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Hack-Hook

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The T-72S MBT is an example
did they allow us to produce engine for it ? no they want us go to them for the engine
Krasnopol laser-guided artillery round or at least samples thereof based upon which Iran is producing its own variant (Washington sanctioned a Russian firm for this),
i didnt saw that round in iran and they are not that similar
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Kilo submarines
that they refused to upgrade and they gave us them when they were srelling anything after fall of ussr
AK-103 assault rifles
that effectively stopped our indigenous rifle production , they gave that to us after we start producing our rifles
The Tor-M1 is also a top of the line AD system and examples received by Iran had not been sabotaged by Russia.
they were the first versions of Tor-m1 with limited channels ,
RPG-29's, RPO-A's, MRO-A's
we already got our hands on different variant from other sources and the one we get from Russia for example kronet was export version that in one case hezbollah fired 3 or 5 I don't recall exactly at an Israeli jeep and only one hit it
 

Hack-Hook

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The equipment to produce what HESA is producing nowadays was not there prior to the Islamic Revolution. The US never sold Iran a production line for F-5's. Moreover none of the key electronic components of the Kowsar have anything to do with those of the original F-5. And none of them are based on US-made models.
the one that kept our airforce airworthy during the war were there and the rest built upon them so we see current Hesa
and the deal was there top maintain F-5 and more , have you seen usa go to any court for iran building aircraft based on it , nor the less if we build anything based on YF-17 they also can't go to any court and complain
Iran did modify and upgrade Russian weaponry as well. You stated as much with regards to the long range radar. We could add examples such as the S-200 (several upgrades over the years), the SA-6 and other such systems.
not aircraft , the only one is An-140 and we got it from Ukraine not Russia
on other hand in aircraft we have shafaq that they abandoned in mid work and later produced Yak-130 or mig-29 they refused to upgrade or prov ide engine for the fleet
 

SalarHaqq

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did they allow us to produce engine for it ? no they want us go to them for the engine

Because before 1979, western regimes allowed Iran to produce tank engines... not. How unforgivably scandalous of Russia that they agreed to sell Iran a top notch MBT, agreed to assembly inside Iran, but wouldn't go as far as acquiescing to engine ToT! Only a sworn enemy state would display such audacity! Marg bar Rusie, marg bar Chin! :D

Honestly, Russia supplied Iran with a very useful item in the T-72S. Isn't this shifting the goal posts, the question was whether Iran received anything of worth from Russia and the answer is therefore yes.

i didnt saw that round in iran and they are not that similar
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US intelligence will have sanctioned that Russian company based on some kind of data.

that they refused to upgrade and they gave us them when they were srelling anything after fall of ussr

Doesn't take away from the fact that they were sold to Iran by Russia's choice and that they're an important asset in the Iranian Navy to this day.

that effectively stopped our indigenous rifle production , they gave that to us after we start producing our rifles

Iran's continuing to produce certain locally designed rifles. Moreover we can't have it both ways ie complain that Russia supposedly didn't sell Iran anything to write home about, and then also complain that by selling something valuable, they will impede domestic production.

they were the first versions of Tor-m1 with limited channels ,

They were still sophisticated weapons and in use by Russian armed forces. Also Iran appears to have received or locally developed certain components from the Tor-M2.

we already got our hands on different variant from other sources and the one we get from Russia for example kronet was export version that in one case hezbollah fired 3 or 5 I don't recall exactly at an Israeli jeep and only one hit it

You're suggesting Russia deliberately sold Iran faulty equipment? That's absurd. Also I'd like to see evidence for Iran receiving the cited rocket-propelled grenade launchers from other sources.
 
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SalarHaqq

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the one that kept our airforce airworthy during the war were there and the rest built upon them so we see current Hesa

Iran had to resort to smuggling in spare parts and to locally manufacture tools and machinery in order to keep her fleet airworthy. The F-5 was the least instrumental of Iran's fighter jets, and I very much doubt even that could be fully maintained merely using the gear acquired under the shah.

HESA's current output wouldn't have been remotely possible with any of the equipment purchased before 1979.

and the deal was there top maintain F-5 and more , have you seen usa go to any court for iran building aircraft based on it , nor the less if we build anything based on YF-17 they also can't go to any court and complain

not aircraft , the only one is An-140 and we got it from Ukraine not Russia
on other hand in aircraft we have shafaq that they abandoned in mid work and later produced Yak-130 or mig-29 they refused to upgrade or prov ide engine for the fleet

The Iranian government was just another measly US vassal back then, it's authoritarian monarch having his palace rigged with listening devices installed by the Americans and not being authorized to conduct independent policy at the service of Iran's national interests.

This is the price to pay for an F-5 maintenance facility and other bread crumbs, but nothing like the domestic defence industry Iran is enjoying today. You can't take this fundamental variable out of the picture when comparing these things. Sorry, but for my part I will happily opt for current parameters any day of the week.

And by the way, Iran did upgrade her Su-22 fighters, which are of Russian origin. Didn't trigger any judicial response from Moscow.
 
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Hack-Hook

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Because western regimes allowed Iran to produce tank engines before 1979...
don't recall saying that at all. I said if we invested a quarter of what we paid Russia for those engines in producing tank engine we could built that . what i say is if instead of paying Germans design a car engine for us every 5-6 years and make a celebration for it as national engine , we give the contract to our young engineers (the ones that because they can't find adequate job here , go to Germany and get employed there ) we already have mastered the art of buildings light ands probably heavy engines by now
US intelligence will have sanctioned that Russian company based on some kind of data.
don't knew but not certainly for transferring the knew how of producing those shells
Doesn't take away from the fact that they were sold to Iran and that they're an important asset in the Iranian Navy.
to me the important asset is Fateh Submarine not Kilos and sadly the project seriously is in needs of investment,
Firstly Iran's continuing to produce certain locally designed rifles, secondly you can't have it both ways: complain that Russia supposedly didn't sell anything to write home about to Iran, and then complain that by selling something of worth, they impeded production of domestic types.
my complain is not they don't give us anything , my complain is they give us equipment only after we produced something of the same caliber or better
and some people in our military instead of giving the contract to Iranian company , gladly give it to foreign company as if we owe them a never ending gratitude
They were still highly sophisticated weapons and still in use by Russian armed forces. Also Iran appears to have received or locally developed certain components from the Tor-M2.
no , we simply upgraded those tor-m1 ourself after facing its limitation and gladly we soon move to our own design after it become ready for being incorporated in our armed force (sadly it take several years between unveiling and being used by armed force)
You're suggesting Russia deliberately sold Iran faulty equipment? Absurd contention. Also I'd like to see evidence for Iran receiving the cited rocket-propelled grenade launchers from other sources.
not faulty one , but the equipment lack consistency in hitting target , maybe its because of subpar Russians electronic , maybe its because of error in its software maybe because of something else . what i say is when they sold us them they forget to tell us that part.
and at least RPG-29 was widespread in Syria

And by the way, Iran did upgrade her Su-22 fighters, which are of Russian origin.
oh those su-22 , what exactly Iran did with them ? and how we managed that?
have you wondered why the equipment we showed for it all relay on the weapon itself for hitting the target not airplane . we didn't touched the airplane that much , we just made it compatible with weapon we made for our F-4s and believe me the weapons we had or developed for our F-4s are in a different league compared to what Russia ever produced for Su-22
 
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SalarHaqq

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don't recall saying that at all.

True however you seemed to be insinuating Iran's defence industry owes the US regime more.

I said if we invested a quarter of what we paid Russia for those engines in producing tank engine we could built that . what i say is if instead of paying Germans design a car engine for us every 5-6 years and make a celebration for it as national engine , we give the contract to our young engineers (the ones that because they can't find adequate job here , go to Germany and get employed there ) we already have mastered the art of buildings light ands probably heavy engines by now

Possible, I won't argue that. My only counter-point being the time this would have taken with regards to the urgency of acquiring a modern MBT. Still, with these T-72S kits Russia gave Iran a much better deal than anything western regimes had been willing to offer prior to the Revolution.

don't knew but not certainly for transferring the knew how of producing those shells

In that case Iran may have received a good couple of laser-guided shells to study in view of technological indigenization. Russians are aware of Iranian proficiency at reverse engineering, they know full well that selling Iran only three to four examples of such items equals potential Iranian-made equivalents just a few years down the line.

to me the important asset is Fateh Submarine not Kilos and sadly the project seriously is in needs of investment

Agreed, Fateh is of much greater significance but for a lengthy period the Kilos used to be Iran's only attack submarines, and some western analysts continue to view them as a potential threat to this day or did so until some time ago at least.

my complain is not they don't give us anything , my complain is they give us equipment only after we produced something of the same caliber or better
and some people in our military instead of giving the contract to Iranian company , gladly give it to foreign company as if we owe them a never ending gratitude

Much better than fielding glitzy overpriced F-14's while being deprived of sovereignty.

And frankly, I don't know of too many countries as focused as Iran on self-sufficiency, especially in the military realm. So these people won't be excessively numerous or influential.

no , we simply upgraded those tor-m1 ourself after facing its limitation

An upgrade that looks suspiciously similar to the Russian original, but okay. In any case it's another item obtained from Russia which Iran could work on. How many more years would Iranian experts have had to spend on their drawing boards and on testing ranges if the 'flawed' Tor-M1 wasn't available to them?

not faulty one , but the equipment lack consistency in hitting target , maybe its because of subpar Russians electronic , maybe its because of error in its software maybe because of something else . what i say is when they sold us them they forget to tell us that part

But what merchant will advertize possible shortcomings in the commodities they have on offer? Heard similar stories about western weaponry though, latest example from Ukrainians complaining about the garbage quality of much vaunted US M-777 howitzers (which western propaganda attempted to sell as a "game changer" in the war).
 
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Hack-Hook

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True however you seem to be insinuating Iran's defence industry owes the US regime more.
Iran defense doctrine owes to Iran the most , its true that regular army inherited many of its war doctrine from USA universities , but overall Iran defense doctrine is asymmetrical warfare and that's owed to people like Shahid Chamran not any western or eastern country.
Yes possible, but then Iran would have had to spend far more time on developing the remaining parts of an indigenous MBT, wouldn't she. Still, with these T-72S kits Russia offered Iran a much better deal than anything western regimes had been willing to do prior to the Revolution.
if in last twenty years they didn't manage those parts in Zo-alfaqar project i don't knew what to say . but if you look at Iranian military project it was always propulsion that held us back and that problem owed to two things or chronic problem in producing semiconductors that nobody seems to be interested in and our problem with modern metallurgy , if we fix those two the limit will be Sky
and that needs investment in science based companies that work in those fields
Fateh is of greater significance but for years the Kilos used to be Iran's only attack submarines, and some western analysts continue to view them as a potential threat to this day (or at least until some time ago).
the kilos are potential threat ,but honestly the real threat is project 636 not project 877
they are relatively silent but they lack modern equipment and design features , Iran navy needs to put them aside in favor of Fateh and our next generation submarine . just with the money we spend on maintain and overhauling them , God know how many fateh we could build or we could develop of fuel cell propulsion system for submarines to truly make them black hole .
and again don't forget when they sold those submarines to us .
An upgrade that looks suspiciously similar to the Russian original, but okay.
not really , our radars on our shortrange air defense are different and a hack we made for Tor-M1 are also look different from the Russian one if you look closer
What merchant will advertize possible shortcomings in the commodities they have on offer? I've heard similar stories about western weaponry, latest example from Ukrainians complaining about the garbage quality of much vaunted US M-777 howitzers (which western propaganda tried to sell as a "game changer" in the war :lol: ).
m-777 can be a game changer(to some extent as its towed not self propelled) but not the monkey version stripped down that Ukraine got.
west don't care about Ukraine , they don't even consider them as European , they just get a golden opportunity to weaken Russia war machine , if you had found such opportunity to weaken Israel war machine would you let it pass ?
 

SalarHaqq

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Iran defense doctrine owes to Iran the most , its true that regular army inherited many of its war doctrine from USA universities , but overall Iran defense doctrine is asymmetrical warfare and that's owed to people like Shahid Chamran not any western or eastern country.

I was talking defence industries rather than doctrine. Infrastructure-wise as well as in terms of scientific and technical expertise, Iran's defence industries owe hardly anything to the pre-Revolution period.

When it comes to weaponry sampled for reverse-engineering, some items transferred by the west before 1979 saw prominent domestic upgrades and production (like the TOW missiles), but they were sold to Iran at a time when she had no serious reverse-engineering competence. Otherwise NATO regimes would never have equipped Iran with said armaments.

The Russian Federation however made some weapons systems available to Iran all the while of being aware that they'll get disassembled, studied in minute detail and that they'll end up boosting Iran's domestic defence industries. Because meanwhile Iran had acquired solid reverse-engineering and indigenous R&D and manufacturing skills.

This shows that in the global south the US regime is looking to subdue its clients, whereas Russia is ready to establish ties on equal footing. Of course Moscow may hold back on making attractive offers but at least it will not condition bilateral relations upon vassalage, unike the zio-American empire.

Now when it comes to doctrine, indeed the Islamic Republic's conception is opposite to US thinking in practically every aspect (Iranian focus on asymmetry over hubris-laden, self-defeating race for so-called "full spectrum dominance"; reliance upon missiles, UCAV's, light submarines and so on over an expensive air force, bulky destroyers etc).

just with the money we spend on maintain and overhauling them , God know how many fateh we could build or we could develop of fuel cell propulsion system for submarines to truly make them black hole .

When the Kilos were purchased Iranian naval industries hadn't matured enough to give birth to something like the Fateh or even Ghadir. Thus the Kilos offered kind of a stop gap solution in the underwater department.

not really , our radars on our shortrange air defense are different and a hack we made for Tor-M1 are also look different from the Russian one if you look closer

I'm referring to a radar-like square component (don't know what it exactly is) present on Iranian Tor-M1's but similar if not identical in looks to a certain part of the Tor-M2.

m-777 can be a game changer(to some extent as its towed not self propelled) but not the monkey version stripped down that Ukraine got.

I've no doubt that Russia would overcome the standard version of these howitzers as well. Ukraine would need far more than that to be able to turn the tide.

west don't care about Ukraine , they don't even consider them as European , they just get a golden opportunity to weaken Russia war machine ,

Western regimes don't care about any of their so-called "allies", in fact vassals. And didn't care about Iran prior to the Revolution either (just saw Iran as one of many tools in their deterrence strategy against the USSR and as an enforcer of zio-American interests in the Persian Gulf).
 
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Ich

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Mh, over all me have the impression that Iran developed well if i take all the circumstances in the last 40 years into account. Iran managed to hold open the door to not get bombed/nuked while developing. Me think there are some really wise men in Iran making Iran still is alive and day to day stronger.
 

jauk

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Mh, over all me have the impression that Iran developed well if i take all the circumstances in the last 40 years into account. Iran managed to hold open the door to not get bombed/nuked while developing. Me think there are some really wise men in Iran making Iran still is alive and day to day stronger.
I’ll go further and say Iran would NOT have developed as well if not under the circumstances you alluded to. It would be close to an SA look n feel but with extremes in wealth and poverty and no tech worth mentioning. One can imagine it would be 'Turkey-like' as well. Neither good alternatives.
 
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strateger

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Hypothetical situation. Let's say there is an airbase in Syria for Iran to work alongside Russian and Syrian forces.

Iran has the following assets in the base.

1.) 42 SU-22 bombers with IRGC upgrade package and new avionics.
2.) 24 Kowsar
3.) 24 Panha Toufan combat helicopters
4.) 12 Shahed-129 drones
5.) Fateh-110 missiles and launchers
6.) Bavar-373 air defense systems
7.) Tor air defense systems

Same situation... but in southern Ukraine instead, given what we know about current conflict.

How lethal is this deployment? Are the modernized/new SU-22's ineffective? Get shot down? Kowsar? Etc
 

TheImmortal

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Hypothetical situation. Let's say there is an airbase in Syria for Iran to work alongside Russian and Syrian forces.

Iran has the following assets in the base.

1.) 42 SU-22 bombers with IRGC upgrade package and new avionics.
2.) 24 Kowsar
3.) 24 Panha Toufan combat helicopters
4.) 12 Shahed-129 drones
5.) Fateh-110 missiles and launchers
6.) Bavar-373 air defense systems
7.) Tor air defense systems

Same situation... but in southern Ukraine instead, given what we know about current conflict.

How lethal is this deployment? Are the modernized/new SU-22's ineffective? Get shot down? Kowsar? Etc

Depends on how much PGMs you have to use. That many aircraft will burn thru hundreds of PGMs a month. If being pushed to the limit of full scale war.

Depends on knowledge of Ukraine’s radar radiation and failure as well as location of long range air defense. If either is caught in radar, high likehood of being shot down by a modern air defense system. Ukraine has shot down SU-30 and SU-34 (among other jets), but mostly SU-25’s

Right now what’s holding Russia back besides major UAVs with PGM assets is PGMs for their helicopters and fighter jets. A lot of FAB’s being dropped.

Russia is playing conservative because it doesn’t know where all Ukrainian air defense is. West keeps shipping more in. Thus long distance strikes are done by CMs and fighter jets are usually near the front line. Which again was Soviet Union doctrine anyway. They weren’t an air superiority force like USAF. There goal was to always defend the POC (point of control) on the frontline and hammer the enemy while keep enemy fighters away from the frontline as much as possible.

Thus Russia needs:

1) PGMs

2) Drones like Ababil and Shahed armed with PGMs for behind enemy lines strategic targeting

3) Iranian cobra is not as strong as Aligator, but Iranian Cobras can fly with better inventory of PGM than Alligator right now

4) SU-22/Kowsar is not better than SU-34....again issue is lack of long distance PGMs not the aircraft itself

5) F-110 is more accurate than Iskander based on limited data. But Iskanders haven’t changed the course of war and how much of an upgrade is it to use a BM over a CM when enemy air defenses are only targeting high value aircraft and choppers?

The issue here is real time critical targeting data. You can only strike what you see or known from data gathering. So unless the target bank is filled with HVTs, F-110 won’t change the course of the war.
 
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Hack-Hook

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Hypothetical situation. Let's say there is an airbase in Syria for Iran to work alongside Russian and Syrian forces.

Iran has the following assets in the base.

1.) 42 SU-22 bombers with IRGC upgrade package and new avionics.
2.) 24 Kowsar
3.) 24 Panha Toufan combat helicopters
4.) 12 Shahed-129 drones
5.) Fateh-110 missiles and launchers
6.) Bavar-373 air defense systems
7.) Tor air defense systems

Same situation... but in southern Ukraine instead, given what we know about current conflict.

How lethal is this deployment? Are the modernized/new SU-22's ineffective? Get shot down? Kowsar? Etc
that airbase i say have inadequate air defense , have wrong drones , and about Su-22s

well we modified the su-22 to be able to use weapons we developed for our f-4 those weapons and bombs have a range of 60 - 100km and the cruise missiles even more
the Russians problem is not the type of airplane but the type of ammunition it use and so in the mentioned base if we send them iron bombs , those airplanes don't have any chance for long survival or do any meaningful bombing , if we send smart bomb and glide weapons and cruise missile, they are not bad bombers.

as for missile instead of Shahed - 129 my choice would be Mohajer - 6 or Ababil - 5 thats in the case the operation area is not contested , then i prefer to use Saeqeh and Shahed -191 and variety of low rcs drone . also some suicide drones.
for the missiles instead of fateh-110 in such if the place is near enemy border , my choice is Fajr-5 if it has some distance then Fateh-110 is ok but consider the fact that Fateh-110 is old tech and i don't knew if we still had any active , but syria certainly have some missile based on it.

and for air defense one Bavar-373 and some Tor won't cut it at all , they easily get saturated . I'll send a battalion of 3rd of Khordad and some short range air defense also you need something to act as CIWs
 

Hack-Hook

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F-110 is more accurate than Iskander based on limited data. But Iskanders haven’t changed the course of war and how much of an upgrade is it to use a BM over a CM when enemy air defenses are only targeting high value aircraft and choppers?
fateh-110 itself is not more accurate , the next generations become more accurate , and we no longer produce it , it replaced by fath-360 Smaller, lighter , same range and more percise and each launcher carry 3-6
1401012909281678625152774.jpg
 

drmeson

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Hypothetical situation. Let's say there is an airbase in Syria for Iran to work alongside Russian and Syrian forces.

Iran has the following assets in the base.

1.) 42 SU-22 bombers with IRGC upgrade package and new avionics.
2.) 24 Kowsar
3.) 24 Panha Toufan combat helicopters
4.) 12 Shahed-129 drones
5.) Fateh-110 missiles and launchers
6.) Bavar-373 air defense systems
7.) Tor air defense systems

Same situation... but in southern Ukraine instead, given what we know about current conflict.

How lethal is this deployment? Are the modernized/new SU-22's ineffective? Get shot down? Kowsar? Etc

1) 42 SU-22 bombers with IRGC upgrade package and new avionics. They carry
- SOW Fajr ALBM + Ya-Ali ALCM + Yasin + Balaban Glide PGMs
- ECM pods, RWR+Jammers, EO/IR Trackers.

2.) 24 Kowsar, armed with HMD slaved HOBS and a reliable BVR system like PL-12/PL-15. They fly in groups of 4-6 fighters carrying 2 x WVR + 2 x BVR (one external tank) with datalinked 2 x Shahed-Saegheh with EO/IRST and 1 x ELINT KAMAN-22 within the Airdefence envelope.

3.) 24 Panha Toufan combat helicopters.

4.) 20 x Shahed-171 for their low RCS + KAMAN-22, carrying ECM pods, RWR + EO/IRST, data linked with KOWSAR and Air defense batteries all the time.

5.) 20 x Raad-500 + 10 x Dezful + Hoveyzeh CM. Mobile platforms + Underground silos platforms for BMs.

6.) 2 x Bavar-373 air defense systems. Supported by
- One OTHR Search radar deep into the Syrian territory. Always looking into Israel, and Turkey.
- Two layers of Track radars (at least 300-400 KM range) both PESA, AESA
- ECCM stations + TAHA 1400 Jammers.

7.) 2 x Tor-M1 air defense systems.

8.) 10 x fast Mobile cars with 4 x Misagh-2 Manpads


........... Israelis won't get near this base easily.
 

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