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WudangMaster

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- BVR (procurement maybe???) We have heard of PL-12/15 during the Dowran upgrade and SRII project but to me seeing is believing
Mr. Azarmehr stated that kowsar can deploy the Fakour 90, though much of the missile's potential would be held back because of the limited radar compared to the awg9
 

drmeson

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Mr. Azarmehr stated that kowsar can deploy the Fakour 90, though much of the missile's potential would be held back because of the limited radar compared to the awg9

You are right. Utility of Fakour-90 on Kowsar is limited. Kowsar's Bayyenat-II (Grifo 346 ditto) has a search range of 110 Km and Track range of 93 KM for a small fighter (imagine a F-16). So lets say a Kowsar tracks a F-16C/D at 90-93 km, which turns back and races away using its 1.0 Mach linear dash, then Kowsar will have to chase the plane to keep illuminating it to guide the Fakour-90 being a SARH seeker. Imagine its a border incursion, if the enemy comes in to release a SOW/PGM and Kowsar goes up to intercept it at BVR ranges, the SARH guidance will force Kowsar to chase the escaping enemy which could lead it into an ambush. Case becomes different if Fakour-90 is ARH which it will be in form of Maghsoud (Fakour-90-2) which has a range of 200 KM with ARH. On the other hand, Fakour-90 on F-14AM means the SAIRAN digitalised AWG-9+ will keep illuminating the target for ~270 km so there is no easy escape for enemy. Mind you The F-14AM also carries ARH AIM-54+ (Babaei Missile Industries overhauled/upgraded 40 Units). So a pair of F-14AM can combined release 4 x Fakour-90 + 4 x AIM-54+ and climb up at 35000 ft to see the demise of enemy from distance.

But there is a bigger problem, the deployment of Fakour-90 on a Kowsar airframe is just too problematic.

- Fakhour-90 is atleast 450-500 KG. This means that at best a kowsar is going to lift two of these under wing with one 1040 ltr tanks. Hence, plane is already lifting 2000 KG without Sidewinders. Also the diameter of the missile is almost same as AGM-65 Maverick so there will be low ground clearance as was noted in F-20 Tigershark's tests with maverick.

- The air drag will be increased to the point that plane will have low G limits, climbe rate, pitch/roll/yaw mobility.

- RCS will enhance to the point that Kowsar will lose its small sized 1m2 RCS advantage at BVR ranges. An enemy armed with Meteor or AIM-120C will see it from distance and shoot their own BVR missile at Kowsar, which will be a sitting duck with compromised manuvering.

1656798528679.png


Only solution is to either procure PL-12 + PL-15 from CATIC, China or R-77AE from Russia. OR work on producing a local PL-12/15 R-77AE equivalent. We have Kowsar-I, in few years there will be Kowsar-II. What ARH LR-BVR missile will arm these fighters or future UCAV wingmen ? not Fakour-90 or Maghsoud. Those are for larger fighters and I believe will be retired along with F-14 or F-4 fleet.
 

mack8

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No I meant one which was practically a Saegheh/Kowsar in Splinter camo but with the turbofan.

It was hanging from a thread in an air show/exhibition and was presented by HESA.
If you or someone finds it would be interesting to see it.

Just some comments, i certainly don't agree with the over-optimism by some of you of iranian capability to build brand new F-5s and so on, but even upgrading the 60 F-5s with new avionics and airframe SLEP would be a great achievement, i see the F-5s serving primarily as LIFT and back-up for the F-14 and F-4 fleets.
Saeqeh and especially that horrible Qaher (among other such things) were nothing but pathetic propaganda attempts, with the money and time spend on putting two tails on an F-5 i'd rather add the IFR probe tested long time back, to actually increase their combat capability, so yeah whoever ordered the Saeqeh program to continue beyond the prototype was a moron.

Similarly the F-7s would serve same LIFT role for the MiG-29/Su-24/Su-22 fleets, no need to poo-poo it. Re MiG-29s, even an upgrade similar with the syrian or serbian ones, with improved radar, R-77 and Talisman ECM pods, and again perhaps the IFR probe tested years back, would be a great boost.

As to the Mirage F1, again why not but the Bayenat radar on it and new avionics, to add another valuable squadron of planes? Given Iran's situation every airframe worths it's weight in gold. I know they were trying to help when they gave the Su-25s to Iraq, i understand that, but i wouldn't even done that, i'm sure Russia could have provided some extra airframes.

I see lots of posts devoted to F-5 upgrades, but how about F-4 Dowran and F-14AM upgrades, how far are they along these days? Also any sort of hint as to an iranian copy/upgrade of AIM-7, if they put an ARH seeker on it that again would be a big boost for the F-4 and F-14 fleets, and even for a Mirage F1 upgrade.

PS : I see you've touched the F-14 upgrade above already.
PPS: A PL-12 copy/equivalent would make more sense indeed, as it could possibly be used on the F-5s as well.
 

drmeson

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If you or someone finds it would be interesting to see it.

yeah, I have been trying to locate it. It was presented by HESA so may give us clues. The airframe was basically Kowsar with the black large radome and a turbofan at the rear end of it.

Just some comments, i certainly don't agree with the over-optimism by some of you of iranian capability to build brand new F-5s and so on, but even upgrading the 60 F-5s with new avionics and airframe SLEP would be a great achievement, i see the F-5s serving primarily as LIFT and back-up for the F-14 and F-4 fleets.
Saeqeh and especially that horrible Qaher (among other such things) were nothing but pathetic propaganda attempts, with the money and time spend on putting two tails on an F-5 i'd rather add the IFR probe tested long time back, to actually increase their combat capability, so yeah whoever ordered the Saeqeh program to continue beyond the prototype was a moron.

Nobody is optimistic, at least I am not. I would have been more excited to see a HESA F-14 equivalent built from scratch in Iran than an F-5 but we had to start from somewhere. Iranian combat aviation has just begun to receive some attention. Still, the major fund goes to Missiles, Air defense, navy, space programs, etc. What I feel glad about is the fact that HESA + IEI have demonstrated that they can build a 4.0 generation fighter in Iran from scratch. Like even if we get zero planes from Russia or China in the future, IRIAF would not die. We have a local platform that has a modern radar(Grifo 346 built locally) + a modern e-warfare suite of ECM, Jammer, RWR, Chaff/flares + Datalink + very good aerial performance of F5/F20 family. If need be, we can have 300 of these to replace the entire aging fleet. Next-generation might have frontal reduced RCS, AESA radar with HOTAS and you have a proper modern fighter. So this has saved the future. Currently, this plane has a better avionics + e-warfare suite than F-14AM and MIG-29 in IRIAF so a 70-80 strong fleet of them is a major boost to IRIAF interceptor force at least.

Check out this thread for details on this plane.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/hesa-fighter-kowsar-program-current-and-next-generation.743327/

The production of Kowsar is going strange if you ask me. So far 18-24 airframes have been seen worked upon inside HESA. 14-20 in primer + 4 operational prototypes. I thought of SLEP as well that they are gonna ground the F-5EF squadrons one by one to create a large repository of structural parts of the F-5E/F airframe like longerons, vertical webs, etc for Kowsar while everything else is brand new. IRIAF currently has 5 squadrons of F-5E/F (60 airframes). But that is not happening so where have the 18-24 airframes of Kowsars that we have seen on HESA floors come from? Why waste money on building airframes from scratch. They should have taken the Israeli Kfir-C route of building a new airframe with parts used from old airframes. Whatever money is saved can go to R&D for Kowsar-II. IAI did the same with Kfir-C as a stop gap solution built from parts of Mirage-V with mid-3rd generation avionics at first that have now evolved to 4+ generation avionics with AESA and HOTAS in Kfir Block 60. But HESA is known to have made some very stupid decisions before.

Just some comments, i certainly don't agree with the over-optimism by some of you of iranian capability to build brand new F-5s and so on, but even upgrading the 60 F-5s with new avionics and airframe SLEP would be a great achievement, i see the F-5s serving primarily as LIFT and back-up for the F-14 and F-4 fleets.
Saeqeh and especially that horrible Qaher (among other such things) were nothing but pathetic propaganda attempts, with the money and time spend on putting two tails on an F-5 i'd rather add the IFR probe tested long time back, to actually increase their combat capability, so yeah whoever ordered the Saeqeh program to continue beyond the prototype was a moron.

Saeqeh was a tech demonstrator at best and nothing else. 6 were built from Vietnamese or Ethiopian F-5 airframes. The first one 3-7366 tested squared air intakes (failed), and larger radome (success). We had some detailed discussion once about whether the V-tail on an F-5E could even fly without FBW so electronic actuation for flight control seems to have been tested on them (we know Kowsar has some level FBW). The Sarir ejection seats and the landing gears too were tested on them. The last one Saeqeh-II was born with the same cockpit layout and avionics suite that Kowsar has. So that family was actual tech demos because of which some 60-80 Kowsars will Kowsar-I exist. Without them, Kowsar would not have been possible. Qaher was an R&D project that was misrepresented for political and financial gains by three stupid people, Ahmadinejad the politician + Hassan Parvaneh the fraudster from HESA + Ahmed Vahidi, the battle-hardened soldier turned politician with no knowledge of aviation. The project's blueprints may have ... may have ... come from whatever work these people did with OKB Mukhamedov on Shafagh low RCS AT. I could be wrong though. It's a different discussion though.

Similarly the F-7s would serve same LIFT role for the MiG-29/Su-24/Su-22 fleets, no need to poo-poo it. Re MiG-29s, even an upgrade similar with the syrian or serbian ones, with improved radar, R-77 and Talisman ECM pods, and again perhaps the IFR probe tested years back, would be a great boost.

MIG-29 fleet badly needs MLU and upgrades so if it happens for them then good otherwise I see them going in storage like how most of the F-14 fleet spent their life in 90s. Ironically ours are 9.12 with old RPKL-29 Radar and no e-warfare suite. They are basically MiIG-23ML in MIG-29 body with old Sapfir-29 system. According to Twitter aviation journalists, an extensive Russian-assisted MLU+Upgrade plan is being implemented for MIGS and a facility is already launched at Mehrabad for it. Not sure what to make of it. I would want them to ask Russia for more airframes. At least 50 more, as they ordered 48 more in 1990s. The current weapons package on MIGS will make them be beaten by even fully operationalized Kowsars in IRIAF let alone F-14AM.

If they are not upgraded by Russians, I would want HESA + IEI to put even a more improved Kowsar avionics package on them to keep them relevant in modern combat.

As to the Mirage F1, again why not but the Bayenat radar on it and new avionics, to add another valuable squadron of planes? Given Iran's situation every airframe worths it's weight in gold. I know they were trying to help when they gave the Su-25s to Iraq, i understand that, but i wouldn't even done that, i'm sure Russia could have provided some extra airframes.

Mirage F1EQ is a complicated platform with no deep infrastructure inside Iran to tackle it. What you are saying could be useful if we had some 100 airframes to create a strong fleet but we only have 23 of these. This plane has a bad reputation in IRIAF because it was beaten 34:1 at the hands of tomcat during the Iran-Iraq war (according to Tom cooper). Along with F-7N and F-5E fleet, these old relics need to go to save money and resources. They are offering nothing in IRIAF.

With Kowsar built from scratch (read about brand new prototype 3-7400), HESA can churn out as many airframes as required as long as there is cash. Which I believe is one of the reasons they got rid of entire squadrons of Su-22 and Su-25. For a 9-10 Million price tag you get a brand new Kowsar (7 million for the extensive SLEP + upgrade).

I see lots of posts devoted to F-5 upgrades, but how about F-4 Dowran and F-14AM upgrades, how far are they along these days? Also any sort of hint as to an iranian copy/upgrade of AIM-7, if they put an ARH seeker on it that again would be a big boost for the F-4 and F-14 fleets, and even for a Mirage F1 upgrade.

PS : I see you've touched the F-14 upgrade above already.
PPS: A PL-12 copy/equivalent would make more sense indeed, as it could possibly be used on the F-5s as well.

I did a slide on F-14 AM upgrade, I will post it here.
 

Hack-Hook

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You are right. Utility of Fakour-90 on Kowsar is limited. Kowsar's Bayyenat-II (Grifo 346 ditto) has a search range of 110 Km and Track range of 93 KM for a small fighter (imagine a F-16). So lets say a Kowsar tracks a F-16C/D at 90-93 km, which turns back and races away using its 1.0 Mach linear dash, then Kowsar will have to chase the plane to keep illuminating it to guide the Fakour-90 being a SARH seeker. Imagine its a border incursion, if the enemy comes in to release a SOW/PGM and Kowsar goes up to intercept it at BVR ranges, the SARH guidance will force Kowsar to chase the escaping enemy which could lead it into an ambush. Case becomes different if Fakour-90 is ARH which it will be in form of Maghsoud (Fakour-90-2) which has a range of 200 KM with ARH. On the other hand, Fakour-90 on F-14AM means the SAIRAN digitalised AWG-9+ will keep illuminating the target for ~270 km so there is no easy escape for enemy. Mind you The F-14AM also carries ARH AIM-54+ (Babaei Missile Industries overhauled/upgraded 40 Units). So a pair of F-14AM can combined release 4 x Fakour-90 + 4 x AIM-54+ and climb up at 35000 ft to see the demise of enemy from distance.

But there is a bigger problem, the deployment of Fakour-90 on a Kowsar airframe is just too problematic.

- Fakhour-90 is atleast 450-500 KG. This means that at best a kowsar is going to lift two of these under wing with one 1040 ltr tanks. Hence, plane is already lifting 2000 KG without Sidewinders. Also the diameter of the missile is almost same as AGM-65 Maverick so there will be low ground clearance as was noted in F-20 Tigershark's tests with maverick.

- The air drag will be increased to the point that plane will have low G limits, climbe rate, pitch/roll/yaw mobility.

- RCS will enhance to the point that Kowsar will lose its small sized 1m2 RCS advantage at BVR ranges. An enemy armed with Meteor or AIM-120C will see it from distance and shoot their own BVR missile at Kowsar, which will be a sitting duck with compromised manuvering.

View attachment 858743

Only solution is to either procure PL-12 + PL-15 from CATIC, China or R-77AE from Russia. OR work on producing a local PL-12/15 R-77AE equivalent. We have Kowsar-I, in few years there will be Kowsar-II. What ARH LR-BVR missile will arm these fighters or future UCAV wingmen ? not Fakour-90 or Maghsoud. Those are for larger fighters and I believe will be retired along with F-14 or F-4 fleet.
another solution work on something based on AIM-7, and produce something compared to envisioned Sparrow II that failed to materialize because limitation of electronic of 60s and 70s
 

drmeson

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another solution work on something based on AIM-7, and produce something compared to envisioned Sparrow II that failed to materialize because limitation of electronic of 60s and 70s

Ira only got some 350-400 AIM-7E2. Out of which half survived the war. Even if the Babaei group (which deals with A2A missiles development and overhauls) puts an ARH on the AIM-7E2 ditto airframe with a replicated motor (MK52) the range will still be 45 km which is just not enough for an ARH missile when the enemy coming at you is coming in with AIM-120C/D (C7 KSA, D US/UK) and Meteor (KSA, UK, France). Fatter/AIM-9P already gives Kowsar a passive seeking range at 35-40 km from all aspects so I see no point in AIM-7E2 replicas of Iran with some 45 KM range. It was a failed missile anyways which resulted in speeding up AIM-120 development in the 80s.

What Kowsar-I/II needs or will need is a 120-160 km ranging ARH with ECM that Kowsar-I/II, future UCAV wingmen can carry. It must have a max range of 160 KM with no escape zone of at least 60-70 KM, otherwise what is the point of having a long-range tracking radar on the aircraft?.

Development of Maghsoud fits the bill except the fact no fighter in IRIAF except F-14 will carry it. Seriously speaking, Iran needs to smuggle R-77AE/SD from Syria, Yemen, Kazakhastan, Venezuela and reverse engineer their airframes + motors and with a universal seeker ARH that can be used by atleast the entire interceptor force.

OR Purchase PL-12 + PL-15 like a good boi from China or above mentioned ones from Russia.

...........................................

Btw if anybody missed this pic a year ago, this is Maghsoud LR-BVR missile (or Fakour-90-2) for F-14AM fleet, to be tested. It supposedly has a range of ~200 km with powerful ARH seeker and ECM (keyaero). Unfortunately it seems to be as large and heavy as Fakour-90. So Unless they get F-14 fleet to atleast 50 airframe strong and all upgraded to F-14AM standards. I see no utility of this missile ? F-4E/D with Bayyenat-I radar barely can pull a tracking range of 110 KM (search 150 km)? (based on T/R elements compared to JL-10A) so it wont be using this missile either.

1656836370016.png
1656836429328.png
 

Hack-Hook

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Ira only got some 350-400 AIM-7E2. Out of which half survived the war. Even if the Babaei group (which deals with A2A missiles development and overhauls) puts an ARH on the AIM-7E2 ditto airframe with a replicated motor (MK52) the range will still be 45 km which is just not enough for an ARH missile when the enemy coming at you is coming in with AIM-120C/D (C7 KSA, D US/UK) and Meteor (KSA, UK, France). Fatter/AIM-9P already gives Kowsar a passive seeking range at 35-40 km from all aspects so I see no point in AIM-7E2 replicas of Iran with some 45 KM range. It was a failed missile anyways which resulted in speeding up AIM-120 development in the 80s.
aim-9 iran get had 10-15km range most , fatter has 40km . certainly beside electronics , engine technology also advanced much.
AIM-7 weight half of Fakour and is smaller so even if we manage to produce a 90km missile out of it, that would be a far more feasible solution for Kowsar BVR missile than anything derived from Fakour missile
Development of Maghsoud fits the bill except the fact no fighter in IRIAF except F-14 will carry it. Seriously speaking, Iran needs to smuggle R-77AE/SD from Syria, Yemen, Kazakhastan, Venezuela and reverse engineer their airframes + motors and with a universal seeker ARH that can be used by atleast the entire interceptor force.
honestly I rather we build our own missile. AIM-7 if modernized can become something comparable to PL-12 after all china built PL-12 after they mastered PL-11 which was a copy of AIM-7.

Btw if anybody missed this pic a year ago, this is Maghsoud LR-BVR missile (or Fakour-90-2) for F-14AM fleet, to be tested. It supposedly has a range of ~200 km with powerful ARH seeker and ECM (keyaero). Unfortunately it seems to be as large and heavy as Fakour-90. So Unless they get F-14 fleet to atleast 50 airframe strong and all upgraded to F-14AM standards. I see no utility of this missile ? F-4E/D with Bayyenat-I radar barely can pull a tracking range of 110 KM (search 150 km)? (based on T/R elements compared to JL-10A) so it wont be using this missile either.

1656836370016.png
1656836429328.png
well if in search mode it can detect a target 150km away then it would be a feasible missile for it as
1- the missile can lock on target even after it flight 2/3rd of it path and even then it can change its target.
2- you usually don't fire the missile at its extremity of its range
 

drmeson

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Ira only got some 350-400 AIM-7E2. Out of which half survived the war. Even if the Babaei group (which deals with A2A missiles development and overhauls) puts an ARH on the AIM-7E2 ditto airframe with a replicated motor (MK52) the range will still be 45 km which is just not enough for an ARH missile when the enemy coming at you is coming in with AIM-120C/D (C7 KSA, D US/UK) and Meteor (KSA, UK, France). Fatter/AIM-9P already gives Kowsar a passive seeking range at 35-40 km from all aspects so I see no point in AIM-7E2 replicas of Iran with some 45 KM range. It was a failed missile anyways which resulted in speeding up AIM-120 development in the 80s.

What Kowsar-I/II needs or will need is a 120-160 km ranging ARH with ECM that Kowsar-I/II, future UCAV wingmen can carry. It must have a max range of 160 KM with no escape zone of at least 60-70 KM, otherwise what is the point of having a long-range tracking radar on the aircraft?.

Development of Maghsoud fits the bill except the fact no fighter in IRIAF except F-14 will carry it. Seriously speaking, Iran needs to smuggle R-77AE/SD from Syria, Yemen, Kazakhastan, Venezuela and reverse engineer their airframes + motors and with a universal seeker ARH that can be used by atleast the entire interceptor force.

OR Purchase PL-12 + PL-15 like a good boi from China or above mentioned ones from Russia.

...........................................

Btw if anybody missed this pic a year ago, this is Maghsoud LR-BVR missile (or Fakour-90-2) for F-14AM fleet, to be tested. It supposedly has a range of ~200 km with powerful ARH seeker and ECM (keyaero). Unfortunately it seems to be as large and heavy as Fakour-90. So Unless they get F-14 fleet to atleast 50 airframe strong and all upgraded to F-14AM standards. I see no utility of this missile ? F-4E/D with Bayyenat-I radar barely can pull a tracking range of 110 KM (search 150 km)? (based on T/R elements compared to JL-10A) so it wont be using this missile either.

View attachment 858795 View attachment 858796

and ... btw Fakour-90B uses M-190 Solid motor not the M112 that was used for protoypes. The range or acceleration might have been improved.

1656847493992.png


1656847410926.png



https://www.radareghtesad.ir/news/5659/تغییرات-در-مهمترین-موشک-هوابه-هوای-ایرانی-گام-های-بلند-برای
 

drmeson

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aim-9 iran get had 10-15km range most , fatter has 40km . certainly beside electronics , engine technology also advanced much.
AIM-7 weight half of Fakour and is smaller so even if we manage to produce a 90km missile out of it, that would be a far more feasible solution for Kowsar BVR missile than anything derived from Fakour missile

honestly I rather we build our own missile. AIM-7 if modernized can become something comparable to PL-12 after all china built PL-12 after they mastered PL-11 which was a copy of AIM-7.


well if in search mode it can detect a target 150km away then it would be a feasible missile for it as
1- the missile can lock on target even after it flight 2/3rd of it path and even then it can change its target.
2- you usually don't fire the missile at its extremity of its range

- AIM-9P which Fatter is based upon has a range of almost 36 KM, Probably close to 40 if fired at a higher speed. But for some reason Fatter is a healthy 3 KG heavier (88 KG vs 85 KG) than AIM-9P despite having a composite body. Extra fuel ? Better seeker ? dual seeker ? something is 3 Kg heavier in it.

You know I was reading about AIM-9X Block II/III development and the USN itself is saying that it has a range of ~60 KM (more than 60 % increase in the current 22 miles range) Just by adding more fuel to the motor.

Iran has a local Fatter program for last 10+ years. They are so confident in this missile that they have made it into a A2A All aspect WVR for Kowsar + F-14AM, Naval SHORAD, an A2G Anti-tank variant etc. As a matter of fact it is one of the most successful projects of Iranian missile combat aviation industry that never got the spot light it deserved because its just a sidewinder in the end. It doesnt get the spotlight that Fakour-90 gets. So thats a possibility that they may just add more fuel to increase the range into BVR domain like AIM-9X Block II/III has. Same company that produced Fakours did not take any risk with Shalamche M112 motors and replicated an exact copy but they later changed it to M190 which now powers Fakour-90B so I won't be too surprised if they have a similar Fatter-BVR plan up the sleeve.

if this plan is implemented then IRST and HMD are a must in Kowsar's next generation. A local IRST options for IRIAF for the next generation of fighters exists in form local Khordad system's TIC-S-2 that can detect up to 150-300 km depending upon the signature strength. Its highly advanced focal plane array sensor provides very fast real-time image analysis. It is just 60 cm long, 26 cm wide easily integratable in a Kowsar size fighter. It can easily track even a semi-stealth low RCS fighter from distance while at around 2 x 60 - 70 KM Fatter-BVR can be released and Kowsar can leave the arena while turning its Bayyenat-II off and Sairan's Jammers on.

How do I know such a system will work? Its already happening on Karrar.

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Iran is one of those lucky countries that it has all the ingredients just in place for future developments. All we need is proper planners and management with vision. No more Parvaneh, Vahidi, Dehghan.

well if in search mode it can detect a target 150km away then it would be a feasible missile for it as
1- the missile can lock on target even after it flight 2/3rd of it path and even then it can change its target.
2- you usually don't fire the missile at its extremity of its range

According to a Fakour-90 article in an aviation magazine, they did try Fakour-90 on Dowran upgraded F-4E/D but due to the weight of the missile 3 x missiles could only be carried under-fuselage or inside pylons which means F-4E now had to fly with only internal fuel and plane was barely pulling 4 G's with them. A total disaster if you ask me. Besides, the plane will be able to barely track a target at ~110 Km so whats the point in carrying a 150 KM ranging missile ?

Fakour/Maghsoud are monster weapons if you ask me with ECM, long-range etc but they are for F-14AM and they will die with F-14 fleet's retirement which is why I think the sooner IRIAF gets a smaller LR-BVR the better. Be it PL-15 or R-37 or a local missile but thats a must.
 
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drmeson

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When I first heard of Kowsar in 2018, this model from an exhibition in 2015 came to my mind. A literal F-20.

may be there is an intention to create this thing in future.. but seeing is believing so no hopes.


1656875072633.png
 

mack8

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When I first heard of Kowsar in 2018, this model from an exhibition in 2015 came to my mind. A literal F-20.

may be there is an intention to create this thing in future.. but seeing is believing so no hopes.


View attachment 858916
Interesting but is this at a defence expo, or perhaps just a modelling expo, there's some biplane model in the backround. Perhaps it's just some what-if F-20 in iranian colours made by a modeller?

At any rate that single engine, twin tail, mid wing F-5 derivative i posted earlier actually looks like a genuinely decent project, pity it hasn't been followed through. Alongside the Mukhamedov M-ATF Shafaq they at least seem to have the potential for a genuine, competent iranian light fighter if there was the determination and leadership to carry one or the other through, but again morons and profiteers brough shame on the iranian aeronautical industry and image in general with their stunts. I can't believe it's close to 20 years since the Shafaq mock-up was shown, what a huge lost oportunity.

I say whoever is in charge of developing all these recent iranian SAM systems, which look competent, well designed and capable, put him in charge of aircraft development and double his pay!
 

mack8

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Ira only got some 350-400 AIM-7E2. Out of which half survived the war. Even if the Babaei group (which deals with A2A missiles development and overhauls) puts an ARH on the AIM-7E2 ditto airframe with a replicated motor (MK52) the range will still be 45 km which is just not enough for an ARH missile when the enemy coming at you is coming in with AIM-120C/D (C7 KSA, D US/UK) and Meteor (KSA, UK, France). Fatter/AIM-9P already gives Kowsar a passive seeking range at 35-40 km from all aspects so I see no point in AIM-7E2 replicas of Iran with some 45 KM range. It was a failed missile anyways which resulted in speeding up AIM-120 development in the 80s.

What Kowsar-I/II needs or will need is a 120-160 km ranging ARH with ECM that Kowsar-I/II, future UCAV wingmen can carry. It must have a max range of 160 KM with no escape zone of at least 60-70 KM, otherwise what is the point of having a long-range tracking radar on the aircraft?.

Development of Maghsoud fits the bill except the fact no fighter in IRIAF except F-14 will carry it. Seriously speaking, Iran needs to smuggle R-77AE/SD from Syria, Yemen, Kazakhastan, Venezuela and reverse engineer their airframes + motors and with a universal seeker ARH that can be used by atleast the entire interceptor force.

OR Purchase PL-12 + PL-15 like a good boi from China or above mentioned ones from Russia.

...........................................

Btw if anybody missed this pic a year ago, this is Maghsoud LR-BVR missile (or Fakour-90-2) for F-14AM fleet, to be tested. It supposedly has a range of ~200 km with powerful ARH seeker and ECM (keyaero). Unfortunately it seems to be as large and heavy as Fakour-90. So Unless they get F-14 fleet to atleast 50 airframe strong and all upgraded to F-14AM standards. I see no utility of this missile ? F-4E/D with Bayyenat-I radar barely can pull a tracking range of 110 KM (search 150 km)? (based on T/R elements compared to JL-10A) so it wont be using this missile either.

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Regarding an iranian AIM-7 copy, surely give the advances in technology and especially the experience in creating all these new SAM systems, motors, warheads, seekers etc. they can get perhaps 80-100km range out of such an up to date AIM-7 copy?

Actually that 9th Dey missile also looks like a good base for an AAM, is there info as to it's weight and size? Though i don't think it will be compatible with the recess launchers on F-4 and F-14, which probably is the main factor to consider when designing a new iranian BVR AAM.
 

drmeson

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Interesting but is this at a defence expo, or perhaps just a modelling expo, there's some biplane model in the backround. Perhaps it's just some what-if F-20 in iranian colours made by a modeller?

At any rate that single engine, twin tail, mid wing F-5 derivative i posted earlier actually looks like a genuinely decent project, pity it hasn't been followed through. Alongside the Mukhamedov M-ATF Shafaq they at least seem to have the potential for a genuine, competent iranian light fighter if there was the determination and leadership to carry one or the other through, but again morons and profiteers brough shame on the iranian aeronautical industry and image in general with their stunts. I can't believe it's close to 20 years since the Shafaq mock-up was shown, what a huge lost oportunity.

I say whoever is in charge of developing all these recent iranian SAM systems, which look competent, well designed and capable, put him in charge of aircraft development and double his pay!

-I dont focus much on these toy models. For all we know, it could have been a startup aviation company presenting its vision through models or whatever. I was just saying that I was hoping for something like this.

-I dont agree with this thinking that changing wings 1 foot above or putting another tail will just change something drastic in a plane. This ain't the 70s when a MIG-21 was beaten every time by an F-4 because F-4 could climb faster or had more faster dash. Today's aircraft are literally flying electronic laboratories. The one that can see the enemy first, jam adversary while save itself from jamming, has better electronic awareness, and fires missiles first wins. An F-35 would be beaten by an F-14 in speed and climb but that does not matter anymore. In IRIAF a fully operationalized Kowsar can beat a MIG-29 9.12 from distance which has much better climb rate, more turning rate, and whatnot but it has a lesser avionics suite so it will be beaten from BVR, jammed, blinded, sot at etc. I have been the following IRIAF since the 2000s and I was myself very negative about it, I am still not happy but in the last 4 years things have started to pick up at a slow pace but in some ways:

-We have a national fighter now. Like I said before if nothing else, We can make some 250 of these with upgrades for 3 billion USD. Avionics, radar, nav-comm etc are comparable to any 4.0 generation light combat fighter. It was a surprise trust me. For this initial production, they may use some parts from the repository (I hope the entire benign fleet of F-5E/F is dismantled for this requirement) but we know out of the current 4 operational aircrafts one was built from scratch (37400) so an amazing capability has been demonstrated. Forget it's an F-5 copied or driven airframe, just focus on the fact that it's a fighter that has slaughtered F-14, and F-15 in mock dogfights and it has modern avionics, radar, datalink etc.

- Local Turbojet is there to equip Kowsar-I/II or any future A2A UCAV as well. No more dependency in that domain. Its not a large turbofan but it will get the vehicle airborne. Also there is a local smaller very modern turbofan that probably ... might turn into a larger one in time.

-IRIAF is seriously getting into data linking itself with a network-centric air defense that involves long-range search/track radars (a GWACS network), Jammers, UCAVS, Air defense batteries/Ambush SAMS. BT's article about IRIAF operations during the Nagorno Karabakh war confirmed the F-14AM+Kowsar being part of this system (Sadly MIGS are not). One of the Generals in charge of the Kowsar program (Afshin Khajehfard, if you want to look) confirmed the efficient datalink with UCAVs, fighters etc. So what was a dead force a few years back is now getting into a bigger scheme of air defense so it will (a) get its deserved attention (b) well serve as part of the system so its weaknesses won't be there to exploit by the enemy as it won't be the only force they are fighting in a single zone. An intruder will have to deal with detection, tracking, jamming, and shooting from the ground and air all while their bases be attacked.

-Fakour-90 came out. It's an Long-range BVR missile that is extensively tested against jamming, for track-lock on very low RCS targets, and developed after years of research on Hawk clones and AIM-54. Reportedly, its production has been concluded with ~100+ missiles and a newer ARH version with ~200 KM range is coming from same company. The downside, we dont have any platform to fire it from except F-14AM (the upgraded ones).

- Quite an extensive upgradation on F-4E/D (not sure how many airframes) "Dowran" (comparable to JH-7 of PLAAF) and fair level one F-14A to F-14AM. I would count SU-22 upgradation here too by IRGC-AF but It's a stupid aircraft to be honest and the fleet is small.

-A growing fleet of MALE UCAVS. KAMAN-22 and FOTROS have been shown with SARs, ECM pods, LACM, and glide PGMs. That hints towards use as CAS, intruders with possible ELINT roles i future. Even some sort of a wingman is being created in form of a Karrar carrying a handsome ranging WVR IR-seeking missile. whatever it will lead to, the thought is there. We know Iran has one of the largest UCAV fleet in the world (Roughly ~300-320 quite heavily armed UCAV fleet). But that was not contributing to IRIAF. Now they seem to have come into this domain with KAMAN-22, FOTROS, KAMAN-12, ABABIL-5. The low RCS flying wing fleet of SHAHED-191/171 is not part of IRIAF yet but they may adapt them in the future or even if they dont they are going to share the same airspace with integration. They are there to intrude enemy airspace without being tracked even if detected by search radars (Israel had to rush F-35 to WVR ranges to track them after air defense failed).

-Extremely efficient Ambush SAM system ranging from SHORADS to LORADS. Separate topic but they are part of the Air space defense system. They are the biggest defender force of Iranian skies.

-Sudden rise of A2G munitions, Fajr ALBM, Glide PGMs, AL-ShCM, ALCM from attack aircraft, and UCAVS.

- Locally produced newer airborne radars + Avionics: Bayyenat-I on F-4E/D which looks similar to JL-10A, Bayyenat-II on Kowsar which is ditto of Grifo-346. Absar SAR on UCAVs, Another SAR radar that they revealed with the newer Shahed-129, can not remember its name. With all locally produced e-warfare systems, navigations etc I dont care if the origin was foreign. This is huge for a country that 10-15 years back was flying radar less Vietnamese rebuilt F-5E as a "local fighter" and used to show APQ-153's antenna change as a "big upgrade".

Point is, things are still not there but its better than those times when stupid people were in charge oflocal "F/A-18" by welding tails to damaged F-5 airframes or presenting mockup concepts as 5th generation in-production aircraft. For a better future, all we need now is:

-MIG fleet MLU+upgradation and possible expansion if airframes can be arranged
-Kowsar-II with AESA/HOTAS, a light 4+ generation interceptor
-Local lighter BVR missile

... With proper $$$ flow + keeping Nojeh coup fearing Akhoonds away, this system will grow into a strong AD unit of some 200 x all 4.0-4+ generation interceptors + multilayered integrated AD. Again something is better than nothing.

Regarding an iranian AIM-7 copy, surely give the advances in technology and especially the experience in creating all these new SAM systems, motors, warheads, seekers etc. they can get perhaps 80-100km range out of such an up to date AIM-7 copy?

Actually that 9th Dey missile also looks like a good base for an AAM, is there info as to it's weight and size? Though i don't think it will be compatible with the recess launchers on F-4 and F-14, which probably is the main factor to consider when designing a new iranian BVR AAM.

Still not in favor of AIM-7 because we have AIM-7E2 with 45 KM range. It will be better to rather add more range to already in the production Fatter (slight heavier AIM-9P) to AIM-9X BlK II/III range.

No intention has ever been shown to adapt Taer-2B missile as AAM. Although, I remember discussions among members of it becoming a MICA replica if adapted as AAM.
 
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Hack-Hook

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- AIM-9P which Fatter is based upon has a range of almost 36 KM, Probably close to 40 if fired at a higher speed. But for some reason Fatter is a healthy 3 KG heavier (88 KG vs 85 KG) than AIM-9P despite having a composite body. Extra fuel ? Better seeker ? dual seeker ? something is 3 Kg heavier in it.
maybe different engine
but about AIM-9p , its delivery started at 1978 are you sure we get those not the previous version that its delivery began from 1972 ?
the difference in weight maybe is because we developed it separately from AIM-9p and its not an aim-9p reverse engineered missile, so there are those changes in weight.
 

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