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Blue In Green

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Thank you Blue.

I am not offended personally, he does not know me, nor do I know him, nor wish to after his bluster.

I DO NOT WANT this forum, as little as we Iranians have to reach each other and share perspectives, to be convoluted into a mindless stage of ignorance and conceit, with ego and arrogance bashing people senselessly. Sometimes I read replies, and all I can think of is ... "did that person read the post carefully? cause it doesn't seem to me the reply is anything to do with what the post was really trying to say".

I would like everyone here to be respectful of each other, and come together and stand together and share knowledge and help elevate each other. Otherwise, I have much better things to do than to be part of yet another Iranian-bashing feast by anger-tantrum ADHD characters.
Fair enough, I can commiserate with you on this aspect but then again I would be a hypocrite If i didn't admit to my own faults here on PDF in the past (just a little-bit about me incase you were curious). Truth be told (and ask anyone here) I used to be the Iranian PDF sections "attack dog" of sorts lol. Until I one-day grew up and realized "I'm an adult, arguing with nameless, faceless people on a niché forum" so I let that go and just engaged in cordial honest discussions about Iranian related affairs.

I do agree with you absolutely though. This forum needs more professional and courteous discussions without the interjection of baseless vitriol, jingoism and hostility brought on by pride, arrogance, ignorance and the like. Although given the very nature of the forum, it's almost entirely impossible to avoid it (I would know, I used to be a severe offender of this lol).

Anyways, what's your personal thoughts on the deal? To me it really does feel like a pipe-dream because the more I think about the wholistic issues, the less likely it is that it'll be followed through. Russia and Iran do not exist in a vacuum and Russia has more to lose (way more) than Iran does if they over extended their hand too much. Which would lead to any actual deal being rather....how does one say... lackluster. The consequences facing the Russian Federation range from minuscule to severe if the deal is viewed as too "Iranian forgiving". Can't imagine the Russians would willingly let go of tens-of-billions of dollars in economic deals over the sale of some 1-3 billion in jets to Iran.

Iran needs large quantities of fighters to replace its museum fleet. Acquiring meager batches and paltry numbers overall will only hamper the IRIAF as they now will have to service their older planes and the newer ones since they don't have enough new to offset the old-ones. Further compounding the already besieged air-force that is barely limping along.

Whatever this deal is or isn't, Iran needs to push for something worthwhile. Money and time is the biggest problems facing Iran when it comes to big-ticket weapon systems like this. Iran can ill-afford to spend billions of dollars, possibly stumbling into yet another S-300-esque fiasco. It would be very damaging.
 

EvilWesteners

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Fair enough, I can commiserate with you on this aspect but then again I would be a hypocrite If i didn't admit to my own faults here on PDF in the past (just a little-bit about me incase you were curious). Truth be told (and ask anyone here) I used to be the Iranian PDF sections "attack dog" of sorts lol. Until I one-day grew up and realized "I'm an adult, arguing with nameless, faceless people on a niché forum" so I let that go and just engaged in cordial honest discussions about Iranian related affairs.

I do agree with you absolutely though. This forum needs more professional and courteous discussions without the interjection of baseless vitriol, jingoism and hostility brought on by pride, arrogance, ignorance and the like. Although given the very nature of the forum, it's almost entirely impossible to avoid it (I would know, I used to be a severe offender of this lol).

Anyways, what's your personal thoughts on the deal? To me it really does feel like a pipe-dream because the more I think about the wholistic issues, the less likely it is that it'll be followed through. Russia and Iran do not exist in a vacuum and Russia has more to lose (way more) than Iran does if they over extended their hand too much. Which would lead to any actual deal being rather....how does one say... lackluster. The consequences facing the Russian Federation range from minuscule to severe if the deal is viewed as too "Iranian forgiving". Can't imagine the Russians would willingly let go of tens-of-billions of dollars in economic deals over the sale of some 1-3 billion in jets to Iran.

Iran needs large quantities of fighters to replace its museum fleet. Small batches and small numbers overall will only hamper the IRIAF as they now will have to service their older planes and the newer ones since they don't have enough new to offset the old-ones. Further compounding the already besieged air-force that is barely limping along.

Whatever this deal is or isn't, Iran needs to push for something worthwhile. Money and time is the biggest problems facing Iran when it comes to big-ticket weapon systems like this. Iran can ill-afford to spend billions of dollars, possibly stumbling into yet another S-300-esque fiasco. It would be very damaging.
Great perspective Blue.

Let me just add a little to it.

I have many Jewish friends, who are in very powerful positions. When I am with them, when I listen to them, and I see the depth of their thinking, I AM QUITE BEWILDERED by their unique CLARITY of UNITY.

I can tell you countless stories of how the Jewish people I know have stood up for each other, with vast amounts of money, backed each other up, and they were relentless in supporting each other.

Yet, some Iranians still (to my horror) have not LEARNT the BASICS of UNITY. Some of us can't even talk to inspire each other, to lift each other up, to motivate, to support, to nurture the younger ones, to be the advocate. Ego is one of the most horrifying aspects of some Iranians and like a disease it infects and destroys UNITY for worthless temporary gratification. In actual reality, it is utterly worthless and inconsequential.

I aspire for Iranians to learn what has kept us down, and unite, and support, and elevate each other so we can demand our rightful place in history, or at the very least, defend and protect our rights and our home.

Hence, why I get upset when I witness the demonstration of idiocy of self-gratification of arrogance at the expense of a higher cause --- AT A TIME WHEN OUR COUNTRY NEEDS US TO STAND TOGETHER. Many of our people are suffering back home. Civilians faced with the monstrosity of sanctions against civilians for food or medicine, during a pandemic.

How could I not get angry over a worthless arrogance that results from the self esteem of a pigeon.

Regarding Iran's AF equipment ...

I believe in self-sufficiency. General Mohammad Khatami, Head of AF use to talk about it non stop in 1975, months before he died. After 4 decades, I believe in it 100%. However, If Iran is leveraging, or utilizing strategies to coarse and obtain TOT at whatever level suits it, I would be perfectly happy with that strategy too. There I stand.

Thanks Blue.
 
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Blue In Green

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Great perspective Blue.

Let me just add a little to it.

I have many Jewish friends, who are in very powerful positions. When I am with them, when I listen to them, and I see the depth of their thinking, I AM QUITE BEWILDERED by their unique CLARITY of UNITY.

I can tell you countless stories of how the Jewish people I know have stood up for each other, with vast amounts of money, backed each other up, and they were relentless in supporting each other.

Yet, some Iranians still (to my horror) have not LEARNT the BASIC of UNITY. Some of us can't even talk to inspire each other, to lift each other up, to motivate, to support, to nurture the younger ones, to be the advocate. Ego is one of the most horrifying aspects of some Iranians and like a disease it infects and destroys UNITY for worthless temporary gratification. In actual reality, it is utterly worthless and inconsequential.

I aspire for Iranians to learn what has kept us down, and unite, and support, and elevate each other so we can demand our rightful place in history, or at the very least, defend and protect our rights and our home.

Hence, why I get upset when I witness the demonstration of idiocy of self-gratification of arrogance at the expense of a higher cause --- AT A TIME WHEN OUR COUNTRY NEEDS US TO STAND TOGETHER. Many of our people are suffering back home. Civilians faced with the monstrosity of sanctions against civilians for food or medicine, during a pandemic.

How could I not get angry over a worthless arrogance that results in self esteem of a pigeon.

Regarding Iran's AF equipment ...

I believe in self-sufficiency. General Mohammad Khatami, Head of AF use to talk about it non stop in 1975, months before he died. After 4 decades, I believe in it 100%. However, If Iran is leveraging, or utilizing strategies to coarse and obtain TOT at whatever level suits it, I would be perfectly happy with that strategy to. There I stand.

Thanks Blue.
I've been waiting for someone to put into words what I've also personally thought of general Iranian disunity but I do feel like this is a problem more endemic to diaspora Iranians although it's quite common in Iran itself, so it's still a dangerous problem no matter how you cut it.

Thank you, (sincerely) for putting it so eloquently! 100% agreed.

United we stand, divided we fall but I'm also America so my loyalties are all over the place really lol.

Thank you again for this conversation EvilWesterners, you're a truly welcomed voice here on PDF!
 

EvilWesteners

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I've been waiting for someone to put into words what I've also personally thought of general Iranian disunity but I do feel like this is a problem more endemic to diaspora Iranians although it's quite common in Iran itself, so it's still a dangerous problem no matter how you cut it.

Thank you, (sincerely) for putting it so eloquently! 100% agreed.

United we stand, divided we fall but I'm also America so my loyalties are all over the place really lol.

Thank you again for this conversation EvilWesterners, you're a truly welcomed voice here on PDF!
Thank you my friend. You are gentleman and a great contributor offering us all a deeper view. Thank you.
 

sanel1412

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Well this whole discussion is not based on any rumors or leaked info from un named source,discussion is based on statement Bagheri himself gave in Iranian embassy in Moscow...
 

Nevsky

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Russia and Israel are connected by ‘very deep bond’ & Putin is ‘close, true friend’ of the Jewish people, says Israeli PM Bennett
Empty words, as always when it comes to the relations between Moscow and Tel Aviv. Have you seen them signing something or actually talk about area of a future cooperation? All of those pointless visits and messages from the Russian side are only because that there are still like 15% Russian speaking population in Israel. But as I said it wont lead to nothing, Putin knows it, Bennett knows it and Im sure that their counterparts in Teheran also knows it.


Can't imagine the Russians would willingly let go of tens-of-billions of dollars in economic deals over the sale of some 1-3 billion in jets to Iran.
Can you explain this a bit more? Tens of billion of deals with who? Maybe such a deal can hurt future cooperation between Riyadh and Moscow, but thats it. The relations with the USA are disastrously bad, the ones with Israel are almost non existent in terms of economy, so I cant see where these 10s of billions would come from.
 
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925boy

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Well , Russians want to have Iran as a card for next years , now they can make contract and negotiate with western and arabs about giving Iran anything or not ...
this time they won't make any mistake and will sign a contract that they will be able to cancel it without any consequence ( they have their lessons from S-300 contracts )

even if they give iran anything , they won't support these fighters or will give their downgraded version which in mean time they will negotiate with western , israeils and arabs to buy the fighters specifications ...
GOod comments brother.

Lets accept a powerful truth here- If you are a country that RUssia and China are afraid to sell weapons to, that means you are a very powerful country, and there are few non-western countries that fall into this category. THis is a big compliment to Iranian power- its powerful enough to irk top global powers like Russia and CHina...even though it makes logical sense for them to do so! Which other country has $billions ready to spend, not on UN sanctions list, wants to buy weapons from Russia and CHina and cant? ONly western countries i can think of that fall into that category, aka sanctioned countries (by Russia and China).
 

yavar

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@yavar, what do you think about that?
Is Iran in the advanced turbojet fighter (with AL-21 or similar engine)?
Is Iran in the turbofan trap, with RD-33 or similar engine?
AL-21
Making or overcoming technological barrier it is not mean the mass production, mass production is another,
We are about 5 to 4 years from be able to produce quantity, The machinery and the speed of production, if (Big IF ) We have money,

Produce a new good engine will not necessary lead to produce of Qualitative edge Aircraft,

They are many more obstacles to overcome, even the nozzle of the engine it’s self is another steps which requires time + more ex...... steps
 
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Moon

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I have, they say it is but how do they know ? am i missing something ?
I think it can be because more credible Iranian observers would've reported it first.
No way can news like this go under the radar (pun intended).

It's been 2 hours since the tweet was made, would've made rounds by now.

Secondly won't the IRIAF have known the pilot in the chase plane? He would've been in big trouble had he leaked something like this, and I'm sure he'd be well aware of it.
 

TheImmortal

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Not only is F-313 video a hoax, that whole program was a hoax by the fraudulent Ahmadinejad regime.

I will never forget the DMs face being asked questions about the plane, he was supremely embarrassed answering that during the unveiling.

10+ years later and nothing to show for the program besides a taxi run with a glorified frankstein F-5 with a body kit on it.

I gave Iran the benefit of the doubt on that program for years and in the end, I was right. It was a crude joke.

Project is shelved people need to move on. The design needs massive modifications to be a viable fighter ever worth producing.
 

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