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Sineva

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congratulation not upgraded for 23m upgraded god now how much and you effectively ended kowsar program and didn't get even a ToT on a single bolt used there.
remind me of what happened to Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow and nearly happened to JAS-39 Grippen (escaped by just 5 vote) now for that disastrous decision this happened to canada



and what Canada royal airforce got of the fiasco, the inferior shit


now look at sweden and what they got of the project

now they went on with their project instead of what traitorous Canadian politician did and after 35 year of work they got this


iu

the deadliest and most advanced light fighter available there and above all one of the cheapest out there to operate by just 5800$ /hours of flight its twice for j-10c and f-16 and thrice for F-18 for rafale and Eurofighter its 4 time and for f-35 its 6time that amount.

you can decide here going Canada route , getting old Russians airplanes that never ever were successful in real war and effectively destroy all achieved in Kowsar project or go Sweden route ,invest that money on Kowsar project
Theres one thing that you seem to be overlooking,and that is the swedes total reliance on imported western jet engine technology,indeed the swedes rather unwisely scrapped their own indigenous jet engine development program back in the 50s,preferring instead the expedient shortcut of licensed western engine tech.
Ultimately BOTH the canadians AND the swedes made stupid mistakes that cost them.
Now since sweden has officially come out of the neutral closet and expressed ts wish to become a nato vassal nation one could argue that it doesnt really matter,but in that case why even bother with an indigenous fighter program in the first place.
The truth is that neither of these nations indigenous fighter programs serve as good examples for iran.
 

Hack-Hook

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Theres one thing that you seem to be overlooking,and that is the swedes total reliance on imported western jet engine technology,indeed the swedes rather unwisely scrapped their own indigenous jet engine development program back in the 50s,preferring instead the expedient shortcut of licensed western engine tech.
wrong , the technology was western in C/D but it was made by Volvo, and in F/E they use general electric , till volvo can build something of the same caliber so they don't loose supercruise capability
Now since sweden has officially come out of the neutral closet and expressed ts wish to become a nato vassal nation one could argue that it doesnt really matter,but in that case why even bother with an indigenous fighter program in the first place.
why not , first the fighter would be designed according to your need , second you can do whatever you like with it third make jobs in your country and forth nobody can tell you what to do with it and what not to

The truth is that neither of these nations indigenous fighter programs serve as good examples for iran.
yes they serve lesson , history teach us lesson
Canadian Airforce:
98 CF-18A and 40 F/A-18B
12 F/A-18A and 6 F/A-18B
(B models are trainer)

you see only F-18A/B
swedish airforce
JAS 39 Gripen 71 C variant /60 E variant (the E models are being delivered) / 23 D variant (as trainer)
46 SAAB-105 as trainer
2x SAAB-340 as AEW&C

are you ready to bet which one is more potent one is the most potent light fighter ,another is outdated version of a 4th generation fighter.

what here is suggested for our air force is the Canadian route
 
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drmeson

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congratulation not upgraded for 23m upgraded god now how much and you effectively ended kowsar program and didn't get even a ToT on a single bolt used there.
remind me of what happened to Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow and nearly happened to JAS-39 Grippen (escaped by just 5 vote) now for that disastrous decision this happened to canada



and what Canada royal airforce got of the fiasco, the inferior shit


now look at sweden and what they got of the project

now they went on with their project instead of what traitorous Canadian politician did and after 35 year of work they got this


iu

the deadliest and most advanced light fighter available there and above all one of the cheapest out there to operate by just 5800$ /hours of flight its twice for j-10c and f-16 and thrice for F-18 for rafale and Eurofighter its 4 time and for f-35 its 6time that amount.

you can decide here going Canada route , getting old Russians airplanes that never ever were successful in real war and effectively destroy all achieved in Kowsar project or go Sweden route ,invest that money on Kowsar project

Kowsar program has nothing to do with MIG/SU procurement. We dont have to create any conjecture ourselves, we can rather see what IRIAF was doing itself in 90s to know better.

So Azarakhsh program started in the early to mid-90s. Plan was to synthesize from scratch, an Iranian F-5E/F derivative with fully modernized avionics (by that time, they tried using J-7G's Sy-80 radars) and also enhanced APQ-153 search range to 64 km by the antenna design change. BUT didn't IRIAF at the same time order 48 x MIG-29 + ~ 30 x MIG-31 that Yeltsin did not deliver because of American pressure ? Not only that they also tried to purchase Moldovan Fulcurum fleet. It tells us that IRIAF has two things in mind. They have a light national fighter program which got throuh a series of tech demos and now has reached some fair level production. Azarakhsh => Saegheh I => Saegheh II => Kowsar-I => Kowsar-II??, but they still want fast, higher climb rate, rapid turning, high G's pulling interceptors too which is why MIG-29 purchase was on the cards even when HESA-CATIC(China) were partnering on F-5E/F based 4th generation aircraft. Still, IRIAF ordered 72 x MIG-29 in total, out of which 24 came (Russians maintain they delivered ~40) + 4 iraqi ones. They later tried to purchase the Moldovan 28 x jets, all the while the national light combat fighter jet program continued. So if MIG fleet grows today with modern avionics, it doesnt mean Kowsar program will cease to exist. They are different things although kowsar program has more potential

(a) Built from scratch Kowsari-I with everything new costs 9-10 million
(b) Its radar, avionics is far far better than IRIAF MIg fleet
(c) its a domestic product that can be opened up and upgraded tomorrow if we seek to
(d) can be evolved to next gen

MIG cant achieve above. Which is why I consider this to be a master stroke by IEI and HESA because IRIAF now practically can not die. Even if we have to retire entire F-14, MIG and rest of the circus fleet in next 7 years, We can still have some build a robust IRIAF around 200 x Kowsar-II + 300 UCAV's including wingmen. This program will continue regardless of whether they purchase SU-35S or MIG-29/35 or do not purchase anything at all.
 

Hack-Hook

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So Azarakhsh program started in the early to mid-90s. Plan was to synthesize from scratch, an Iranian F-5E/F derivative with fully modernized avionics (by that time, they tried using J-7G's Sy-80 radars) and also enhanced APQ-153 search range to 64 km by the antenna design change. BUT didn't IRIAF at the same time order 48 x MIG-29 + ~ 30 x MIG-31 that Yeltsin did not deliver because of American pressure ? Not only that they also tried to purchase Moldovan Fulcurum fleet. It tells us that IRIAF has two things in mind. They have a light national fighter program which got throuh a series of tech demos and now has reached some fair level production. Azarakhsh => Saegheh I => Saegheh II => Kowsar-I => Kowsar-II??, but they still want fast, higher climb rate, rapid turning, high G's pulling interceptors too which is why MIG-29 purchase was on the cards even when HESA-CATIC(China) were partnering on F-5E/F based 4th generation aircraft. Still, IRIAF ordered 72 x MIG-29 in total, out of which 24 came (Russians maintain they delivered ~40) + 4 iraqi ones. They later tried to purchase the Moldovan 28 x jets, all the while the national light combat fighter jet program continued. So if MIG fleet grows today with modern avionics, it doesnt mean Kowsar program will cease to exist. They are different things although kowsar program has more potential
there is small problem of we had more money at our disposal at the time.and the small problem of 30 year between then and now
mig-29 9.13 was a good airplane at the time . but now ? rather go and by a license for jf-17 from china
right now we are cash strapped , its development an airplane or buying those old mig-29.
MIG cant achieve above. Which is why I consider this to be a master stroke by IEI and HESA because IRIAF now practically can not die. Even if we have to retire entire F-14, MIG and rest of the circus fleet in next 7 years, We can still have some build a robust IRIAF around 200 x Kowsar-II + 300 UCAV's including wingmen. This program will continue regardless of whether they purchase SU-35S or MIG-29/35 or do not purchase anything at all.
considering how much money we can spend there , its either buy foreign airplane and kill domestic airplane program or go on with our own airplane and inject the money they want to spend on foreign aircraft to that program
 

drmeson

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If anyone can find

there was a pic of from an exhibition/airshow in which HESA presented a model of a single turbofan integrated into a Kowsar. Can anyone post it here?
 

drmeson

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there is small problem of we had more money at our disposal at the time.and the small problem of 30 year between then and now
mig-29 9.13 was a good airplane at the time . but now ? rather go and by a license for jf-17 from china
right now we are cash strapped , its development an airplane or buying those old mig-29.

considering how much money we can spend there , its either buy foreign airplane and kill domestic airplane program or go on with our own airplane and inject the money they want to spend on foreign aircraft to that program

Correction, IRIAF is cash strapped, not the Iranian defense industry in general. Our entire defense budget of 25 Bln USD (SIPRI figures) goes to domestic production and maintenance. We also are fighting active wars let's not forget. We have to keep on expanding the missile forces, nuclear program, space program, naval production, UCAVs, armor, Air defense, E-warfare etc etc and IRIAF is at the bottom of that priority list because of the military doctrine.

What you are forgetting is that MIG-29 9.12/9.13 or MIG-29M/M2, MIG-35 are excellent fighters in terms of their physical performance, they cant be dealt with in dogfights easily even by 5th generation aircraft. Only a fool would think that within WVR, an F-35 can just go on and score a kill on HMD wearing MIG-92SMT or Mig-35 easily. You have a fighter that can hit the linear dash at supersonic speeds, climb vertically at transonic speeds (65000ft/min), pull 9+ G's in small turns to get into attack positions while carrying HMD slaved HOBS like R-73/74 and IRST. MIG-29/35 are monsters in dogfights ..... BUT

..... Ours are 9.12 with no e-warfare suites or HMD or anything. They would be massacred in the sky by a fully armed Kowsar-I let alone any future generation Kowsar-II. Just with its low RCS and Grifo-346/Bayyenat-II the Kowsar with 1m2 RCS will hardly be seen by MIG while MIG's own RPKL-29 will be facing a heavy jamming attack by SAIRAN E-Warfare suite in Kowsar. Kowsar with its datalink can also direct Kaman-22/Karrar carrying DASH ECM pods towards MIG to Jam the relic RPKL-29 Sapfir 29 N019. This is what the reality of this old fleet is. So what do we do with this fleet of 23 x MIGs that badly need MLU and upgrades? There are options:

(a) We retire them in the next 5 years when their beat-up airframes and turbofans would just be giving up already but that means all of the following will go to waste:

- Large infrastructure made for MIG fleet at Mehrabad and Shahinshahr
- 150 R-27ER/R1BVR missiles
- 300 R-73E
- 400 R-60MK WVR missiles
- 106 RD-33 turbofans (56 with aircraft + 50 later received in 2008)

(b) HESA-led MLU program starts up for the airframes of MIGs, and RD-33 turbofans while IEI can provide the Kowsar level avionics package of Datalinks, ECM+Jammer+RWR+IFF, HMD slaved HOBS. Keep the RPKL-29 to guide R-73E, R-27ER/R1.

(c) Russian front companies provide the MLU, full avionics upgrade to MIG-29M/SMT standards, and supply additional airframes (as many as they can from Russian storage, ~50?) at least. This option is actually easier than procurement of SU-35S, J-31whatever.




considering how much money we can spend there , its either buy foreign airplane and kill domestic airplane program or go on with our own airplane and inject the money they want to spend on foreign aircraft to that program

The best way to go will be to focus 50% budget on Kowsar-I production (10-12 airframes per year), if the target is 70 aircraft and we already have seen 18-24 airframes at HESA floors, this means 35-40 % of the entire production target is already being worked upon. Kowsar-I will be concluded in 2026 by this speed. The rest of the 25% budget can go to extensive R&D for Kowsar-II (low all aspect RCS, AESA, HOTAS, Jahesh/OWJ Turbofans etc), the rest of 25 % should for F-14 AM conversions, Maghsoud LR-BVR, and MIG-29 MLU. The rest of the 160 Fuckers (F-7N, MIRAGEF1EQ, F-5E/F) can be grounded or donated to allied countries like Syria, Iraq etc. F-5E/F can be dismantled to create a repository of useable parts for Kowsar-I's.

I am not in favor of foreign procurement. We have Kowsar-I being produced, Kowsar-II is the way to go. Unless the procurement fits like a glove in the current infrastructure which is only possible if its more MIG-29/35 other than that no.
 
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considering how much money we can spend there , its either buy foreign airplane and kill domestic airplane program or go on with our own airplane and inject the money they want to spend on foreign aircraft to that program
I would suggest sometime much more interesting. Purchase a number of retired MiG-25s from ex-operators and reverse engineer them all part by part to work up a design that can work as a stopgap heavy interceptor alongside the F-14s for a decade or so.

MiG-25 has an airframe that is very robust and airworthy and the engines have a good dry thrust/afterburner propulsion. Any design developed from a thorough study of it and equipped with a 4+ generation avionics, ECM and datalink suite will be quite a vicious aircraft. Whatever is learned from the turbojet it uses can later be applied into the Iranian domestic turbofan program and then the new engine can be fit in to not only gain more out of the frame but it can power a new fighter altogether which might become the Iranian equivalent to the F-15E.
 

Hack-Hook

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I would suggest sometime much more interesting. Purchase a number of retired MiG-25s from ex-operators and reverse engineer them all part by part to work up a design that can work as a stopgap heavy interceptor alongside the F-14s for a decade or so.

MiG-25 has an airframe that is very robust and airworthy and the engines have a good dry thrust/afterburner propulsion. Any design developed from a thorough study of it and equipped with a 4+ generation avionics, ECM and datalink suite will be quite a vicious aircraft. Whatever is learned from the turbojet it uses can later be applied into the Iranian domestic turbofan program and then the new engine can be fit in to not only gain more out of the frame but it can power a new fighter altogether which might become the Iranian equivalent to the F-15E.
Nobody ever was impressed or feared of mig-25 even our f-5 was able to score against them. I bet you can't find any war that the airplane shined in it
 

drmeson

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It kind of performed well in our war against *raq (though I'm quite angry about our pilots and aircraft lost to them).



This cowboy Yadollah Javadpour sitting in a F-5E shot a MIG-25RB of IrAFusing gunshots and sidewinder

Yadollah_Javadpour.jpg



In today's combat MIG-25 with its large RCS, and low Gs is a flying target and nothing else. Much below than F-4E/D let alone anything else. Its most modern form is MIG-31BM (yes MIG-31 is nothing but an improved MIG-25) which has some say in the combat if armed with R-33/37 LR-BVR and Zaslon radar. But only if there are other more maneuverable fighters around to guard it.
 
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This cowboy Yadollah Javadpour sitting in a F-5E shot a MIG-25RB of IrAFusing gunshots and sidewinder

Yadollah_Javadpour.jpg



In today's combat MIG-25 with its large RCS, and low Gs is a flying target and nothing else. Much below than F-4E/D let alone anything else. Its most modern form is MIG-31BM (yes MIG-31 is nothing but an improved MIG-25) which has some say in the combat if armed with R-33/37 LR-BVR and Zaslon radar. But only if there are other more maneuverable fighters around to guard it.
I heard the frame can pull up to 11Gs, sir. And of course, I didn't say we reverse engineer the MiG-25 from scratch - rather we study it's strengths, find out it's flaws and use the airframe as a basis to improvise on the design to create an aircraft which has the speed but also the maneuverability of the Flanker family along with the best in avionics, EW and radar technology...basically our answer to the F-15E.
 

drmeson

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I heard the frame can pull up to 11Gs, sir. And of course, I didn't say we reverse engineer the MiG-25 from scratch - rather we study it's strengths, find out it's flaws and use the airframe as a basis to improvise on the design to create an aircraft which has the speed but also the maneuverability of the Flanker family along with the best in avionics, EW and radar technology...basically our answer to the F-15E.

Maximum acceleration (g-load) rating was just 2.2 g with full fuel tanks, with an absolute limit of 4.5 g. One MiG-25 withstood an inadvertent 11.5 g pull during low-altitude dogfight training, but the resulting deformation damaged the airframe beyond repair. [http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl]

This plane has an exceptional bad record in combat against 4th generation fighters. It lost 10:0 against F-14A of IRIAF [Western unbiased research analysis]. The only western research confirmed kills came from the ace Mohammad Rayyan against F-4E/RF-4 on recce mission which could not defend itself. Rayyan himself was later blasted in the sky by our tomcat serial killer Jalil Zandi.

1656415510085.png


What you are saying is practically IRIAF getting MIG-31BM level fighters, which IRIAF itself wanted in 1990s. They placed an order of an initial 24-30 x MIG-31s which did not get through. Because of this contract's failure, further F-14A airframes were revived to increase Tomcat squadrons. In today's age of multi-role air superiority, you need maneuverable low RCS fighters with extremely good electronic warfare, navigation, and combat suite. MIG 25/31 cant fullfill this role. There is a reason you are not hearing Ru-AF deploying MIG-31 at front in Ukraine. You are seeing only SU-30SM, SU-35S, SU-34.
 
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Maximum acceleration (g-load) rating was just 2.2 g with full fuel tanks, with an absolute limit of 4.5 g. One MiG-25 withstood an inadvertent 11.5 g pull during low-altitude dogfight training, but the resulting deformation damaged the airframe beyond repair. [http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl]

This plane has an exceptional bad record in combat against 4th generation fighters. It lost 10:0 against F-14A of IRIAF [Western unbiased research analysis]. The only western research confirmed kills came from the ace Mohammad Rayyan against F-4E/RF-4 on recce mission which could not defend itself. Rayyan himself was later blasted in the sky by our tomcat serial killer Jalil Zandi.

View attachment 857500

What you are saying is practically IRIAF getting MIG-31BM level fighters, which IRIAF itself wanted in 1990s. They placed an order of an initial 24-30 x MIG-31s which did not get through. Because of this contract's failure, further F-14A airframes were revived to increase Tomcat squadrons. In today's age of multi-role air superiority, you need maneuverable low RCS fighters with extremely good electronic warfare, navigation, and combat suite. MIG 25/31 cant fullfill this role. There is a reason you are not hearing Ru-AF deploying MIG-31 at front in Ukraine. You are seeing only SU-30SM, SU-35S, SU-34.
I stand corrected, then. What should be our recourse, then? Perhaps purchase Su-27s and do the same as I outlined for the MiG-25s?
 

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gambit

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I stand corrected, then. What should be our recourse, then? Perhaps purchase Su-27s and do the same as I outlined for the MiG-25s?
Do not forget that Viktor Belenko defected to the West and landed a MIG-25 on JPN. We took the jet apart before returning it to the Soviet Union. The MIG-25 was crap. That is not to say that we found nothing good about the jet. But what we admired most was the manufacturing process Soviet engineers created because they lacked the sophisticated tooling the US have. That was the best we gave to the MIG-25, not because we were adversaries during the Cold War, but our harsh assessment came from technical analyses.

When I was active duty, our squadron had a chance to an informal briefing about the MIG-25 after it was disassembled in JPN. Most about the MIG-25 is still secret, not because of the jet, but because of the intelligence methods used to gain knowledge of the jet, before and after Belenko's defection. I still remember that day. The room was packed, officers and enlisted, and this was before the internet. The brief began with Belenko's defection and US thanks to him. Then one slide after another, we saw highly technical details of the jet. It was amazing at how much photographic info we made in the short time the jet was in our possession. The jet's airframe was THEORETICALLY capable of nearly 7g in clean config, which was comparable to a clean F-15. But because of the lack of sophisticated manufacturing tooling, the design had to be extraordinarily assembled with greater reinforcement and they were crude which made the airframe increasingly heavier as the design progresses into its final form we see today. You have to understand that design engineers do one thing, but the manufacturing engineers have to put everything together into a functional device. The MIG-25 was shockingly crude even by 1970s standards. Then cobbled with those two near rocket engines for propulsion, airframe reinforcement killed any tactical maneuverability the original design had. The avionics are a different discussion.

The MIG-25 is a terrible choice for any air force to use as template.
 

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