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SalarHaqq

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or oth , radars look like Russians but they are not the same ,

There is enough resemblance to suggest some degree of technical cooperation.

and have you wondered why what Russians gave us have the range restricted inside our country and what or technician managed to product have a range well beyond Europe border ?

Those OTH radars' range isn't limited to Iran's borders.

they don't care if Iran get balkanized unless it clash with their interest , their nearest ally in middle-east was Syria and look did they were concerned about its balkanization or the country being bombed day and night by a rouge state ?

Yes, they were hence why they joined Iran in pushing back the NATO- and zionist-backed insurgency.

As for the zionist air strikes, they don't even begin to scratch the status quo in Syria. With Russia present in Syria, the zionist cannot do what it'd take to achieve their strategic objective of replacing the current government in Damascus with an anti-Iranian one.

Iran falling will be seen as a direct existential threat by Moscow, because NATO will put russophobic elements in control of the entities resulting from Iran's break up. As they've endeavored to do in every country bordering Russia.
 

Hack-Hook

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I was happy when we heard of SU-25 and SU-22 being transferred to Iraq and Syria.
sadly IRGC is playing with Su-22 instead of sending it back to Iraq and invest in kowsar project. such waste of resource , the must they can modernize it is as much as India did and we saw how they fared against Pakistan , first bombing some farm instead of their target , and then get blown out of the sky before even seeing enemy airplane .
In fact, Iran is one (maybe the only) country in the world to get a very high tech US asset of its time (F-14) granted for export.
Israel also was offered F-14 , but their threat was something different from Iran ,we wanted interceptors against Russians airplanes , they wanted Aircraft to bomb Arab countries so we choose f-14 and they choose f-15
So Russia not giving ToT of SU-35 makes sense as it would be the equivalent of US giving ToT of F-14 back then.
the problem is Russia even don't give it for Mig-29
To my knowledge the zionist regime didn't make a request for those assets and in terms of military hardware hadn't had any request turned down by Washington so far.
they wanted F-22, their lobby in congress tried for it by they failed
and similar statements suggestive of a western-apologetic / pro-western mindset
well , at least , usa transfered the technology to maintain AH-1 and F-5 to iran , i'd be happy if Russia didn't get out of the Shafaq project we had together and then produce Yak-130 on its own, our didn't deny us upgrading our mig-29 or let not talk about S-300.
whenever people talk about Russia those things will come to my mind.

while Russia and China are partners no matter their record in this regard.
that's not learning from history , and repeating past mistake , russia since 400 years ago considered Iran as an adversary that had to tolerate in middle-east . they never considred us an ally or partner .

In fact a thread dedicated to the subject should be eye-opening, as it would probably lead to a revision of certain misconceptions long held by many. Apart from the UAE's expected purchase of the Su-75, I can't think of a particularly noteworthy defence contract between Russia and the PGCC regimes. All in all, one can't say Moscow treated them a lot better than Iran when it comes to arms deals.
look at what Russia offered them , not what Russia managed to sale to them because they decided they like American and European equipment better
 

Hack-Hook

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Russia fits the criteria to be termed a strategic partner. It conducted a major joint military operation alongside Iran in Syria.
only because their naval base , they didn't care when Israel bombed Syria left and right or USA balkanized it or turkey get another chunk of north of Syria
 

SalarHaqq

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well , at least , usa transfered the technology to maintain AH-1 and F-5 to iran , i'd be happy if Russia didn't get out of the Shafaq project we had together and then produce Yak-130 on its own, our didn't deny us upgrading our mig-29 or let not talk about S-300.

The US did everything to keep Iran dependent, as it does with all its allies in the global south. Under the shah regime Iran was a typical vassal state deprived of sovereignty whose king's palace was riddled with bugging devices installed by the neo-colonial masters, as indicated by Court Minister Alam in his memoirs. This is the price to pay for fancy F-14's Iran could not operate without US involvement, and for some AH-1 and F-5 maintenance facilities.

Today by contrast Iran is one of the most independent nations in the entire world.

whenever people talk about Russia those things will come to my mind.

Those who have no desire for a return to vassalage will try not to have a selective memory, therefore the whole picture will come to their minds including the successful joint military operation in Syria, useful Russian weapons transfers, the standing ovations for seyyed Raisi at the Douma etc.

that's not learning from history , and repeating past mistake , russia since 400 years ago considered Iran as an adversary that had to tolerate in middle-east . they never considred us an ally or partner .

By that logic the US should never have proceeded to stomping Iran from 1953 onwards. Mossadegh thought they would help Iran against the Britons based on Washington's previous record, but he was proven wrong.

Contemporary Russia is neither the Tsarist empire nor the USSR. Iran and Russia today are strategic partners unlike anytime in the past and this is a fact.
 
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Hack-Hook

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There is enough resemblance to suggest some degree of technical cooperation.
we get some export version , then our technicians worked hard day and night to reach that , we get a 400km radar and turned it into 1000 and 3000 km real OTH radar of our design. its not because Russia gave us the design of their 3000km radar in-fact their long range oth radars are totally look different from our for example Sepehr Radar
Those OTH radars' range isn't limited to Iran's borders.
you can put them at the border and say yes they have range way beyond Iran border , you are welcome to put them at central Iran and get anything of them
Yes, they were hence why they joined Iran in pushing back the NATO- and zionist-backed insurgency.
as I say they did that to protect Latakia naval base, nothing else as they didn't do shit about Idlib or the areas that Kurds control. Syria effectively balkanized.
As for the zionist air strikes, they don't even begin to scratch the status quo in Syria. With Russia present in Syria, the zionist cannot do what it'd take to achieve their strategic objective of replacing the current government in Damascus with an anti-Iranian one.
they effectively bomb anyplace in Syria and Russia only watch. never see a single time their air-defense get activated
Iran falling will be seen as a direct existential threat by Moscow, because NATO will put russophobic elements in control of the entities resulting from Iran's break up. As they've endeavored to do in every country bordering Russia.
but not balkanization , it mean more conflict in middle east , make way for their increased influence there . it also means one hurdle on the way of their dominance there removed
 

drmeson

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SalarHaqq

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we get some export version , then our technicians worked hard day and night to reach that , we get a 400km radar and turned it into 1000 and 3000 km real OTH radar of our design.

It'd be good to know the source for this information. But in any case I wonder how much longer it would have taken Iranian engineers to come up with their own enhanced and modified iteration if Russia hadn't agreed to supply this alleged export version to serve as a basis to work on. Given that no other country would have been willing nor capable to do so.

The very fact that Iran would purchase any version from them at all shows Iran saw some benefit in it. Otherwise Iranian decision makers are not exactly the type to squander even a rial on unnecessary imported weapons systems. And also let's not forget the Russian are meanwhile familiar enough with Iran's capabilities to be aware that the limited range radar they supplied Iran with will be massively upgraded.

as I say they did that to protect Latakia naval base, nothing else as they didn't do shit about Idlib or the areas that Kurds control. Syria effectively balkanized.

No, they pushed all the way to Palmyra and Deir ez-Zour. They don't care about their base in Latakia as much as about Syria in its entirety. Stepping into Kurdish-controlled areas would have meant direct military confrontation with the US and several other NATO regimes. The cost-benefit analysis of such an escalation was negative.

they effectively bomb anyplace in Syria and Russia only watch. never see a single time their air-defense get activated

It isn't relevant what the zionists do as long as it doesn't affect the status quo in Syria. Same as with their inconsequential sabotage attacks and assassinations in Iran.

but not balkanization , it mean more conflict in middle east , make way for their increased influence there . it also means one hurdle on the way of their dominance there removed

There will be no increased Russian influence if Iran is divided into several entities at the hands of the zionists and the Americans. The latter are not mad nor idiotic to forego placing their own lackeys into power in each one of the multiple successor states to Iran under such a scenario, and using the northern ones to destabilize Russia.
 
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drmeson

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as you said , 4 of them can do the work of 24 fateh like missile , look the difference in price tag

if we can fire them in that number and don't deplete our inventory dangerously by the way Su-24 and F-4 can each fire two noor or Qader
so they can be used against enemy asset outside Persian gulf and sea of Oman or inside enemy land just think you practically can made the range of cruise missile like ya-ali twice and each at least can carry 4 of it

But the enemy can shoot down a 5 out of some 20 fired Zolfagahar AShBM at a carrier the rest will still hit and it's a victory. But can we call it a victory if we lose 2-3 out of 4 x F-4E in the process? The men in them die, the planes are lost in the sea.

It's an old plane with a large RCS, we have accurate Ballistic missiles and Cruise missiles along with a 300+ strong fleet of UCAVS to do the attack job.
 

Hack-Hook

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The US did everything to keep Iran dependent, as it does with all its allies in the global south. Under the shah regime Iran was a typical vassal state deprived of sovereignty whose king's palace was riddled with bugging devices installed by the neo-colonial masters, as indicated by Court Minister Alam in his memoirs. This is the price to pay for fancy F-14's Iran could not operate without US involvement, and for some AH-1 and F-5 maintenance facilities.

Today by contrast Iran is one of the most independent nations in the entire world.
HESA is result of that , what's the result of Russia cooperation with Iran ?
I'm baffled why you worship Russia so much? isn't revolution slogan is "no to West, no to East , only Islamic Revolution "

you call me western apologist , because i say instead of outdated Russians equipment we must to invest the money in our country in semi conductor field , and Metallurgy field so we can produce our equipment , and here what you promote is no we must not do that , we must go and hand over it to Russia and buy some monkey version of their outdated equipment .
wonder if truly I'm western apologist or you are Russia apologist .

To those who have no admiration for the west nor any desire for a return to vassalage, other events will come to mind as well, such as the succesful joint military operation in Syria, the multiple weapons transfers from Russia, the standing ovations for seyyed Raisi at the Douma etc.
which weapon transfer and what successful operation ? all the weapon we got from Russia was out dated watered down version that our technician had to fix and any think we didn't fix bit us back (Like Tor Fiasco) and last time checked Syria is still three part and Russia don't care at all because Latakia is safe
By that logic the US should never have proceeded to stomping Iran from 1953 onwards. Mossadegh thought they would help Iran against the Britons based on Washington's previous record, but he was proven wrong.
what Mosaddeq must have learned , he didn't learn if he looked at history he had seen that at the time of WW2 when Russia and England attacked Iran when we announced neutrality , Iran government wrote a later to USA and asked for help and the answer they received was "to protect some freedom some sacrifice must be made"

its a lesson from history Mosaddeq failed to learn and it seems you also don't want to learn
you must rely on yourself , nobody will help you at the time of your need ,rely on yourself, stand on your foot.
some history lesson for you.
at the time of WW1 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
at the time of WW2 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
when USA and England made a coupe against our elected government who came to our help ?
after the revolution when Iraq with the backing of..... (I'm sure you are well aware of the complete list) attacked us who came to our help ?
in UN when they voted against us based on fake evidence (which are not presented to anyone till this day only one member said we get our hand on a laptop that belong to an Iran official that shows Iran is making nuke and we can't show it to you) did, Russia , China , France , England or USA or any other member said WTH, stop this circus?


that's lessons from history for you , what you learn from them is up to you

It'd be good to know the source for this information. But in any case I wonder how much longer it would have taken for Iranian engineers to come up with their enhanced and modified iterations if this alleged export version hadn't been supplied by Russia to serve as a basis to work on. Given that no other country would have been willing nor capable to do so. The very fact that Iran would purchase any version from them at all shows Iran saw some benefit in it. Otherwise Iranian decision makers are not exactly the type to squander even a rial on unnecessary imported weapons systems.
name the weapon , i say what we get ands later what we turned it into .
please be specific on the weapon , not a vague category of weapons

But the enemy can shoot down a 5 out of some 20 fired Zolfagahar AShBM at a carrier the rest will still hit and it's a victory. But can we call it a victory if we lose 2-3 out of 4 x F-4E in the process? The men in them die, the planes are lost in the sea.

It's an old plane with a large RCS, we have accurate Ballistic missiles and Cruise missiles along with a 300+ strong fleet of UCAVS to do the attack job.
the F-4 can fire their missile out of the protective envelope of the enemy air defense , and is zo-alfaqar anti-ship ? I doubt that .
Persian gulf and hormoz are and they have limited range , the noor and qader fired from fast aircraft from altitude will have range way beyond 180-300km when they are fired from ground
 
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Hack-Hook

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No, they pushed all the way to Palmyra and Deir ez-Zour. They don't care about their base in Latakia as much as about Syria in its entirety. Stepping into Kurdish-controlled areas would have meant direct military confrontation with the US and several other NATO regimes. The cost-benefit analysis of such an escalation was negative.
effectively forgetting about eastern part of the country and strategic border with Iraq
and now they are concerned about cost benefit. interestingly turkey didn't have such concerns and wonder why they also had such concerns about Idlib
It isn't relevant what the zionists do as long as it doesn't affect the status quo in Syria. Same as with their inconsequential sabotage attacks and assassinations in Iran.
it cost Syria degenerate their capabilities , made a laughing stock of its government , do i need to continue .
by the way why this status que nonsense don't have retaliate against Israel attack in it , right now Syria don't fight anybody ,why it tolerate those bombings ?
There will be no increased Russian influence if Iran is divided into several entities at the hands of the zionists and the Americans. The latter are not mad nor idiotic to forego placing their own lackeys into power in each one of the multiple successor states to Iran under such a scenario, and using the northern ones to destabilize Russia.
you are wrong on that
 

drmeson

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HESA is result of that , what's the result of Russia cooperation with Iran ?
I'm baffled why you worship Russia so much? isn't revolution slogan is "no to West, no to East , only Islamic Revolution "

you call me western apologist , because i say instead of outdated Russians equipment we must to invest the money in our country in semi conductor field , and Metallurgy field so we can produce our equipment , and here what you promote is no we must not do that , we must go and hand over it to Russia and buy some monkey version of their outdated equipment .
wonder if truly I'm western apologist or you are Russia apologist .


which weapon transfer and what successful operation ? all the weapon we got from Russia was out dated watered down version that our technician had to fix and any think we didn't fix bit us back (Like Tor Fiasco) and last time checked Syria is still three part and Russia don't care at all because Latakia is safe

what Mosaddeq must have learned , he didn't learn if he looked at history he had seen that at the time of WW2 when Russia and England attacked Iran when we announced neutrality , Iran government wrote a later to USA and asked for help and the answer they received was "to protect some freedom some sacrifice must be made"

its a lesson from history Mosaddeq failed to learn and it seems you also don't want to learn
you must rely on yourself , nobody will help you at the time of your need ,rely on yourself, stand on your foot.
some history lesson for you.
at the time of WW1 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
at the time of WW2 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
when USA and England made a coupe against our elected government who came to our help ?
after the revolution when Iraq with the backing of..... (I'm sure you are well aware of the complete list) attacked us who came to our help ?
in UN when they voted against us based on fake evidence (which are not presented to anyone till this day only one member said we get our hand on a laptop that belong to an Iran official that shows Iran is making nuke and we can't show it to you) did, Russia , China , France , England or USA or any other member said WTH, stop this circus?


that's lessons from history for you , what you learn from them is up to you


name the weapon , i say what we get ands later what we turned it into .
please be specific on the weapon , not a vague category of weapons


the F-4 can fire their missile out of the protective envelope of the enemy air defense , and is zo-alfaqar anti-ship ? I doubt that .
Persian gulf and hormoz are and they have limited range , the noor and qader fired from fast aircraft from altitude will have range way beyond 180-300km when they are fired from ground

Good luck sending a 2 x AShCM carrying F-4E to face Rafale, EF-2000, F-15. Like I said, even if they score the hit, it won't be a victory because 50% will be shot. Now same goes for missiles, it will still be a victory because no man-to-man encounter happened, and no life was lost.

Qader has a confirmed range of 300+ km (330) from truck launch.
 

SalarHaqq

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HESA is result of that , what's the result of Russia cooperation with Iran ?

The HESA we know is a result of the Islamic Republic's focus on self-sufficiency. There was none of that under the shah regime, and none of it would have been thinkable under the political conditions prevailing at the time.

Also see, here you are crediting the US regime for Islamic Iran's achievements.

I'm baffled why you worship Russia so much? isn't revolution slogan is "no to West, no to East , only Islamic Revolution "

No such thing on my part, I'm simply busy undercutting certain talking points against a strategic partner of Iran, talking points originating from quarters that long for a return to the pre-revolutionary status of subjugation to the west and the zionists.

"East" in the slogan "neither East nor West" was referencing the Soviet empire. It ceased to exist, and so will the US empire by God's grace.

Actually, Hezbollahis have always been the ones championing independence, including vis à vis Iran's strategic partners. Liberals however openly question the very concepts of independence and sovereignty, they gladly embrace vassalage, dissolution into the "universal community" and globalism.

you call me western apologist ,

The statement wasn't directed at you personally.

because i say instead of outdated Russians equipment we must to invest the money in our country in semi conductor field , and Metallurgy field so we can produce our equipment , and here what you promote is no we must not do that , we must go and hand over it to Russia and buy some monkey version of their outdated equipment .

Not at all. My problem isn't with this argument of yours. This should be apparent from the statements I quoted. The day you see me advocate the import of equipment from Russia rather than production of domestically developed material at home, you'll be most welcome to level this kind of accusation against me.

What I have an issue with are implicit or indirect suggestions that Iran was better off as a downtrodden vassal of north American and zionist oppressors in comparison to her present day status, namely that of a fiercely independent nation benefiting from accessory partnerships with fellow adversaries of the empire, irregardless of the latters' level of assistance.

Why not simply remind that Iran's focus should remain on autonomous weapons development, and leave it at that? Why insinuate that Russia compares unfavorably to the US as far as their relations with pre- or post-Revolution Iran are concerned? Why applaud western propaganda about Russian weapons systems being massively inferior to western ones?

From a patriotic or revolutionary perspective, there's something wrong about narratives that bash Russia and China instead of Iran's actual existential enemy ie the USA regime. Unlike China and Russia, Washington is working around the clock to bring about Iran's definitive demise, whereas Moscow and Beijing happen to be partners to Iran, be they of minor relevance, of questionable reliability and of deep imperfection. By the way, someone in Iran should point Beijing and Moscow to all the trash talk Saudi International is spewing against them in Farsi.

Also, I should add that the reason I welcome strategic cooperation between Iran and Russia is merely because we share a common rabid enemy. It's simply a matter of strategic interests, that's it. Liberal and other western-apologetic Iranians however are ideologically attracted by the west, they view the western political order (secular liberal "democracy") as the only legitimate one and are desperate to implement it in Iran. Same goes for western "lifestyles" they are admiring of. That's yet another key difference between us and them.

which weapon transfer and what successful operation ? all the weapon we got from Russia was out dated watered down version that our technician had to fix and any think we didn't fix bit us back (Like Tor Fiasco) and last time checked Syria is still three part and Russia don't care at all because Latakia is safe

Multiple weapons systems or know-how obtained from Russia are of excellent quality. The T-72S MBT is an example, another is the Krasnopol laser-guided artillery round or at least samples thereof based upon which Iran is producing its own variant (Washington sanctioned a Russian firm for this), yet other examples include the Kilo submarines, AK-103 assault rifles, RPG-29's, RPO-A's, MRO-A's, and so on and so forth. The Tor-M1 is also a top of the line AD system and examples received by Iran had not been sabotaged by Russia.

If all of these proved to be such terribly catastrophic experiences, why was Iran willing to go for a repeat after the first couple of instances?

Let's put this straight:

* Does Iran owe her current military prowess to Russia? No, domestic efforts have been the single most important factor in this regard.

* Is Russia an enemy? Has it never sold Iran anything of worth? Wrong, they are a strategic partner and weapons systems they supplied Iran with have played their part, as modest as it may be, in boosting Iran's military power.

Systematic and organized blackening of Russia, characteristic of the western-apologetic reformist and moderate factions in Iran as well as of the US-backed opposition in exile is therefore decidedly disproportional and uncalled for. The agenda underlying these efforts should be plain obvious as well, I frankly don't know how there can be doubts about this.

what Mosaddeq must have learned , he didn't learn if he looked at history he had seen that at the time of WW2 when Russia and England attacked Iran when we announced neutrality , Iran government wrote a later to USA and asked for help and the answer they received was "to protect some freedom some sacrifice must be made"

its a lesson from history Mosaddeq failed to learn and it seems you also don't want to learn
you must rely on yourself , nobody will help you at the time of your need ,rely on yourself, stand on your foot.
some history lesson for you.

I didn't claim Mossadegh was right to speculate that the US might help. But that Mossadegh shouldn't have extrapolated on whatever constructive behaviour he thought the US had shown in the past, nor should he have consider such past behaviour by Washington as a rule of thumb applicable to every period of history.

at the time of WW1 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
at the time of WW2 Iran was neutral but get attacked ,who came to our help ?
when USA and England made a coupe against our elected government who came to our help ?
after the revolution when Iraq with the backing of..... (I'm sure you are well aware of the complete list) attacked us who came to our help ?
in UN when they voted against us based on fake evidence (which are not presented to anyone till this day only one member said we get our hand on a laptop that belong to an Iran official that shows Iran is making nuke and we can't show it to you) did, Russia , China , France , England or USA or any other member said WTH, stop this circus?

that's lessons from history for you , what you learn from them is up to you

As said, I am not trying to argue against self-reliance nor to suggest Iran should expect or count on decisive outside help during a major crisis situation. My point was rather that previous Russian regimes having been hostile towards Iran does not imply the same is holding true today.
 
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SalarHaqq

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effectively forgetting about eastern part of the country and strategic border with Iraq
and now they are concerned about cost benefit.

Look up the battle of Palmyra, where Russian forces helped in crushing "I"SIS.

You may as well suggest Iran and the Syrian government itself aren't interested in reclaiming the eastern part of Syria, but that would be just as incorrect. Obviously the reason for not directly crossing into those areas is the local presence of military contingents from NATO regimes, so it wouldn't be cost effective at the moment.

interestingly turkey didn't have such concerns and wonder why they also had such concerns about Idlib

Turkey benefited from the fact that Damascus and allies had the liberation of Syria's most strategic regions on their plate.

it cost Syria degenerate their capabilities , made a laughing stock of its government , do i need to continue .
by the way why this status que nonsense don't have retaliate against Israel attack in it , right now Syria don't fight anybody ,why it tolerate those bombings ?

I addressed this already: the Syrian government is safe and sound, zionist air strikes are completely futile. Iran too has been derided by her enemies (and some Iranians influenced by enemy propaganda) as weak and passive towards zionist-orchestrated sabotage, yet we know very well how and why these narratives are missing the point.

you are wrong on that

Don't think so.
 
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Hack-Hook

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Good luck sending a 2 x AShCM carrying F-4E to face Rafale, EF-2000, F-15. Like I said, even if they score the hit, it won't be a victory because 50% will be shot. Now same goes for missiles, it will still be a victory because no man-to-man encounter happened, and no life was lost.

Qader has a confirmed range of 300+ km (330) from truck launch.
well , you are not supposed to first them over the target unprotected , we are saying cruise missiles , you can protect them with something and they are supposed to release their payload 300-400km away
that 300km from truk easily can be translated to 400-500km if released at highspeed and altitude and that's something F-4 and Su-24 can do

The HESA we know is a result of the Islamic Republic's focus on self-sufficiency. There was none of that under the shah regime, and none of it would have been thinkable under the political conditions prevailing at the time.

Also see, here you are crediting the US regime for Islamic Iran's achievements.
the equipment was there before revolution .
have you asked yourself why they tinker with American equipment but don't do anything with Russians or European ones?
 

SalarHaqq

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the equipment was there before revolution .

The equipment to produce what HESA is producing nowadays was not there prior to the Islamic Revolution. The US never sold Iran a production line for F-5's. Moreover none of the key electronic components of the Kowsar have anything to do with those of the original F-5. And none of them are based on US-made models.

have you asked yourself why they tinker with American equipment but don't do anything with Russians or European ones?

Iran did modify and upgrade Russian weaponry as well. You stated as much with regards to the long range radar. We could add examples such as the S-200 (several upgrades over the years), the SA-6 and other such systems.
 

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