What's new

IRIAF | News and Discussions

aryobarzan

FULL MEMBER
Feb 17, 2019
1,549
1
4,655
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
Canada
This is a massive fallacy and goes against past precedent. Quite frankly it’s disappointing talk from such an knowledable member of the forum.

There is no Iranian arms contract worth pissing off the Israelis and US. Remember that they have pressure points on sensitive Russian interests as well. For years they dangled supposed “Iranian missile interceptors” in Europe as negotiating tactic to prevent Russian from helping Iran.

Past evidence is quite clear.....since 1990’s many “large” contracts were placed with a cash strapped and collapsed post Soviet Russia and most got cancelled. So when Russia was most desperate for cash they still screwed Iran.

Things are so bad that Iran did not trust Russia to refurbish its Kilo subs, it secretly feared that Russia (who was asking for the refurbishment to be done in Russia) would never return the subs back. It was one of the reasons Iran decided to do it themselves.

So again the “trust me this time is different bro”excuse is tired and worn out. A $5B or $10B contract won’t make Russia risk geopolitical fall out that could cost it 20,50, 100B in the long run. Billions don’t make Russians get out of bed, maybe Iranians, but not the Russians.

And the T-50 project only proves my point. India complained that Russia went against contract terms. Didn’t share ToT, repeatedly kept India in the dark, and kept raising the costs on India to fund the project. India eventually left out of frustration. That example is a prime reason where India that has ZERO problems getting weapons was still screwed by over by Russia.

Now imagine if Iran was involved in that? And that’s what your advocating? Wow seems like Shafagh project is a distant memory.

Relying on Russia for big ticket offensive items is what a fool would do.
The extent of Zionist control of Russia (and Putin and friends) is a subject that even Russians themselves do not agree upon its extent...But yes in any case Russia does what is good for Russia and selling game changing hardware to Iran is not good for Russia and not in the cards (your point)..unless the Price tag is way high (my guess > $50 billion) and that is far beyond what Iran is willing to put on the table (Amir's point).

I am actually happy that the end result is no purchase will happen sellers are not selling and buyer is not interested...All doors closed so lets roll up the sleeves and start the journey to a serious In-house aviation Industry ..It is doable (how do you eat and elephant!!...one spoon at a time!.:azn::azn:)
 

Menschmaschine

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 24, 2020
44
1
81
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
There is no Iranian arms contract worth pissing off the Israelis and US.
If you had paid any attention to the relationship between the US and Russia in the last half decade or so, you would have noted that it is already characterised by an extreme hostility of the US to Russia. It is obviously ridiculous to expect that a denial for some arms contract would change something about this.

As for Israel, in itself it is of course of no particular importance - it is only important because of the influence it has on the US via the Jewish-Zionist lobby. Note however that while US hostility to Russia is indeed driven in large part by Jewish animosity, this is not out of a specific Zionist motivation, but mainly because of a historical grudge regarding the supposed injustices Jews according to their victim mythology had to endure by Russia after its takeover of the Pale of Settlement.

Of course, the fact that it would be futile to try to mollify the the US by a denial of an arms contract with Iran does not preclude that the Russian government still would do it. Foreign policy is often not rational. But, as I said, we won't know until Iran actually tries to place an order.
 

Menschmaschine

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 24, 2020
44
1
81
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
The extent of Zionist control of Russia (and Putin and friends) is a subject that even Russians themselves do not agree upon its extent...
I read a comment by a Russian that Russia is the only country were the Armenian lobby has more influence than the Jewish lobby (Which is obviously still not very great).

The animosity of the US to Russia is also a clear indicator. Jews have been spoiled by their control of the US and by extension the rest of the "Western" world. Any major country, even if not adverse to Jewisch interests and Israel, that is not under their influence is therefore viewed with suspicion and hostility. You can see this play out in the aggressivene behaviour of the US against Russia and China (In the case of Russia additionally historical grudges also play a role, as I have explained in another post).
 

WudangMaster

FULL MEMBER
Apr 17, 2014
701
-2
1,245
Country
United States
Location
United States
and China had to make everything itself.
I think China did have access to Mig-21 parts when they were transiting through China enroute to North Vietnam. I heard they were transferred by rail and by the time they arrived in Hanoi, the Soviets found that components were replicated with Chinese copies and original parts were removed. This was due to Soviets refusing to transfer all ToT to China for the Mig-21, like they had promised to do. So another example of Soviets/Russians screwing over customers, but this time, China was determined to gets its rights!
And the T-50 project only proves my point. India complained that Russia went against contract terms. Didn’t share ToT, repeatedly kept India in the dark, and kept raising the costs on India to fund the project. India eventually left out of frustration. That example is a prime reason where India that has ZERO problems getting weapons was still screwed by over by Russia.
I heard similar nightmares stories for India involving their aircraft carrier purchase from Russia...
 

Menschmaschine

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 24, 2020
44
1
81
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
I think China did have access to Mig-21 parts when they were transiting through China enroute to North Vietnam. I heard they were transferred by rail and by the time they arrived in Hanoi, the Soviets found that components were replicated with Chinese copies and original parts were removed. This was due to Soviets refusing to transfer all ToT to China for the Mig-21, like they had promised to do. So another example of Soviets/Russians screwing over customers, but this time, China was determined to gets its rights!
The Soviet Union actually did deliver a great deal of stuff, including a number of complete MiG 21 aircraft both in assembled as well as in kit form. That further support was not forthcoming was due to the general breakdown of Chinese-Soviet relations, something that was mostly the fault of the Chinese leadership (In fact, the MiG-21 technology transfer was initiated by Khruchtchev as a gesture of good to bring relations back on track in the first place).
 

TheImmortal

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 11, 2017
3,743
-10
6,175
Country
United States
Location
United States
Underground the Shafaq project still exists! There are people here who lack intuition
:omghaha: This guy is a wack job, he is Iran’s “Baghdad Bob”.
If you had paid any attention to the relationship between the US and Russia in the last half decade or so, you would have noted that it is already characterised by an extreme hostility of the US to Russia. It is obviously ridiculous to expect that a denial for some arms contract would change something about this.
Again with the “this time it’s different bro” excuse. Not gonna waste any time on that.

Russia has more economic interests with the West (#1 natural gas supplier to Europe) than with Iran (a direct competitor in many areas).

So whatever differences they have don’t forget Putin meets US President and Israeli prime minister several times a year and only meets Iran what? Every couple years?

Russia and Israel have arms defense contracts (UAVs) and closely coordinate their responses. That is why Israel can strike 2000 times in Syria against Iran and Russia just shrugs their shoulders.
 

jauk

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Jul 8, 2016
38
0
51
Country
Anguilla
Location
Anguilla
This is all irrelevant. Iran will never acquire foreign combat craft enough to be battle relevant. Never. What amazes me is the back and forth on why Russia would sell or not. The real question is whether Iran will buy or not. It won't. Maybe a handful for TOT. MAYBE. Now go ahead and argue about an impossible acquisition for another 20 years.
 
Last edited:

Mr Iran Eye

FULL MEMBER
Feb 6, 2019
228
0
464
Country
Canada
Location
Canada
General TheImmortal is confused in his head and thinks that there are no other more secret projects for the Air Force. You have no intuition and it will be revealed when Iran decides to reveal their little secrets. Their new big engine and already built and tested for a long time :yes4:
 

EvilWesteners

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 17, 2020
91
0
327
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
United Kingdom
General TheImmortal is confused in his head and thinks that there are no other more secret projects for the Air Force. You have no intuition and it will be revealed when Iran decides to reveal their little secrets. Their new big engine and already built and tested for a long time :yes4:
With all respect, no insult intended, but I believe that you are deliberately attempting to CONFUSE yourself and not understand what TheImmortal is trying to say.

Please consider with an open mind, what is being said.

I speak with a few people in Iran IRIAF, and I assure you there are NO major projects for air force aircraft design and manufacturing other than comprehensive overhaul (quite impressive one in fact).

There are many MAPNA projects, yes of course, however no fighter jet engine, and please understand that even RR cannot do what you may associate with Iran's potential with so little budget and so little resources and so few supporting factories for aircraft design and manufacturing.

You may wish for Iran to have certain capacities, and it may hurt your feelings to know that they do not have such capacities, but the truth is the truth. People who love Iran, want to believe in Iran. I am just like you. However, we much evolve and "bare" the truth. Jews are very good at accepting the truth and uniting together to go change the truth into a new reality. That is what Iranians will eventually have to do.

In fact, we have in certain areas, and it is well demonstrated. Iran has done incredible projects building dams, tunnels, piping, etc.

Wishful thinking is not going to become reality. Reality is when we act and do. Struggle, of course, but eventually accomplish. Most often in baby steps. Let's allow the truth to strengthen us, not allow fiction to sooth our pain and keep us wishing and dreaming in a fictional world.

Here in U.S. $1,000 is not necessarily a huge amount of money, where I live, and the kind of job I have. But this money in Iran has helped 3 entire families and I am shocked how much this money has done for this 3 families in West of Tehran.

Iranian people over there are suffering. That is the truth.

Iranian government does not have the money to spend for R&D for an entire new aircraft for the IRIAF or any other military branch at the moment. Let's hope we can for the future.

However, an amazing thing about Iran and Iranians, we keep our money for the rainy day. Meaning, how do you think Iran has managed to withstand the last 3-4 years of the Trump administration?

Someone will one day write about that and people in the West will be surprised. How many other nations on earth could have withstood so much pressure?

Have a wonderful weekend my friend.
 

EvilWesteners

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 17, 2020
91
0
327
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
United Kingdom
:omghaha: This guy is a wack job, he is Iran’s “Baghdad Bob”.


Again with the “this time it’s different bro” excuse. Not gonna waste any time on that.

Russia has more economic interests with the West (#1 natural gas supplier to Europe) than with Iran (a direct competitor in many areas).

So whatever differences they have don’t forget Putin meets US President and Israeli prime minister several times a year and only meets Iran what? Every couple years?

Russia and Israel have arms defense contracts (UAVs) and closely coordinate their responses. That is why Israel can strike 2000 times in Syria against Iran and Russia just shrugs their shoulders.
Russia, China, India, and now even all the smaller countries in Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, etc.) and even Pakistan and to fair, even Iran, are all playing or participating in the BIG GAME.

Russian indeed does not have any consideration towards supporting Iran from an ideological sense. Russia has interests not friends.

I have worked with quite a few young Russian and old Russian engineers in my time. I learned from them that they see everything Internationally through the prism of WW2 Germany signing a no-aggression act with them, and then after kicking the British *** (Montgomery) out of Belgium, and thinking that they have defeated Brits/France they turned on Russia.

Russian is actually a very new country, they see themselves with a history of about 400ish years. They have used what happened with Germany as a means of how they think of everyone else. Always waiting to be stabbed in the back.

And they are playing a game of chess with Iran being a pawn. They have enormous fear of Iran on their borders, and will never see it any other way. They know that at least 50% of Iranians have little regard for Russian, whether to do with being the Iran propaganda or be it to do with Treaty of Golestan or Turkmenchy. Whatever it may be.

And it is somewhat true. Many Iranians are distrustful of Russia.

I am not confident that Russia would help Iran in any way regarding top level technology other than lower level things which they may think that Iran can achieve on its own anyways. They will for instance, I believe although I could be wrong, for a worthwhile contract help Iran manufacture either R35 or AL21F.

One thing that Russia loves (from their own engineering schools motto and their tough history) is countries that have guts and rise up and are "STRONG". They loved it when Iran shot down the RQ-4A - they had a new level of respect for Iran. Then Iran sat back down and did nothing in Syria.

Russian understand POWER PLAY and STRENGTH DISPLAY and its implications.

Did Iran lose the opportunity? Is that why 60% of Israelis say in a survey that they support their government to use nukes against Iran. as they see Iran weak and not responding to assassinations and covert operations?

May be.
 

EvilWesteners

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 17, 2020
91
0
327
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
United Kingdom
If you had paid any attention to the relationship between the US and Russia in the last half decade or so, you would have noted that it is already characterised by an extreme hostility of the US to Russia. It is obviously ridiculous to expect that a denial for some arms contract would change something about this.

As for Israel, in itself it is of course of no particular importance - it is only important because of the influence it has on the US via the Jewish-Zionist lobby. Note however that while US hostility to Russia is indeed driven in large part by Jewish animosity, this is not out of a specific Zionist motivation, but mainly because of a historical grudge regarding the supposed injustices Jews according to their victim mythology had to endure by Russia after its takeover of the Pale of Settlement.

Of course, the fact that it would be futile to try to mollify the the US by a denial of an arms contract with Iran does not preclude that the Russian government still would do it. Foreign policy is often not rational. But, as I said, we won't know until Iran actually tries to place an order.

Actually foreign policy is often very, very rational and non-emotional. That is what angers the people often.

Russia's number 1 priority right now is the Natural Gas pipeline to Germany, or as they say it, to go back to 2012-2013 when they had great relationship with Germany and they felt like 2 best friends. I was in Kata Beach Thailand in a very well known hotel for aviation engineers, mostly Russian customers, and some German, (80% to 10% respectively), and saw how Russians and Germans were talking about their perspective countries and their cooperation. They had such a great relationship and felt like best friends.

Then CIA got to Ukraine and the Crimea situation and the Germany just put their foot in their mouth and their relationship went sour.

Russia's number 1 goal is to go back to that, and see themselves again with 140B Euros in the bank.

Their second goal is to get rid of sanctions against them and put U.S. back on the wrong footing again, as U.S. was with the mortgage crisis of 2008-2010.

Russia will trade Iran's needs or wishes or anything to do with Iran, to get its way with her 2 priorities. Iran is a pawn in their negotiations with the U.S. That is all.

To be fair, so do China and India, to a lesser degree.
 

EvilWesteners

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 17, 2020
91
0
327
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
United Kingdom
The extent of Zionist control of Russia (and Putin and friends) is a subject that even Russians themselves do not agree upon its extent...But yes in any case Russia does what is good for Russia and selling game changing hardware to Iran is not good for Russia and not in the cards (your point)..unless the Price tag is way high (my guess > $50 billion) and that is far beyond what Iran is willing to put on the table (Amir's point).

I am actually happy that the end result is no purchase will happen sellers are not selling and buyer is not interested...All doors closed so lets roll up the sleeves and start the journey to a serious In-house aviation Industry ..It is doable (how do you eat and elephant!!...one spoon at a time!.:azn::azn:)
hehe, I have heard that expression in the West in so many different flavors.

A giant project needs to be broken up again and again to smaller pieces, until there are single manageable tasks and then it is suddenly doable - that is what I learned from the crazy project called NIMROD MRA4 (1993-2010 RIP). yaaaeeeks.

Well said Aryobarzan.
 

thesaint

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Dec 7, 2020
37
0
62
Country
Bangladesh
Location
United States
With all respect, no insult intended, but I believe that you are deliberately attempting to CONFUSE yourself and not understand what TheImmortal is trying to say.

Please consider with an open mind, what is being said.

I speak with a few people in Iran IRIAF, and I assure you there are NO major projects for air force aircraft design and manufacturing other than comprehensive overhaul (quite impressive one in fact).

There are many MAPNA projects, yes of course, however no fighter jet engine, and please understand that even RR cannot do what you may associate with Iran's potential with so little budget and so little resources and so few supporting factories for aircraft design and manufacturing.

You may wish for Iran to have certain capacities, and it may hurt your feelings to know that they do not have such capacities, but the truth is the truth. People who love Iran, want to believe in Iran. I am just like you. However, we much evolve and "bare" the truth. Jews are very good at accepting the truth and uniting together to go change the truth into a new reality. That is what Iranians will eventually have to do.

In fact, we have in certain areas, and it is well demonstrated. Iran has done incredible projects building dams, tunnels, piping, etc.

Wishful thinking is not going to become reality. Reality is when we act and do. Struggle, of course, but eventually accomplish. Most often in baby steps. Let's allow the truth to strengthen us, not allow fiction to sooth our pain and keep us wishing and dreaming in a fictional world.

Here in U.S. $1,000 is not necessarily a huge amount of money, where I live, and the kind of job I have. But this money in Iran has helped 3 entire families and I am shocked how much this money has done for this 3 families in West of Tehran.

Iranian people over there are suffering. That is the truth.

Iranian government does not have the money to spend for R&D for an entire new aircraft for the IRIAF or any other military branch at the moment. Let's hope we can for the future.

However, an amazing thing about Iran and Iranians, we keep our money for the rainy day. Meaning, how do you think Iran has managed to withstand the last 3-4 years of the Trump administration?

Someone will one day write about that and people in the West will be surprised. How many other nations on earth could have withstood so much pressure?

Have a wonderful weekend my friend.
We cannot trust you and your so called IRIAF friends at least not more than IRIAF Deputy commander:





 

Menschmaschine

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Oct 24, 2020
44
1
81
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
Again with the “this time it’s different bro” excuse. Not gonna waste any time on that.
This is really getting tedious. Again, for the third time: There is a very specific reason, namely the massively increased hostility of the US against Russia, that gives reason to expect that this time it might be different.

A valid counterargument could be that there was not much of a rational justification for the Russian pandering even before the US ratcheted its hostility massively up. But your point seems to be, quite on the contrary, that it was and still would be rational and beneficial for Russia to toe the US line - an obviously nonsensical assertion.

Actually foreign policy is often very, very rational and non-emotional. That is what angers the people often.

Russia's number 1 priority right now is the Natural Gas pipeline to Germany, or as they say it, to go back to 2012-2013 when they had great relationship with Germany and they felt like 2 best friends. I was in Kata Beach Thailand in a very well known hotel for aviation engineers, mostly Russian customers, and some German, (80% to 10% respectively), and saw how Russians and Germans were talking about their perspective countries and their cooperation. They had such a great relationship and felt like best friends.

Then CIA got to Ukraine and the Crimea situation and the Germany just put their foot in their mouth and their relationship went sour.

Russia's number 1 goal is to go back to that, and see themselves again with 140B Euros in the bank.

Their second goal is to get rid of sanctions against them and put U.S. back on the wrong footing again, as U.S. was with the mortgage crisis of 2008-2010.

Russia will trade Iran's needs or wishes or anything to do with Iran, to get its way with her 2 priorities. Iran is a pawn in their negotiations with the U.S. That is all.

To be fair, so do China and India, to a lesser degree.
I really wish that people would actually read what I write - I already answered those assertions. My point was precisely, that it would be completely futile and irrational for Russia to try to pander to the US. Let's assume the Russian government would deny a fighter sale to Iran. Would the US now pat the head of Russia: "Well done, now we are again BFF"

Of course not! Russia will gain absolutely nothing; there will be no US quid for a Russian quo, as there was none in all the previous instances.

As for the Ukraine situation, it is also an excellent example of irrational government foreign policy (If we define as rational to pursue policies that are beneficial to the countries they rule). The EU supported the US engineered coup and the sanctions against Russia even though this caused significant economic damage to EU countries.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 2, Members: 0, Guests: 2)


Top Bottom