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SalarHaqq

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Yes Sepah's first SLV attempt was a success, but looking at the big picture, the satellite they put into space weighted a measly 12-24 kg and was pretty much a small camera or webcam in space. Iran's first ever satellite, Omid from 2009 weighed 24 kgs and since then Iran has been able to successfully place 50 kg satellites into space (Fajr, Navid)

Yes the Iranian space agency has experienced some failures but you have to give them credit, they are trying to place a 350 kg payload into space. They're going forward, not backwards and the fact that they are trying to leapfrog so ambitiously to such a payload is commendable. Especially considering that Rohani slashed their budget.

Yes many of their recent launches have failed but with each successive launch, they have progressed in the various, subsequent stages. The only reason the last launch failed was because the final stage did not reach the required speed. However they did get close and previously they had issues with prior stages which they have now overcome.

Do you recall a few years ago when North Korea's missile launches were all failing one after another. At one point something like half a dozen or more failed one after another. Many in the west dismissed them and laughed. Well nobody is laughing now are they ?

Also look at how many times Space X launches have failed in the past. Recently, 4 US hypersonic tests in a row failed. Meanwhile China has already deployed hypersonic missiles on mass. Russia is close behind and North Korea keeps conducting successful tests.

The USA, the worlds sole super power, on the other hand keeps failing. How then has China been able to successfully add hypersonic weapons to its arsenal so rapidly ? The answer is simple. It's because in the last 5 years the Chinese conducted hundreds of tests while the US only conducted 5 tests.

When it comes to rocket launches, failed attempts are a part of the game. As long as knowledge is attained from each attempt and progress is made, then in the big picture the launch is actually a success.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sepah's launching method and protocol allow for better security against potential sabotage attempts by the enemy; as a matter of fact, Trump didn't have the opportunity to parade silly satellite pictures of the IRGC-conducted SLV launch like he could do with the failed Space Agency launch.

So here the IRGC's achievement is undeniable. With regards to space launches, Sepah literally came out of the blue, surprised everyone with unsuspected capabilities and hitherto unseen technologies, succeded on their first try.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was not trying to badmouth the work accomplished by the Space Agency to date, and indeed failures are a normal feature in this business. However when it comes to the weight of the satellite put into orbit by Sepah, as indicated in my previous reply, their SLV could very well have carried heavier ones considering its caracteristics. So that's not a limitation for Sepah. The aim of the launch was to demonstrate technologies and send a political message, at least as much as to launch that satellite. They demonstrated a functioning SLV, a latent road-mobile, solid fueled ICBM capability as well as carbon fiber bodied, thrust vector nozzled rocket engine with the Salman stage.
 
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yugocrosrb95

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For engine, Jahesh-700 as stated in this debate before. Secondly, Iran could development a radar, of if it procures SU-35S, make a radar based on it's
Not for F-5 series.

I mentioned Jahesh due to technological milestones that Iran achieved with successful reverse engineering of FJ33 that gives credence to ability of Iranian aerospace industry to produce bigger turbofan engines due to challenges that a small twin spool would have as is with FJ44 and FJ33 turbofan engines.

Jahesh could be upscaled to replace Owj turbojets inside Yasin that would increase range of Yasin trainer jet along flight time by over 2 times.
 

TheImmortal

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The Kowsar uses advanced radar!!


Radar Griffin has a range of 70-90 km for the Kowsar combat aircraft Is capable of detecting air and ground targets, as well as synchronizing with radar air-to-air missiles

View attachment 808483
A joke post by a propaganda user


F-15 with APG-63 Radar: 410 kilometers

F-16 with ABR Radar: 275 kilometers

F-22 with APG-77 Radar: 490 kilometers

F-35 with APG-81 Radar: 200KM+

And this guy is sending an F-5 on suicide mission with 70-90KM radar range that cannot detect F-22 or F-35 and will likely get jammed by F-15 or F-16 since they can detect the F-5 from 3-5x the range of the F-5’s radar.
 

Muhammed45

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A joke post by a propaganda user


F-15 with APG-63 Radar: 410 kilometers

F-16 with ABR Radar: 275 kilometers

F-22 with APG-77 Radar: 490 kilometers

F-35 with APG-81 Radar: 200KM+

And this guy is sending an F-5 on suicide mission with 70-90KM radar range that cannot detect F-22 or F-35 and will likely get jammed by F-15 or F-16 since they can detect the F-5 from 3-5x the range of the F-5’s radar.
One thing for sure, there is no un-detect-able fighter jet in the world. The radar waves gives it away. When apg77 sends electro magnetic pulse to beyond 400 KM, be sure that other radars are receving its wavelengths too.
 

TheImmortal

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One thing for sure, there is no un-detect-able fighter jet in the world. The radar waves gives it away. When apg77 sends electro magnetic pulse to beyond 400 KM, be sure that other radars are receving its wavelengths too.
If your goal to detect an F-22 and F-35 is based on its radar emissions and being in the right location at right time then good luck with that strategy.

Your strategy works both ways, that same fighter that detects those radar waves will need to send waves back out to find radars exact location rather than general direction. Thus it took ends up leaking radiation everywhere.

Discussion was survivability of a F-5 or rather a super redesigned F-5 against any modern 4+ Or 5th Gen fighter that an adversary would field. And the F-5 loses in all fields (speed, maneuverability, armament, radar, cross section detection pattern).

But of course we have users who do not want to accept reality and sit around coming up with silly fantasies on how a modified 1960’s fighter that cost $5M can compete against a advanced warfighter whose radar and avionics suite alone cost more than the whole F-5.

F-5 projects was great for building domestic knowledge and experience. Good for upgrading an aging plane and even as an advance trainer.

That’s about it. Will never be anything more than that.
 

Muhammed45

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If your goal to detect an F-22 and F-35 is based on its radar emissions and being in the right location at right time then good luck with that strategy.

Your strategy works both ways, that same fighter that detects those radar waves will need to send waves back out to find radars exact location rather than general direction. Thus it took ends up leaking radiation everywhere.

Discussion was survivability of a F-5 or rather a super redesigned F-5 against any modern 4+ Or 5th Gen fighter that an adversary would field. And the F-5 loses in all fields (speed, maneuverability, armament, radar, cross section detection pattern).

But of course we have users who do not want to accept reality and sit around coming up with silly fantasies on how a modified 1960’s fighter that cost $5M can compete against a advanced warfighter whose radar and avionics suite alone cost more than the whole F-5.

F-5 projects was great for building domestic knowledge and experience. Good for upgrading an aging plane and even as an advance trainer.

That’s about it. Will never be anything more than that.
It gives F5 and F4 a chance to scape. That was what I was thinking about not to stand up to F22 or F35.

USAF is completely capable of inflicting damage on our airforce, it would be silly to think that any of existing fighter jets could counter them. That's impossible. Even Chinese J20 stands no chance against it. The only platform that can resist for a couple of seconds before getting downed against F22 is SU50.

Iranian strategy against USAF is the same area denial. Accept the possible damage and destroy their airbases immediately.
 

drmeson

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It gives F5 and F4 a chance to scape. That was what I was thinking about not to stand up to F22 or F35.

USAF is completely capable of inflicting damage on our airforce, it would be silly to think that any of existing fighter jets could counter them. That's impossible. Even Chinese J20 stands no chance against it. The only platform that can resist for a couple of seconds before getting downed against F22 is SU50.

Iranian strategy against USAF is the same area denial. Accept the possible damage and destroy their airbases immediately.
in current form, IRIAF will not survive against regional foes let alone some combat-ready squadrons of USAF or USN. Our biggest deterrence is our IRGC led Aerospace command, namely BM, CM, UCAVs, and naval damage that we can inflict in the Persian gulf.


.............

For those who are advocating budget cut down for IRGC or making fun of them for being the bue eyed boy of the leadership, please read below.

On regional levels, IRIAF can be made a proper fighting force with a budget of 8-10 billion USD and nothing less. From this, 4-5 billion straightway will go towards the procurement of 4-5 squadrons of a proper 4+ MRCA, be it Su-30SM, Su-35S or J-10C.

1 billion towards procurement of modern A2A weaponry like RVV-AE, R-73M, PL-8, PL-12 along with A2G like KH-31 A/P for Su-24M (Iran has showed intentions for such procurements).

Then we need heavy foreign companies led modernization of Mig-29, F-4 fleets.

Then comes domestic up-gradation programs of F-14, Su-24.

Last but not least, we need EITAM like 4x Iran140-AEW to cover a large area.

........... All of these 10 Billion USD will just put up IRIAF back in action to the point that we can take on any regional Airforces. This is the conventional strategy that most countries follow and they fail when going gets tough against menaces like US/NATO/Israel.

........... Give the same amount of money to Vezarate Defa/IRGC and you will see literally MaRVs on IRBM/MRBMin underground silos, long-range land-attack CM on multi-barrel launchers, powerful AShCM/AShBM, MALE UCAV fleets, long range AD ... list goes on We are already seeing this for more than a decade now. This scares our enemies, esp regional enemies more than what a conventionally armed IRIAF that I mentioned above. Arming IRIAF is necessary but does it suit our current doctrine?
 

sha ah

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Yes IRIAF needs a huge boost in their budget and an influx of new, modern equipment. They need to upgrade their current inventory, as well the procurement of a dozen flanker squadrons, SU-35, SU-30. More importantly Iran needs to build several hardened mountain air bases similar to what China has. Especially against regional rivals, this will greatly increase the survivability of Iran's airforce.

in current form, IRIAF will not survive against regional foes let alone some combat-ready squadrons of USAF or USN. Our biggest deterrence is our IRGC led Aerospace command, namely BM, CM, UCAVs, and naval damage that we can inflict in the Persian gulf.


.............

For those who are advocating budget cut down for IRGC or making fun of them for being the bue eyed boy of the leadership, please read below.

On regional levels, IRIAF can be made a proper fighting force with a budget of 8-10 billion USD and nothing less. From this, 4-5 billion straightway will go towards the procurement of 4-5 squadrons of a proper 4+ MRCA, be it Su-30SM, Su-35S or J-10C.

1 billion towards procurement of modern A2A weaponry like RVV-AE, R-73M, PL-8, PL-12 along with A2G like KH-31 A/P for Su-24M (Iran has showed intentions for such procurements).

Then we need heavy foreign companies led modernization of Mig-29, F-4 fleets.

Then comes domestic up-gradation programs of F-14, Su-24.

Last but not least, we need EITAM like 4x Iran140-AEW to cover a large area.

........... All of these 10 Billion USD will just put up IRIAF back in action to the point that we can take on any regional Airforces. This is the conventional strategy that most countries follow and they fail when going gets tough against menaces like US/NATO/Israel.

........... Give the same amount of money to Vezarate Defa/IRGC and you will see literally MaRVs on IRBM/MRBMin underground silos, long-range land-attack CM on multi-barrel launchers, powerful AShCM/AShBM, MALE UCAV fleets, long range AD ... list goes on We are already seeing this for more than a decade now. This scares our enemies, esp regional enemies more than what a conventionally armed IRIAF that I mentioned above. Arming IRIAF is necessary but does it suit our current doctrine?
I've heard that the IR sensors on the Russian flankers can easily detect F-35, F-22 from long distances.

One thing for sure, there is no un-detect-able fighter jet in the world. The radar waves gives it away. When apg77 sends electro magnetic pulse to beyond 400 KM, be sure that other radars are receving its wavelengths too.
 

Muhammed45

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Yes IRIAF needs a huge boost in their budget and an influx of new, modern equipment. They need to upgrade their current inventory, as well the procurement of a dozen flanker squadrons, SU-35, SU-30. More importantly Iran needs to build several hardened mountain air bases similar to what China has. Especially against regional rivals, this will greatly increase the survivability of Iran's airforce.


I've heard that the IR sensors on the Russian flankers can easily detect F-35, F-22 from long distances.
That's the nature of military science sir.

Americans have made a 'measure', others would try to develop the required countermeasure. Even F-18 Growler could deter F-22 through electronic warfare solutions. Remember the useless French made fighters which could make problems for IRIAF's F-14s. Pilots had their missiles locked unable to fire them.

All in all, we can survive against the regional foes in the air by developing various countermeasures and solutions but against USAF which can easily reinforce and send back up in a couple of days an airforce that can produce as many as fighter jets when the need arise, we have to just focus on area denial capability as @drmeson mentioned above.

Iran has own plans for 5th generation fighter jet but as of now being decades behind USAF, we have to use that tactic till developing a trustworthy platform based on any suitable paltform that we currently possess.

The reason why IRIAF started with F-5s has a long story. Point is, it was a good step towards developing a reliable jet before preparing TVC capable Turbofan engines. Everything is ready to make a formidable indigenous fighter aircraft. I believe Iran has no technological hurdle in the way of developing a long range radar given Iranian experience with different eastern/western radars and Nano edge that Iran possesses.

It might be time consuming, in which, the political will of governments can play as a catalyst by providing IRIAF and the defense ministry with needed budget to develop it asap.
 
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Why not finish IRGC?
This will enable every service to recognize its responsibiliy and devise plans to do their work more appropriately even in shortage of money.

IRGC can be specialized to fight proxy wars if you don't want to finish it completely.
For example, there is space agency that is developing SLV related stuff then why is IRGC again wasting money on SLVs.It makes no sense for IRGC to produce UAVs when other institutions are already doing this stuff.

There is not a single country in the world except Iran that have IRGC like nonesense institution which is sucking budget that can be used to conduct research in some other fields.

Like:
Raising some private firms that can provide sub systems to Govt. owned assembling factories like HAL in India and HIT in Pakistan.
 

sha ah

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Sometimes healthy competition develops results. Sometimes when you put all your eggs in one basket, without any competition, there is no incentive and no alternative, therefore an institution can stagnate and become complacent.

For example, in the US, for a long time American auto makers had no serious competition. They became complacent and produced inferior products, even got greedy and were guilty of obsolescence. Japanese automakers came and wiped the floor with them. Now because of the competition they produce better products and their standards have increased because consumers have an alternative.

IRGC is no different from a military having various branches. Like the US has the Marines and how the Navy and airforce both have their own airforces and compete for government funding.

Why not finish IRGC?
This will enable every service to recognize its responsibiliy and devise plans to do their work more appropriately even in shortage of money.

IRGC can be specialized to fight proxy wars if you don't want to finish it completely.
For example, there is space agency that is developing SLV related stuff then why is IRGC again wasting money on SLVs.It makes no sense for IRGC to produce UAVs when other institutions are already doing this stuff.

There is not a single country in the world except Iran that have IRGC like nonesense institution which is sucking budget that can be used to conduct research in some other fields.

Like:
Raising some private firms that can provide sub systems to Govt. owned assembling factories like HAL in India and HIT in Pakistan.
 
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Mr Iran Eye

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Don't ask General TheImmortal to understand the art of war and large scale combat strategies, he can't understand that. The F-5s are there in attack support to defend the territory and will be linked to ground radar and other combat aircraft and drones. Enemy aircraft radars will be overloaded by combat aircraft, drones, decoys in the sky, electronic warfare, air defense systems, laser systems

It has been said that the advanced Kowsar would be related to drones by artificial intelligence. Iran is already targeting 6th generation aircraft by making the f-5 an unmanned aircraft. They know that the USA, Russia, China works for the 6th generation.
 

Oldman1

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Replace the engine with what? The Owj which is the engine that is in the F-5 to begin with?

Replace radar with what? Iran doesn’t produce any modern long range 4++ or 5th Gen radar.

This is SU-35 radar
View attachment 808392
This is F-22 radar
View attachment 808393
This is F-35 radar
View attachment 808395

You will not compete with these radars using a F-5 modernized radar. Not happening.

F-22/F-35/F-15 will consistently out detect an super F-5 carrying 2 tanks and 3 Fakour 90’s on its pylons.
The first picture is not actually the SU-35 radar.
Raytheon APG-79 AESA (US Navy image)
 

Muhammed45

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IRGC doesn't make parallel projects but its IRIAF that sometimes did that. For example they could operate Shahed drones instead of trying to develop same platform with same capabilities. Like the IRIN purchase of IRGC made drones. Sometimes IRIAF shocks me with wasting budget on something that currently exists in IRGC inventory.

IRGC Space activities is not parallel to that of Space Agency either. They have focused on developing solid propellant with this mindset that we might one day turn them into ICBMs. Cost effective as much as possible, be prepared to be launched on a TEL in a couple of minutes or seconds, easy to maintain, being able to produce a huge number of them in a short span of time and with lowest possible budget.

IRIAF has one job, be self sufficient. Avoid wasting budget on the existing drone platforms. And develop a national fighter jet.
 

Sineva

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IRGC doesn't make parallel projects but its IRIAF that sometimes did that. For example they could operate Shahed drones instead of trying to develop same platform with same capabilities. Like the IRIN purchase of IRGC made drones. Sometimes IRIAF shocks me with wasting budget on something that currently exists in IRGC inventory.
Sad but true,sadly.
Its actually worse than that,as the iriaf tried for around 15+ years to build a drone program virtually from scratch,essentially trying to reinvent work that the irgc drone program already did back in the 80s!!

IRIAF has one job, be self sufficient. Avoid wasting budget on the existing drone platforms. And develop a national fighter jet.
Ah,if only.....
I dont think that they even remotely have that ability,to be honest.
I mean if they cant even build fvcking drones without help,well then frankly the idea of them producing a national fighter jet is quite literally a joke.
The sad irony is that there are things that they likely could do [with some help of course] that could improve the airforces capabilities markedly.
 

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