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First of all SU-35 is not “maintenance heavy” if that is what you are implying especially in comparison to Chinese engine in the J-10.

Second Iran can already build or rehaul the F-5 via the Kowsar variant so no need to reinvent the entire wheel for an advanced trainer or light fighter when it already has a production variant ready. Even 24 Yak-130s would be better than another fruitless effort to build ANOTHER light weight fighter.

The main issue for Iran (besides AESA airborne radar and a ultra modern EW/ECW/sensor package) is the engine. Until you have a heavy engine....you are stuck. And no country in the world is turning over heavy engine tech. China had to spend decades mastering their heavy engine and they had the most access as any country in the world to the latest Russian engines and technology via espionage and other means.

So I’m tired of having this same argument every other week.

Until the engine tech is solved there is no future Iranian fighter. And no country semi friendly to Iran is turning over heavy engine tech. Look what India got in SU-30MKI and SU-75 ToT joint production deal....next to nothing.
It is always nice to research before posting. Iran already produces (from scratch) its own HESA Kowsar-I fighter which is probably the most advanced F-5E/F derivative in the world with a 4.0 Generation combat suit. It is equipped with a local newly built turbojet called OWJ and has a BVR engagement capability up to 93-94 KM (8 x target detection; 2 x simultaneous engagement). If equipped with PL-12 for WVR + R-73E/M (45-60 deg off bore) for WVR combination with HMD, this jet can take on any 4.0 generation fighter jet in the region. The problem of IRIAF is the requirement for a long-range air superiority aerial fighter. Had we acquired some 150+ F-14A instead of 79 we would not have this shortage. So unless we start domestically producing some futuristic version of F-14A or we get Mig-31BM/Su-35S this problem will sustain. We do not need strike aircraft as our missile power (BM and CM) both and UCAV fleet is enormous and combat-proven.

kowsar_5-jpg.816901

1065569_623.jpg

DlH66AJXgAArs8z.jpg

1621944461231-png.747226
DlJFnjiWwAAPCMO

2944798.jpg
Su-35 heavy-weight with dual engine and PESA vs single-engine medium-weight AESA aircraft.
As for Kowsar, If you guys are happy with it, good for you, but when I talk of light-weight aircraft, I don't meant LIFT platform but rather a 4.5 Gen aircraft with composites, single-engine fully digital fly by wire, AESA radar along with good EW suite/net-centric capability.

Of course, engine is an issue along with some other things, and that is why I suggested in my previous post to JOINTLY produce an aircraft, something like we have done with China with JF-17. You can secure those parts which can't be domestically produced yet and keep yourself equipped with latest/advanced technologies in the meantime. If you want to do it all alone, Good Luck!

What I opined is keeping in view the budget restraints too of IRIAF. Despite CM/BMs, Airpower is essential in any conflict since last century. There is no alternative to it and with Iran's enemies having/soon to induct latest variants of aircraft like Typhoons, Rafales, F-16s,F-15s, I don't think you people can ignore such threats.

Unfortunately, I observe too much arrogance from many of you guys which doesn't help you in anything at all. I will take my leave. Best of Luck to IRIAF!
 

drmeson

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the most advanced are considered to be the Brazilian ones

Not exactly.

Brazilian F-5EM .... HESA Kowsar-I

Radar =
Selex Grifo-F (74 km in air-air mode).... IEI Bayyenat II/KLJ-6F (93.6 km in air-air mode)
Airframe = Old with new nosecone .... All modern built (with new weight distribution)
Refueling = IFR probe .... Not available (but was part of Silk Route-2 Project though)
Engine = 2 x J-85-GE-21A (10000-11000 lbf) .... 2 x Newly built OwJ (10000-11000 lbf)
Ejection seats = Martin Baker Mk.10LE .... new IAMI Sarir ejection seats (local K-36D)
Cockpit = Elbit HUD + 2 x LCD-MFD cockpit ... IEI FHUD-I-1 + 3 x LCD-MFD
HOTAS = Yes .... No
E-Warfare = Elbit SPS-1000V-5 RWR with ventral chaff/flares .... IEI SAIRAN Modular suite (RWR/MAWS, Jammer, chaff/flare dispenser)
Navigation = ELBIT INS/GPS + TACAN .... IEI FMMS-I-20 Mobile Mapper + INS/GPS + TACAN
Communications = Elbit V/UHF Rohde & Schwartz M3AR .... IEI ARC-620 U/VHF system
IFF = Elbit IFF ... IEI IFF
HMD = Elbit binocular vision .... SAIRAN HMDS-I-3 displayed
Encrypted Datalink = Yes .... Yes
Targetting system = Rafael Litening III .... IEI Ballistic Computer (similar to SVP-24 Targetting System ???)
Weapons = Python 3/4 or Piranha WVR + I-Derby BVR ... Fatter Aim-9P/J + R-73E WVR + PL-12 BVR (planned in 2015-16 to be procured for F-4E/D Dowran upgrade)

........ They are an even match with Kowsar having better options for the very simple reason that it is still being developed while F-5EM is still an old airframe with MLU. The only current shortcoming is HOTAS which we might see in Kowsar-II (or whatever they will name it in the future).
 

TheImmortal

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Su-35 heavy-weight with dual engine and PESA vs single-engine medium-weight AESA aircraft.
As for Kowsar, If you guys are happy with it, good for you, but when I talk of light-weight aircraft, I don't meant LIFT platform but rather a 4.5 Gen aircraft with composites, single-engine fully digital fly by wire, AESA radar along with good EW suite/net-centric capability.

Of course, engine is an issue along with some other things, and that is why I suggested in my previous post to JOINTLY produce an aircraft, something like we have done with China with JF-17. You can secure those parts which can't be domestically produced yet and keep yourself equipped with latest/advanced technologies in the meantime. If you want to do it all alone, Good Luck!

What I opined is keeping in view the budget restraints too of IRIAF. Despite CM/BMs, Airpower is essential in any conflict since last century. There is no alternative to it and with Iran's enemies having/soon to induct latest variants of aircraft like Typhoons, Rafales, F-16s,F-15s, I don't think you people can ignore such threats.

Unfortunately, I observe too much arrogance from many of you guys which doesn't help you in anything at all. I will take my leave. Best of Luck to IRIAF!

Your opinion is irrelevant because the entire basis of your argument is China will give you engine tech when I have just told you they have never offered us such things. They even screwed on us the C-802 deals in late 90’s.

The only one showing arrogance here is you. Coming in and telling native members what they should do, as if we are cavemen and have never thought of securing a joint project with China or Russia. Thank you for your brilliant insight.

Same argument with these PDF foreigners every month I swear. Guess Pakistan side of the forum is slow.

.... HESA Kowsar-I

Radar =
IEI Bayyenat II/KLJ-6F (93.6 km in air-air mode)

Please post your source on this.
 
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drmeson

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Su-35 heavy-weight with dual engine and PESA vs single-engine medium-weight AESA aircraft.
As for Kowsar, If you guys are happy with it, good for you, but when I talk of light-weight aircraft, I don't meant LIFT platform but rather a 4.5 Gen aircraft with composites, single-engine fully digital fly by wire, AESA radar along with good EW suite/net-centric capability.

You do realize we were under sanctions to purchase fighter jets? Stop talking nonsense. Do you seriously think that the Iranian administration that is fighting wars on 4 different soils is stupid enough not to purchase fighter jets even with an IMF-recorded GDP of 1.1 trillion USD (highest in the Islamic world) ? we did not purchase fighter jets just because we could not. When we can we will and knowing IRIAF that chose F-16A (never delivered), F-4E/D and F-14A when others were flying Sabre-jets and Mig-19, we can be sure they would not bring anything less than Su-35S to Iranian soil that too with TOT.

Kowsar is a technology demonstrator that proved that yes we inside Iran can produce a jet from scratch (with a new body, our own turbojet) with a 4.0 generation combat/avionics suite. Read my post above, I made its comparison with Brazilian F-5EM, you will be surprised. Arm it fully and it can fight on par with any other 4.0 generation fighter jet in the air. Maybe Kowsar-II will be carrying an AESA radar-like KLJ-7A if using the already demonstrated re-designed composite nosecone from Saeghe's research. It already carries KLJ-6F coming from IAMI and CATIC (China) cooperation. I am interested in the next generation of Kowsar because IRIAF is not adopting Kowsar-I very enthusiastically, they are waiting for an even more improved version. More improved Kowsar will be a machine to rely upon.

Of course, engine is an issue along with some other things, and that is why I suggested in my previous post to JOINTLY produce an aircraft, something like we have done with China with JF-17. You can secure those parts which can't be domestically produced yet and keep yourself equipped with latest/advanced technologies in the meantime. If you want to do it all alone, Good Luck!

Secondly, no country gives us anything for political reasons because we are an oil-producing sanctioned nation that has been playing politics on the international stage for decades and still winning against foes regionally. Had we been political poodles or proxy banana republics we would be flying shiny toys from Russia, the US, China, and France, and who not. But we did not so nobody gives us anything. Our missile program, UCAVs, SLVs, and Air defense is thickly indigenous for the very same reason.

JF-17/FC-1 is a 100 % Chinese plane (distantly originating from an abandoned Mikayon-33 design), not even a single bolt in it comes from any other country other than Chinese companies linked to CATIC/AVIC, the same company we started our F-5E/F production program with some 16 years ago. I can literally list its systems and the Chinese companies that produce them starting from KLJ-7 of CETC. It's a Chinese machine that got TOT'ed out. Iran does not fit into this equation.

What I opined is keeping in view the budget restraints too of IRIAF. Despite CM/BMs, Airpower is essential in any conflict since last century. There is no alternative to it and with Iran's enemies having/soon to induct latest variants of aircraft like Typhoons, Rafales, F-16s,F-15s, I don't think you people can ignore such threats.

Unfortunately, I observe too much arrogance from many of you guys which doesn't help you in anything at all. I will take my leave. Best of Luck to IRIAF!

Budget restraints on IRIAF = Will of Iranian decision-makers. Our government does not have any shortage of money for its own doctrines. Find Iran and other regional countries.

1640611501852-png.803732


So, IRIAF has a different problem that many here would not want to accept. It's political and I will give you a keyword called "Noujeh coup" mentality, in case you want to read.

And no IRIAF is not the deal-breaker in Iranian Defence doctrine. With our strong missile power (2-3 staged solid MRBM, Warhead separating MaRVs with CEP of less than 10 m, Skip Glide vehicles, long Range cruise missiles from Land, Air, Sea, undersea) and UCAVs (low RCS stealth wing and wide-bodied MALEs), Air defense (Read about Bavar-373, Talash, etc systems) can wreak havoc against any regional FOE. Newly formed IRIAF will be a bonus in this scheme but it is not stopping us from anything. In a decade, Air warfare will enter the unmanned arena and we are already multifold strong in UCAV R&D. So, if we get some 120 x Su-35S or J-10C then it will be amazing to compliment F-14AM, Mig-29, F-4E/D, Kowsar (Future) but if not then its not like we are defense less.
 

TheImmortal

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Good old BT published a full article on key.aero....

"Bayyenat II Fire Control Radar, installed on 3-7400" pictured below

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DlJFnjiWwAAPCMO


Bayyenat-I is for F-4E Dowran upgrade, live example of Dowran upgraded F-4E with the nosecone removed in Bushehr.

446516447_473025-jpg.550753

Nevermind, I thought you were saying F-5 had 90 nautical mile radar range. I said in what world. But I see now it was KM. It’s a plausible range.
 

drmeson

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Nevermind, I thought you were saying F-5 had 90 nautical mile radar range. I said in what world. But I see now it was KM. It’s a plausible range.

93.6 KM recorded max.

As for 90 NM range bearing radar, that will probably require redesigned nosecone like the one attempted in Saeghe's Ist demonstrator

images
 

TheImmortal

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93.6 KM recorded max.

As for 90 NM range bearing radar, that will probably require redesigned nosecone like the one attempted in Saeghe's Ist demonstrator

images

95 nautical mile would be approaching APG-66 (original F-16 radar level)

I don’t know if that can fit inside a F-5 nose cone. Even modified.

1653011849159.jpeg


Some miniaturization can be made due to tech advances.

This is APG-68 that has raised F-16 range to 180+’miles

1653011923377.jpeg
 

drmeson

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95 nautical mile would be approaching APG-66 (original F-16 radar level)

I don’t know if that can fit inside a F-5 nose cone. Even modified.

View attachment 845579

Some miniaturization can be made due to tech advances.

This is APG-68 that has raised F-16 range to 180+’miles

View attachment 845580

If we go by the logic that F-20/F-5G nosecone shape is same/mild redesign of F-5E/F then Kowsar with Saeghe like nose can easily fit AN/APG-67 that was planned for F-20/F5G and later got into FCK-1. It has a range of 150 km I think.

img08-036-01.jpg

CATIC's main radar supplier is CETC which makes all the KLJ series, they produce custom systems like SELEX so if there will be the intention for a new radar system for Kowsar-II, we might even see a customized antenna KLJ-7A AESA to be fitted in whatever next-generation fighter gets churned out of this Azarakhash => Saeghe => Kowsar Lineage.
 

GrandBotBoi

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Ababil comes in a few different variants but most commonly now used as a loitering munition or for surveillance. The variant Houthis use is a kamikaze drone. The Ababil-3 is only used for surveillance and it can only cover 100km round trip and spend a few hours in the air. I believe Iran has a few of them left over and only uses them for low priority surveillance, like on the border with Afghanistan.

I think the TB2 is more comparable to the Mohajer-6 as a medium sized UAV.
Ababil-3 is still used, and 100km is only the datalink distance

Iran could buy J-10 but army didn't want it . maybe if china at the time would have offered J-10c they would agree on buying it.

and no we don't need flanker . what we need is fighters like J-10c or Mig-35 but with more emphasis on Datalink between the planes. and with the same amount of money you want to spend in flankers you can get twice of those medium fighters.

the most advanced are considered to be the Brazilian ones

more like in class of Mohajer-6

people can decide for themselves if its a new engine or the old one
iu


they claim they elongated it by 1.6m and can carry up to 4-6 ton of cargo something like illushin-112, Casa CN-235 and Boeing V-22 Osprey
Wonder if its possible to add an airborne radar to it ?
Original plan with IrAN-140 was actually an AWACs variant
 

Hack-Hook

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I have a question from our longterm members and Admins:
Shahed 149 uses a 650 to 750 hp turboprop engine. A lot less than the 900 hp Honywell turboprop on the American MQ-9. What prevents Iran from building a larger drone utilizing the 2465 hp TV3-117VMA-SBM1 turboprop?
Such a drone could easily carry a pair of supersonic LRASM and/or long range maritime surveillance in the Indian ocean.
the size and fuel consumption
 

Hack-Hook

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Ababil-3 is still used, and 100km is only the datalink distance


Original plan with IrAN-140 was actually an AWACs variant
the plan was a maritime patrol plane , later they produced a poster and put early warning radar there .
but as @mohsen said the only solution that come in mind is Swedish S100b Argos that is based on SAAB-340 but if you go that route you must accept its inherent limitation which is those two 60 degree dead zones in front and back , in short you must to use two airplane to cover the desired area
 

Hack-Hook

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If we go by the logic that F-20/F-5G nosecone shape is same/mild redesign of F-5E/F then Kowsar with Saeghe like nose can easily fit AN/APG-67 that was planned for F-20/F5G and later got into FCK-1. It has a range of 150 km I think.

img08-036-01.jpg

CATIC's main radar supplier is CETC which makes all the KLJ series, they produce custom systems like SELEX so if there will be the intention for a new radar system for Kowsar-II, we might even see a customized antenna KLJ-7A AESA to be fitted in whatever next-generation fighter gets churned out of this Azarakhash => Saeghe => Kowsar Lineage.
another solution would be what Leonardo did with RAVEN and Vixen series of radar . it allow to put bigger radar in smaller nose while provide wider angle of view (100 degree against normal 60 degree)
iu

here the dish rotate around its center and field of view would be like this
iu


the Idea seems intresting compared to normal AESA radars
 
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drmeson

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another solution would be what Leonardo did with RAVEN and Vixen series of radar . it allow to put bigger radar in smaller nose while provide wider angle of view (100 degree against normal 60 degree)
iu

here the dish rotate around its center and field of view would be like this
iu


the Idea seems intresting compared to normal AESA radars

Yes, these options are there but going with the rationale that Kowsar originates from the cooperation between IAMI Iran and CATIC China and the fact that the current radar for Kowsar is TOT'ed KLJ-6F from NREIT China, the highest possible chances exist that the next derivative of this series will have a KLJ series AESA to mate with PL-12 ARH.

klj-7-1542634851.jpg


This can easily fit in the composite nosecone of this Saeqeh demonstrator no. 3-7370. The weight and wattage are not high either. If this nosecone is installed on Kowsar, it can house KLJ-7A AESA easily. Highly likely it will happen.

Iranian-fighter-jet.jpg
 

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