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Flotilla

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Hi guys;

Making a bit of OSINT in Google maps, and watching closely the Isfahan AB I found something interesting;

1.- See at least 4 F14s are out of the armored shelters. May be indicative about a certain (good in my oppinion) level of readiness.


2.- What are those small VLJ aircraft?. Those seems to be discarded or storaged. HESA Dorna?.

 

drmeson

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They are retaining it due to cost and it’s Brazil. Who are they going to be fighting exactly that they need expensive top of the line fighters? Not every country can splurge on F-35’s.

No, they are retaining it because it's simple to operate, and maintain platform that can be upgraded easily. Cost is one factor but not the only one. Even if we just consider cost as the sole factor it's a huge one for IRIAF itself.

You have some mental obsession with F-35 ... no country in Iranian surroundings operates F-35 and Israeli Adir cant reach Iran so your whole fixation on F-35 is impractical here.

Yes, I am cancelling it because people like you keep trying to make a 1960’s aircraft be something it’s not. Not because it doesn’t have value within Iran’s airforce....it does.

BS post. Except for its aerodynamic shape, nothing in Kowsar resembles F-5E/F. Its radar+ avionics package, engines, combat suite hell even the wheels are just different, and whatever resembles F-5 has been built new. People like you do not understand the fact that upgradation means everything in the field of aviation. F-16 also flew in 1976, it's a 46 years old aerodynamic design. By your logic, we should start calling F-16 Blk 60 an old plane because F-16 is 46 years? even the staunchest enemies of the Iranian government like BT accept the fact that Kowsar is a 100 % different plane with a 4.0 Generation suite. Iran needs it more than it needs its F-7N, Mirages, and current F-5 fleet. I would trust the decision-makers more than I trust anyone on the internet.

If it were that easy every country in the world would just fight their adversaries with their Yak-130’s and Advanced trainers. Life doesn’t work that way.

Your logic is wrong. Every country actually does operate light combat fighters in high numbers to complement their main machines. Taiwan has FCK-1 which is morphing into AIDC T-5, Iraq is getting FC-1 and T-50 not just F-16 Block 52, Thai are getting F-5T, India is replacing its 60 years old MIGs, not with SU-30 but with a 4.0 generation LCA, Pakistan has its FC-1 Blk II/II despite having a large fleet of F-16 an option to purchase more J-10C ... the list goes on. IRIAF will purchase probably Sukhois or J-10C too but they will replace F-4E/D, Su-24MK not Kowsars or whatever they will name the next generation of it.

F-5 is an F-5 aerodynamically and kinetically. An F-35 has radar of 250+ KM and even Nebo isn’t detecting it till maybe 75KM more likely 50KM in a stealth loadout.

F-5aerodynamics are not bad even against legendary 4+ generation fighers.

F-5E dogfighting trials at Nellis AFB in 1977, called ACEVAL/AIMVAL, "For the first three weeks of the test, the F-14s and F-15s were hopelessly outclassed and demoralized against F-5E carrying Aim-9L".

Again nobody Iran might face in air combat is operating F-35 except US.

The only way F-5 survives is hanging in a air defense zone and flying low to avoid radars. It may get lucky. If it flies in a formation of Mig and F-14, then it will be used as bait to draw out the enemy in the area.

wrong logic. Kowsar is not F-5E/F it has far better radar and avionics. Just on itself, a fully operationalized one will see any incoming threat from 90-95 KM and might shoot BVR missiles at the incoming attacker while from how far away any other 4-4+ generation fighter like F-16 or Mirage-2000 sees Kowsar depends upon their radars. Detecting RCS of 1-2 m^2 is not easy.

In real battle scenarios like IRIAF operations during the 2020 war in North west. Kowsars will fly with Fakour armed F-14AM and MIGs (with their R-27E) using some datalink operated from Khatam Al Anbiya network, taking inputs from Sepeher, Qader, Nazir, Asr like G-WACS and SIGNIT behind them. Your idea of one fighter vs one fighter is not realistic at all.

It’s happening in Ukraine right now. So again, you are incorrect.

Incomparable. Put Iran in place of Ukraine, IRGC would destroy the bases from where Russian fighters are coming in so the same fighters would have to use drop tanks to reach Ukrainian/Iranian skies with larger drag, enhanced RCS for LORADS + SHORADS to pick who would fire on them to disrupt the invader flight. It's a totally different scenario from Ukraine. Airforces operate in tandem with ground forces plans not alone. IRIAF being the weakest of Artesh forces will gets its job turn easy by IRGC aerospace command.

Hi guys;

Making a bit of OSINT in Google maps, and watching closely the Isfahan AB I found something interesting;

1.- See at least 4 F14s are out of the armored shelters. May be indicative about a certain (good in my oppinion) level of readiness.


2.- What are those small VLJ aircraft?. Those seems to be discarded or storaged. HESA Dorna?.


QRA at TAB-8.

Is that usual guys ?
 

yugocrosrb95

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Issue with Kowsar is that it is too compatible with F-5 Tiger II because of need to maintain original F-5 Tiger II and Kowsar is anemic when it does not have long range beyond visual range air to air missiles along turbojet engine being clone of J85-GE-21.
 

drmeson

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no its not that simple , that configuration have far less combat range , that one is even more than ferry range with that configuration


these are for F-5
Rangewith maximum fuel -- 1387 miles.
Combat radius with maximum payload -- 195 miles
Combat radius with maximum fuel and two 530-pound bombs 558 miles.

good reading on the matter if you interested but a little lengthy


it says on FAS and Glocal security that with 2 x Sidewinders and on internal fuel only (2563 ltr) F-5E can fly up to 1056 km. That means it's doing 1056/2563 = 0.41 KM/ltr with 2 x sidewinders. Now if we add an additional central fuselage tank of 1040 ltr total fuel jet will be carrying is 3603 ltr. It means 0.41 KM x 3603 ltr = 1485 km range, mind you a 1040 ltr tank of JP-1 fuel itself weighs around 830 kgs.

Let's a Kowsar is flying with 2x Fatter + 2x PL-12 (additional 360 KG). My guess is that the range would cut down to somewhere between 1200-1300 Km which is not bad at all. It can easily supplement Gashtzan groups of F-14AM and MIGs with its modern avionics.
 

Hack-Hook

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it says on FAS and Glocal security that with 2 x Sidewinders and on internal fuel only (2563 ltr) F-5E can fly up to 1056 km. That means it's doing 1056/2563 = 0.41 KM/ltr with 2 x sidewinders. Now if we add an additional central fuselage tank of 1040 ltr total fuel jet will be carrying is 3603 ltr. It means 0.41 KM x 3603 ltr = 1485 km range, mind you a 1040 ltr tank of JP-1 fuel itself weighs around 830 kgs.

Let's a Kowsar is flying with 2x Fatter + 2x PL-12 (additional 360 KG). My guess is that the range would cut down to somewhere between 1200-1300 Km which is not bad at all. It can easily supplement Gashtzan groups of F-14AM and MIGs with its modern avionics.
that 500km flight radius or combat range . but you most reduce from that more in case you need to have several minute fighting and maneuvering also . you need consider the need to use after burner. also you want to have at least 10*15 min of reserve when you come back to the base.
all your calculation are only aplicable if you knew there won't be any fight and you want transport plan from point x to point y

also those drop tanks significantly increase drag on airplane so you must also consider those ..
the link I provided is F-5 operation manual and explained it
 

drmeson

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Issue with Kowsar is that it is too compatible with F-5 Tiger II because of need to maintain original F-5 Tiger II and Kowsar is anemic when it does not have long range beyond visual range air to air missiles along turbojet engine being clone of J85-GE-21.

Aerodynamically it may look like an F-5E but with figures that were shown on official slides at the time of its unveiling, its performance somewhat deviates from F-5E. It's slightly shorter in length and has much less take-off weight by almost a ton (added radar and avionics weight).

Knowing that they played with the aerodynamics of Saeqeh with twin tails, enhanced nose length, and squared air intakes. My guess is that in the next generation in Azarakhsh, Saegheh and Kowsar .... if they retain the basic frame of a Tiger, they might go for some CFT-like solution to carry around ~3600 ltr of fuel instead of the current capacity of 2563 ltr. It will be less drag compared to an external fuel tank as well and may push the craft to provide longer-range CAPs with bigger fighters.
Kowsar-page-0003.jpg


that 500km flight radius or combat range . but you most reduce from that more in case you need to have several minute fighting and maneuvering also . you need consider the need to use after burner. also you want to have at least 10*15 min of reserve when you come back to the base.
all your calculation are only aplicable if you knew there won't be any fight and you want transport plan from point x to point y

also those drop tanks significantly increase drag on airplane so you must also consider those ..
the link I provided is F-5 operation manual and explained it

That scenario of fighting, afterburner etc applies to any fighter which will reduce its range. My given figures from FAS/Global security are based on their CAP missions.

Btw have you seen the MIG-29 range with 2 x R-73E and 2 x R-27E/R-77E ? it is not very different.
 

Hack-Hook

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Aerodynamically it may look like an F-5E but with figures that were shown on official slides at the time of its unveiling, its performance somewhat deviates from F-5E. It's slightly shorter in length and has much less take-off weight by almost a ton (added radar and avionics weight).

Knowing that they played with the aerodynamics of Saeqeh with twin tails, enhanced nose length, and squared air intakes. My guess is that in the next generation in Azarakhsh, Saegheh and Kowsar .... if they retain the basic frame of a Tiger, they might go for some CFT-like solution to carry around ~3600 ltr of fuel instead of the current capacity of 2563 ltr. It will be less drag compared to an external fuel tank as well and may push the craft to provide longer-range CAPs with bigger fighters.
Kowsar-page-0003.jpg




That scenario of fighting, afterburner etc applies to any fighter which will reduce its range. My given figures from FAS/Global security are based on their CAP missions.

Btw have you seen the MIG-29 range with 2 x R-73E and 2 x R-27E/R-77E ? it is not very different.
mig 29 does not have that much more range when it come to ferry range but when it come to combat range because of the more efficient design has around 700km combat radious on internal fuel (i don't knew what payload it calculated on as different payload can change that in extreme cases even halve it)
interesting article on mig-29 by someone a little biassed , but he has some points
 
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drmeson

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mig 29 does not have that much more range when it come to ferry range but when it come to combat range because of the more efficient design has around 700km combat radious on internal fuel (i don't knew what payload it calculated on as different payload can change that in extreme cases even halve it)

I think 700 combat radius is based upon 2 x R-73 + 4 x R-27E/R77E which is almost equal to 600-650 KM of a Kowsar configured with 2 x Fatter + 2 x PL-12 + 1 Drop tank while both of them the MIG-29 9.12A with its relic RPLK-29 (earliest N019) and Kowsar's IEI Bayyenat-II (Grifo-346/KLJ6F) have almost similar radar ranges but here is the difference, Mig's radar weighs a booming 385 Kg while that of Kowsar weighs 85 kgs barely being of modern western Grifo or its Chinese NRIET copy and is much more sophisticated too. This family is currently powering M-346, Kowsar, F-7BG (the toughest J-7 variant ever) while its variant with more T/R module variant is onboard of FC-1 Blk 2.

My point is if we just consider BVR armed CAP ... Kowsar and IRIAF's Mig 9.12A are not that different from each other. It will be a different story though if Iran manages to get MIG upgraded to MIG-29 M2/SMT standard with CFT installed while Kowsar gets a smaller no drag CFTs over its air intakes too (350 ltrs of JP-1A) on each side giving its combat radius a boost by 300 KM.
 
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925boy

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To be fair, a mountain facility like this should be pretty well spotted by US sats.
i wouldnt count on this that much. why do i say this? well US sats havent been that great at spotting new and secret Iranian nuclear sites historically...and nuclear sites and military sites still need similar construction needs, so how come US has only realized some Iranian nuclear sites years after they've been up and running?? Iran is so large and sats is not the issue- human has to review and study all those sat images, and Iran is a huge country...Also, juist knowing the site location isnt good enough- you will still need detailed intel on the overall structure to even be able to create a semi-feasible plan of shutting the site down - Fordow for example, realistically, even US cant effectively close it down with force- but their satellites "know" where it is. Just saying that sat alone cant save any country.
 

TheImmortal

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You have some mental obsession with F-35 ... no country in Iranian surroundings operates F-35 and Israeli Adir cant reach Iran so your whole fixation on F-35 is impractical here.

F-35 can reach Iran with mid air refueling. Or do you need to check global security to use basic intelligence?

And yes I use F-35/F-22 as Iran’s primary threat because the most likely war would be fought against US/Israel. It seems you are preparing for a war with Azerbaijan since that’s all you quote.

BS post. Except for its aerodynamic shape, nothing in Kowsar resembles F-5E/F. Its radar+ avionics package, engines, combat suite hell even the wheels are just different, and whatever resembles F-5 has been built new.

Everything resembles an F-5. It’s an upgraded F-5, which in itself was a cheap light plane ment to be supplied to banana countries during the 60’s.

Owj engine is merely reverse engineered F-5 engine. Radar has been upgraded yes, but still outclassed against radars on medium and heavy fighters.

Combat suite has been upgraded from analog to digital and incorporation of LCD screens.

You keep saying BVR Missiles. Which one are you referring to for the Kowsar?

Your logic is wrong. Every country actually does operate light combat fighters in high numbers to complement their main machines. Taiwan has FCK-1 which is morphing into AIDC T-5, Iraq is getting FC-1 and T-50 not just F-16 Block 52, Thai are getting F-5T, India is replacing its 60 years old MIGs, not with SU-30 but with a 4.0 generation LCA, Pakistan has its FC-1 Blk II/II despite having a large fleet of F-16 an option to purchase more J-10C ... the list goes on. IRIAF will purchase probably Sukhois or J-10C too but they will replace F-4E/D, Su-24MK not Kowsars or whatever they will name the next generation of it.

As I have said, Kowsar has its place as a light support aircraft and advanced trainer for Iran. It’s those like you who try to make it an air superiority fighter that I do not agree with it.

Again nobody Iran might face in air combat is operating F-35 except US.

Yes Israel and US. Who do you plan to go to war with? Afghanistan? UAE? Iraq?

Seriously sometimes your posts make wonder..

In real battle scenarios like IRIAF operations during the 2020 war in North west. Kowsars will fly with Fakour armed F-14AM and MIGs (with their R-27E) using some datalink operated from Khatam Al Anbiya network, taking inputs from Sepeher, Qader, Nazir, Asr like G-WACS and SIGNIT behind them. Your idea of one fighter vs one fighter is not realistic at all.

It seems all you can do is regurgitate either one single article of how Iranian Air Force positioned itself in a foreign conflict it had little chance of entering. Or going to global security and using that as your Bible of aircraft capabilities.

We quite frankly do not Iran’s data link capabilities across the unified air defense network.

Nonetheless my point is factual. F-14 and Mig-29 are Iran’s best assets right now to defend airspace. And Iran will need an air superiority like fighter in SU-30 class range to defend its airspace. Kowsar cannot be that fighter.
 

Hack-Hook

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Nonetheless my point is factual. F-14 and Mig-29 are Iran’s best assets right now to defend airspace. And Iran will need an air superiority like fighter in SU-30 class range to defend its airspace. Kowsar cannot be that fighter.
honestly prefer J-10c over su-30 . SU-30 represent brute force approach to problems , chinese airplane use modern technology to answer those problems and it cost less than half to operate them
 
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TheImmortal

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honestly prefer J-10c over su-30 . j-10c represent brute force approach to problems , chinese airplane use modern technology to answer those problems and it cost less than half to operate them

You want to be dependent on China for spare parts? Chinese engines that Iran has zero experience with? Seems recipe for disaster.

And I haven’t seen any credible report of China offering Iran any of its fighters let alone J-10C. I would rather have J-31 if possible. It’s more “future proof” then the 4+ J-10C.
 

BigMelatonin

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You want to be dependent on China for spare parts? Chinese engines that Iran has zero experience with? Seems recipe for disaster.

And I haven’t seen any credible report of China offering Iran any of its fighters let alone J-10C. I would rather have J-31 if possible. It’s more “future proof” then the 4+ J-10C.
Where will the spare parts for Su-30s or other Russian fighters come from?
 

Hack-Hook

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You want to be dependent on China for spare parts? Chinese engines that Iran has zero experience with? Seems recipe for disaster.

And I haven’t seen any credible report of China offering Iran any of its fighters let alone J-10C. I would rather have J-31 if possible. It’s more “future proof” then the 4+ J-10C
we have zero experience with AL-31 or AL-41 so what we must learn about them we can learn about WS-10b also and I yet to see any evidence of russia offering Iran even upgrading our Mig-29 to SMT standard at least there is evidence that several years ago china offered original J-10 and Iran refused
 

TheImmortal

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Where will the spare parts for Su-30s or other Russian fighters come from?

If (and a big IF) Russia signs a deal for SU-30 there would likely be clause for spare parts ToT. Also Russia today is in a different position than last year vis a vi severed western relations. Not that I am optimistic, but chances of getting something now are at the highest point they have been since fall of Soviet Union.

China today has no reason to assist Iran military and in fact can drop Iran at the most minor inconvenience. Their military deals in 1990’s were very telling for Iran.

we have zero experience with AL-31 or AL-41 so what we must learn about them we can learn about WS-10b also and I yet to see any evidence of russia offering Iran even upgrading our Mig-29 to SMT standard at least there is evidence that several years ago china offered original J-10 and Iran refused

We have experience with AL-21 which is precursor to those engines. We have knowledge of Russian parts and Russia weapons ecosystem. Iran is in process of becoming a official regional hub for the repair and modernization of Russian helicopters.

Our engineers are very in tune with Russian and American weapon systems.

Now you want to throw in an entirely new (Chinese) ecosystem? It’s a logistical nightmare.

Iran refused J-10 for reasons they know well. Most of which is lack of faith in Chinese arms procurement. C-802 debacle is still fresh in minds of Iran. Iran has mostly relied on China for raw components and a few things here and there. There must be a reason for that that our military establishment knows.

Pakistan’s relationship with China is much more strategic and iron clad than Iran’s will ever be.
 

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