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VEVAK

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Vevak doesn't know anything about real fighting. Ever since he listened to the American movie Top Gun with Tom Cruise, he sees American pilots and their planes as gods. He speculates but be sure that Iranian fighter jets are much better than he thinks. It is impossible that the Iranians have completely subscribed to the Shafaq project and we will see that in the future.

Iranian scientists and the military know what they really need. The ARIAF topic is really the worst topic here because a few speakers are slipping solid.

The F 35 hahahaah
Iran has 8 years of actual WAR experience with the F-5 so I really don't need no American stats or American movies to tell me what an ill equipped fighter the F-5 is!!!!

Iranian Air-to-Air Victories 1976-1981 (archive.org)

The stats above have both confirmed and claims

Now tell me what exactly is it that makes you assume that the F-5 or Kosar would have any chance against an IRST equipped fighter for within visible range engagements let alone have the capability to engage a 4.5Gen fighter let alone a 5th gen fighter from beyond visible range?
 

WudangMaster

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IRIAF has upgraded the avionics, fuselage, airframes, radars and weapons systems on all remaining 50+ F-14A Persian Cats. (Iran has retained over 66 airframes out of the 79 aircraft delivered prior to 1979). 30 airframes had been put in storage and upgraded after local spares and weapons systems production was ramped up.


Noteworthy that IRIAF F-14s can carry several types of air-to-air missiles.

In fact along with the M61A1 Vulan 20mm internal cannon, AIM-54 Phoenix radar-guided long-range air-to-air missile, AIM-7 Sparrow medium-range semi-active radar homing air-to-air missile and AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missile, Iranian Tomcats can be loaded also with the Fakour-90 air-to-air missile, the lethal Iranian made AIM-54 BVR air to-air-missile. The Fakour-90 is an Iranian air-to-air missile based on the AIM-54 Phoenix It is solely deployed on Iran's F-14 Tomcats.



Iranian fleet have reportedly received over 250 modifications and upgrades each, including the provision of new radars, cockpit displays, electronic warfare suites and other critical avionics.
60+ IRANIAN TOMCATS ideas | fighter jets, f14 tomcat, iran air474 × 252

The significance of a growing Iranian fleet of heavily upgraded F-14 fighters is not to be underestimated, and has considerable implications for the country’s aerial warfare capabilities. With most of the country’s Tomcats having seen well under a decade of service, some under five years, before a lack of parts placed them in storage, these airframes are essentially brand new and, with the supply of new parts, can be fielded in considerable numbers - with 40 F-14 fighters currently in active service, and some estimates putting this figure much higher. With the Fakour-90 inheriting and improving on the high precision of the AIM-54, and using a more effective fuel composite reportedly developed with Russian assistance, the missile has a range of little under 300km - slightly less than that of its Russian analogue the R-33. This gives Iranian Tomcats, with a steady supply of indigenously manufactured munitions, an engagement range approximately four times that of the American 75km range AIM-120B, the main long range air to air missile of most U.S. clients, and almost three times that of the more advanced AIM-120C. Indeed, in the event of a regional war Iranian Tomcats can safely shoot down fighters over Saudi Arabia without leaving Iranian airspace - and even target jets over Israel if crossing a little over the Iraqi border. The Fakour-90 is very likely to have inherited the Phoenix's hypersonic speed, making it both faster and longer ranged than the AIM-120 deployed by Saudi and Israeli F-15s.


I would also add the ability to launch archers and alamos one of which has had its range extended significantly.
Many years ago a former IRIAF F5 pilot on an older forum (Yaghoot) stated that $2billion was spent in the 90s to completely overhaul/upgrade the tomcat fleet including fixing the TF-30 stall issue at high AOA.
There was even news about a decade ago about digitalization of the communications and other control systems.
I wonder now if the AM standard is the culmination of the endeavour started in the 90s and over time saw more success as more domestic technology became available and the goals more ambitious. Also the article does not state how many have been brought to AM standard, assuming that the new paint scheme is applied to all with the completed upgrade, then there are only 2 photographed thus far. Also regarding the Fakour 90, I think all the tomcats with a functional AWG-9 radar can probably filed the missile, even if they not reached AM upgrade. Some statements made by officials hint at Fakour even being able to interface with Phantom radars and it would be terrific if they could adapt Fakour to their SU24s.
 

PeeD

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F-5E chances increase when in defensive posture. If it defends a city via it's nearby airbase and makes use of terrain, then it can be of some use against advanced enemy fighters coming from distant locations. Terrain masking, afterburner and intact IADS.

That's the context in which such technologically inferior assets can work.
 

RΛIDEN

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F-5E chances increase when in defensive posture. If it defends a city via it's nearby airbase and makes use of terrain, then it can be of some use against advanced enemy fighters coming from distant locations. Terrain masking, afterburner and intact IADS.

That's the context in which such technologically inferior assets can work.
Brother Peed, is that the 'one and only' context in which such technologically inferior assets like F-5E can work?
 

foxhoundbis

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Now tell me what exactly is it that makes you assume that the F-5 or Kosar would have any chance against an IRST equipped fighter for within visible range engagements let alone have the capability to engage a 4.5Gen fighter let alone a 5th gen fighter from beyond visible range?
At this stage, if Iran sends its air fleet against the US Air Force, it will be not less than suicide.
At first, I've already mentioned in a previous post, to be effective an air raid must be done above the target, at low altitude, slow speed, with none, or at the most, a very weak resistance from the soil. If these conditions are met, then an air raid could be successful. Tell me where, and when these conditions could be met other than Hollywood's studios? Of course against the Taliban or some other defenseless militias, it could be conceivable, but they are no-state actors. Here we are talking about Iran, an industrial power.

If you go out of the tight pathway of western propaganda, you will realize -except the Israeli surprise attack between June 5 to june 11 1967, against middle-aged countries- the results of most of US air wars are at the best, mitigate, in fact, most of the time, contrary what their propaganda asserts a total failure.
Nowadays, to avoid the humiliation of a US fighter downed, and its pilots jailed, exhibited in front of the cameras. US Air Force equipped its fighter bombers with air-ground missiles. They send waves after waves of fighter bombers to launch their missiles, without significant results. In fact, the aircraft is reduced to be a micro B-52, carrier missiles, but just called F-15 E, F-35, etc...with limited results at the best cases. And to intercept these aggressors, the attacked country scrambled its fighters to launch their BVR missiles with none result, at their turn the F-35, F-15, F-18, Typhoon, Rafale, and the F-22 launched their BVR missiles AIM 120 too with none results.
With the modern anti-air defense US, and western fighters cannot dare to approach them. See the result of the US air campaign above Serbia. Nowadays, all the West with Israel are attacking Syria, however, they don't dare to approach Syrian's skies.

At this game isn't more cost-effective to send directly ballistic missiles from the ground?
Now you understood the choice of Iran because nowadays the air force as a tool of war is in a deep stalemate. Like the cavalry during the first world war. The cavalry and infantry were useless against cannons and machine guns. Thus, it was decided to dig trenches, after trenches.

I am nearly sure Iran is doing all its possible to build powerful anti-aircraft guns like a railgun, or magnetized plasma anti-aircraft artilleries.
Then what will be the future of the Air Force?
 

TheImmortal

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Any chance Iran will get Su-57?

Barring a massive jump in Russian-Iranian relations, there is little chance Russia would export its 5th gen fighter to a pivotal Middle East country like Iran and upset Israel and USA.

Banana countries? Sure

Turkey? Possibly in order to poke NATO in the eyes

Iran? Unlikely, no geopolitical benefit for Russia and a lot of headaches.

That being said, if Iran can acquire 54-75 SU-57 it should absolutely do it as they can replace the F-14’s for the next 30 years.
 

PeeD

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Brother Peed, is that the 'one and only' context in which such technologically inferior assets like F-5E can work?
In the context of fighting air to air battles against 5th generation fighters. Of course other scenarios are still possible.
 

GWXP

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Barring a massive jump in Russian-Iranian relations, there is little chance Russia would export its 5th gen fighter to a pivotal Middle East country like Iran and upset Israel and USA.

Banana countries? Sure

Turkey? Possibly in order to poke NATO in the eyes

Iran? Unlikely, no geopolitical benefit for Russia and a lot of headaches.

That being said, if Iran can acquire 54-75 SU-57 it should absolutely do it as they can replace the F-14’s for the next 30 years.
Israel is nobody in Russia's eyes---a tiny cockroach with population of 6mln Jews--why Russia should care what tiny Israel thinks?

USA can impose sanctions against Russia if it decides to sell Su-57, but Russia is already under US sanctions and now there are news that Biden plans to cut off Russia from SWIFT

If Israeli and USA sanctions were of big concern for Moscow, Russia would have never deployed air power in Syria----and yet Russia openly went against the West and provided military support to Assad

Russia's major enemy is Turkey, because it has plans to expand into Caucasus, Black Sea region and Eastern Europe.

Geopolitically, Iran serves two purposes for Russia:
1) counterweight to Turkey
2) troublemaker for USA in the Middle East


Strong and assertive Iran is good for Russia as it keeps US attention and military resources busy in the Middle East and away from Ukraine

So selling Su-57 to Iran and disturb balance of power in the Persian Gulf, thus creating more troubles for US in the ME is a good idea from Russian point of view
 
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Darius77

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Israel is nobody in Russia's eyes---a tiny cockroach with population of 6mln Jews--why Russia should care what tiny Israel thinks?

USA can impose sanctions against Russia if it decides to sell Su-57, but Russia is already under US sanctions and now there are news that Biden plans to cut off Russia from SWIFT

If Israeli and USA sanctions were of big concern for Moscow, Russia would have never deployed air power in Syria----and yet Russia openly went against the West and provided military support to Assad

Russia's major enemy is Turkey, because it has plans to expand into Caucasus, Black Sea region and Eastern Europe.

Geopolitically, Iran serves two purposes for Russia:
1) counterweight to Turkey
2) troublemaker for USA in the Middle East


Strong and assertive Iran is good for Russia as it keeps US attention and military resources busy in the Middle East and away from Ukraine

So selling Su-57 to Iran and disturb balance of power in the Persian Gulf, thus creating more troubles for US in the ME is a good idea from Russian point of view
Touche, you have a good grasp of the regional geo-political situation. So-called Israel is a nuisance like a flea and really poses no threat to either Russia or Iran. It just goads the stupid Americans into destructive conflicts with its enemies. The US has suffered immensely due the Zionist fanned wars that have bankrupted it over the past 20 years and accelerated China's rapid rise to the prime economy. Imagine what the $15 trillion lost on wars from Afghanistan to Syria would have done for the benefit of the hapless average American.

Iran is a large powerful state with huge strategic mass and indeed serves as a safe buffer for Russia in the southern tiers of Asia Minor. It is in Russia's strategic and security interest to have a stable and powerful Iranian ally. Historically, Russia and Turkey are natural enemies, dating back to Peter the Great's expansionism towards the Black Sea, Crimea and Caucasus , largely at Turkish expense. It would make sense for Russia to arm Iran to the maximum as it bogs down the US and also provides a string counter-weight to Turkey. Iran's geo-strategic influence is also on the rise from Afghanistan to Lebanon and the growing power of Shia Crescent, which also benefits Russia as events in Syria have amply demonstrated. The world is going through a rapid powershift and both Russian and Iranian alliance is a natural given.
 
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IranDefence

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Israel is nobody in Russia's eyes---a tiny cockroach with population of 6mln Jews--why Russia should care what tiny Israel thinks?

USA can impose sanctions against Russia if it decides to sell Su-57, but Russia is already under US sanctions and now there are news that Biden plans to cut off Russia from SWIFT

If Israeli and USA sanctions were of big concern for Moscow, Russia would have never deployed air power in Syria----and yet Russia openly went against the West and provided military support to Assad

Russia's major enemy is Turkey, because it has plans to expand into Caucasus, Black Sea region and Eastern Europe.

Geopolitically, Iran serves two purposes for Russia:
1) counterweight to Turkey
2) troublemaker for USA in the Middle East


Strong and assertive Iran is good for Russia as it keeps US attention and military resources busy in the Middle East and away from Ukraine

So selling Su-57 to Iran and disturb balance of power in the Persian Gulf, thus creating more troubles for US in the ME is a good idea from Russian point of view
Read more about powerful and rich Russian Jews !
 

Sineva

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Any chance Iran will get Su-57?

In a word.....NO!
Think how many ballistic,quasi-ballistic and cruise missiles iran could build for the cost of even a single su-57.
The old air power heavy model makes no sense for iran from either a military or economic perspective.For iran manned air power can only ever play a back up role in its defence strategy,so it would make no sense to buy something like a fleet of 5th gen aircraft,that in addition to being enormously expensive and extremely demanding in terms of [unreliable] foreign supplied logistics,is basically built just for one role ie a2a combat.
Iran ISNT saudi arabia,so its not going to squander vast sums buying weapons that it doesnt need and likely couldnt even use anyway.
 

VEVAK

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F-5E chances increase when in defensive posture. If it defends a city via it's nearby airbase and makes use of terrain, then it can be of some use against advanced enemy fighters coming from distant locations. Terrain masking, afterburner and intact IADS.

That's the context in which such technologically inferior assets can work.
No doubt flying in your own Airspace increases you chances of survival that fact remains true for any fighter on the planet.

However, in a proper cost benefit analysis you can't simply close your eyes to Iranian F-5 stats in areal engagements against the Iraqi Air Force.


At Iran's level of technology, fixating on improving and producing the F-5 for use as anything other than a trainer as appose to even the F-4 does not make sense to me even at triple the cost it still makes no sense. With a modified F-4 your at least getting the payload capacity, range and air refueling capability to conduct strikes against various types of targets beyond your boarders.

And it's about time Iran moved away from this fixation with the F-5 and the OWJ engines....
 

VEVAK

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In a word.....NO!
Think how many ballistic,quasi-ballistic and cruise missiles iran could build for the cost of even a single su-57.
The old air power heavy model makes no sense for iran from either a military or economic perspective.For iran manned air power can only ever play a back up role in its defence strategy,so it would make no sense to buy something like a fleet of 5th gen aircraft,that in addition to being enormously expensive and extremely demanding in terms of [unreliable] foreign supplied logistics,is basically built just for one role ie a2a combat.
Iran ISNT saudi arabia,so its not going to squander vast sums buying weapons that it doesnt need and likely couldnt even use anyway.
I would absolutely agree to the purchase of this beautiful Russian Aircraft if the Russians agree to a +80% technology transfer and access to weapons systems to allow for Iranian produced weapons to be placed on it.

That would be a worth while investment. However without it neither this nor any other aircraft on the planet would be a worth while investment.

Spending vast amounts of money on your defense industry to develop and produce weapons isn't specifically about weapons. So investing in a 5th gen fighter will only be a worth while investment if it brings about technological growth.

That said, fixating on missiles alone will not only restrict Iran's defense industry and military but it restricts Iran's technological growth and makes us dependent on a wide range of industries.
 

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