, isolated system
- MIG-31BM, A-50 use different DL systems which were not compatible with Sukhois at the time Carlo wrote this article some 10 years ago. He is speculating that may be MIG-31BM and A-50 will get the same DL system that Sukhoi uses but have we seen that happening? No

Nobody including me disputed Ru-AF using datalinks. What my initial point has been, is the fact that Flanker's DL does not exist for Iran! If Russian fighters of Sukhoi, Mikoyan origin themselves could not exchange data how are we assuming that they will just do that with the Iranian network? Will Russia allow Iranian engineers to mess with their frontline fighter's sensitive electronics? The same Russia, whose clients like Iran, India, Egypt, and Vietnam have never changed a screw on Russian 4th Generation fighters (Chinese case is different, its too powerful, too valuable a client) without paying Russia first.

Quite possibly. It shouldn't be too difficult given systems on both sides are digital. Iran could use Russian or even Chinese (they also have had to integrate Russian tech into their military) help.

I'd hope any Su-35 purchase comes with AWACS purchases such as the new Beriev A-100.

There is not a single example where Russian 4th generation combat planes have ever received any local upgrade by their clients. Indians, Iran, Vietnam, Egypt all have local industrial baseline esp India and Iran but India is paying 62 Million USD/Su-30MK CDK kit to this day to Moscow and Iran's MIG-29 fleet is dying without MLU and avionics upgrade but we cant touch it either. Iran has built a F-5F from scratch with 4.0 Generation avionics, gave some of its F-4E/Ds a complete radar, avionics, armament upgrade, and carried out fair level upgradation of F-14A as well but what is the reason that IRIAF's MIG-29 9.12 fleet is still flying with without MLU and with obsolete most avionics of 400 KG heavy RPKL-29 N019 (MIG-23ML level) with no e-warfare suite? I mean they can atleast put Kowsar's avionics on MIG-29 to give it some relevance in modern combat which it currently lacks. Russians and Chinese do not like their clients pulling upgrades or modifications on their supplied stuff easily without them recieveing huge chunks of money. For 85 Million USD Iran will get a fighter SU-27M = SU-35S with:

- RCS of 10-15 m2
- IRBIS-E PESA radar (jammable) with tracking range of 100 KM
- R-77-1 BVR with a range of 100 KM
- No DL with Iranian network ???

In that price, Iran can get 3 x MIG-29M or 2 x MIG-35S. They have what Flanker has too and they fit in the local MIG infrastructure. My fear is that if this SU-35S deal ever become reality, it will suck life out of IRIAF's every other asset financially. If Nojeh Coup Mullahs ever allow, IRIAF should go for following:

- 50-60 MIG-29M/MIG-35
- 23 x MIG-29 9.12 of IRIAF recieving MLU+upgrade to SMT standard
- 200 RD-33M Turbofans for Kowsar-II
- 400 R-77-1 and 400 R-74

This will save IRIAF, or we can spend 12 Billion USD to create a 120 x SU-35S strong IRIAF by the end of this decade and retire everything else.
 

sanel1412

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F14A already have datalink, Just Iranian F14 came without it integrated,any way there is not need for cockpit ugrade or any Change, to install datalink...expecually for aircraft as F14,that already have it but came without it instaled...lot of old aircrafts, helicopters..etc Got ugrade to datalink without going over major Changes... Datalink module is not big...
 
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