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VEVAK

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I agree that the American narrative regarding cannibalising is to paint Iran as weak and incompotent. Which is complete horse sh!t. Even though Iran has the capability to produce all the parts, especially the ones that require machining operations, it is still much more preferred to get them from black market. Simply because it is such a damn hassle to produce everything internally. The issue is not that the parts or components are too advanced for Iran. The issue is that in order to get the overall CoG correct, the size and the weight distribution of each part needs to match 100% the original part. Basically, even if Iran could for example produce a much more effective hydraulic actuator for lets say the aileron, if that actuator does not match the weight distribution of the original part exactly, then it will mess up the CoG. And it's not even advanced components that are a hassle. Even simple tubes can become a nightmare because not matching weight distribution.

Personally I have always admired the F14, but it is a completely useless design to pursue today. Even Sweden's gripen can perform the same job today and much more cost effectively.
Furthermore, I think the way to go is UCAVs. Manned aircraft is a thing of the past. They are expensive and quite possibly much less capable even with current AI-tech level.
Without an advanced AI system that you can trust Fighter Jets especially Air Superiority Fighters will remain a requirement for the next 2 decades at least.

UCAV's may be a great tool to go up against weaker enemies but just imagine if we were able to hack American stealth UAV's our UAV's aren't really going to have a chance against a country capable of building UCAV's with AI systems that can take on human pilots in dogfights.

And whether we produced manned fighter jets or not at the end of the day producing larger manned Aircrafts are a requirement and I don't think there is a single country on the planet that can produce large reliable passenger jet with all its parts and components but at the same time can't produce its own fighter....

As for the F-14 fact is if we had chosen to reverse engineer the F-14 from the start today we could have used many of the same equipment and infrastructure to produce our own 4.5 gen fighter...

If they had chosen the F-14 to reverse engineer 2 decades ago they would have been forced to invest in Ti composites they would have been forced to invest in large vacuum ovens and large oven presses.....
In terms of engine they would have been forced to invest in an engine that could have been improved on and upgraded to be used on domestic design fighter...

As for weight distribution and center of gravity so long as your cutting down on weight it could easily be adjusted and countered however if you think you can take a Ti part and replace it with a stainless steel and call it better then of course your going to have CoG problems...

The Su-22's the IRGC overhauled where nothing but a shell and somehow they managed to refurbish them and upgrade them and equip them with PGM's meaning if Iran had chosen the F-14 to reverse engineer today the infrastructure needed to produce a more capable Iranian designed airframe instead would have been cheaper and faster

And investing in a gharashmeesh of design like the Q-313 is most definitely not the way to resolve the issue! It is absurd to me for a country who came up with designs like the Sofreh Mahi to go ahead and chose that ridicules design to invest in. To me whomever is at fault for pushing that program should be investigated on suspension of treason... And I don't blame regular Iranian pat's that love it because it looks cool but ppl that know better should know better and call out a dumb donkey of a design for what It truly is!
 

Shawnee

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چقدر راحت اتهام خیانت میزنیم برای طراحی قاهر
ژاپن طراحی نسل پنج رو از ۲۰۰۵ شروع کرده و هنوز تاکسی نکرده
اروپا پهپاد نورون رو سالها قبل شاهد شروع کرد و الان از ما عقبه

با این بودجه بهتر اروپا و ژاپن عمل کردن
انصاف داشته باشیم

ما با همین اف پنج از خاک حقارت بلند میشیم
قاهر چیه
یه روزی ما سر همین پهپاد کرار توی این فروم مسخره میشدیم
روزی که کرار رونمایی شد خیلی ها میخواستن پرواز کنن از خوشحالی چون هفت سال منتظر رونمایی پهپاد کرار بودن

معادل ترکی کرار سیمسک هست و الان هشت ساله خبر درستی ازش نشنیدیم
خواهیم دید​
 
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Sina-1

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Without an advanced AI system that you can trust Fighter Jets especially Air Superiority Fighters will remain a requirement for the next 2 decades at least.
We have that today! Bavar 373 acquisition radar and Iranian OTH radars together with our current UCAVs are proof of very advanced AI object identification capability.

UCAV's may be a great tool to go up against weaker enemies but just imagine if we were able to hack American stealth UAV's our UAV's aren't really going to have a chance against a country capable of building UCAV's with AI systems that can take on human pilots in dogfights.
You are thinking in conventional terms. Future UCAVs will not approach manned aircraft like other manned aircraft would. There will be a much intricate strategy where both air based and ground based assets will completely overrun the manned aircraft. Just think of this. One JSF cost 500 million $. How many advanced and mission dedicated and different unmanned systems would you be able to build with that money. Even if one unmanned asset would cost 1 M$, which I think is too high, that would still make 500 assets versus 1.


And whether we produced manned fighter jets or not at the end of the day producing larger manned Aircrafts are a requirement and I don't think there is a single country on the planet that can produce large reliable passenger jet with all its parts and components but at the same time can't produce its own fighter....
Agree that we need to build our own passenger jets but that's it IMO.

As for the F-14 fact is if we had chosen to reverse engineer the F-14 from the start today we could have used many of the same equipment and infrastructure to produce our own 4.5 gen fighter...
I'm glad we didn't. A much more simple canard fighter would have solved the same requirements. Hopefully there will be no manned aircraft whatsoever.


As for weight distribution and center of gravity so long as your cutting down on weight it could easily be adjusted and countered however if you think you can take a Ti part and replace it with a stainless steel and call it better then of course your going to have CoG problems...
Nothing easy about it. In worse case they need to put counter weights all over the aircraft and that is a maintenance nightmare since then they have individual schematics for each and every aircraft in the inventory.

And investing in a gharashmeesh of design like the Q-313 is most definitely not the way to resolve the issue! It is absurd to me for a country who came up with designs like the Sofreh Mahi to go ahead and chose that ridicules design to invest in. To me whomever is at fault for pushing that program should be investigated on suspension of treason... And I don't blame regular Iranian pat's that love it because it looks cool but ppl that know better should know better and call out a dumb donkey of a design for what It truly is!
I would say I know basics when it comes to aircraft. Both in terms of design and in terms actually flying them. So in no way I would call myself an expert. However I have basic understanding. As an engineer however, there is nothing in the current configuration of the Q-313 that points to it being such a trash design that you are suggesting. It is absolutely an unconventional design. And those are inherently much more high risk. That is why they are called unconventional.
On the other hand, Iran can in no way play catch up with is advisories. We will lose in every scenario where we try to play catch up. We do not have the manpower or the resources. The only way is to go unconventional.

When the world laughed at us and said no way BM can be used to pinpoint accuracy. We went for the unconventional and totally proved everyone wrong.
Now we have forced the rest of the world to start investing in this sector as well, now that it is proven and obvious. Accurate BM is not unconventional anymore.

I am not saying that Q-313 will be our next disruptive weapon. But I am sure that Iran will make an air superiority aircraft and I am 100% sure that it will be very unconventional.
 

Philosopher

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Unmanned combat platforms will not significantly replace manned systems anytime soon, but what they will do is reduce the burden on manned platforms in many ways. For one, once you have UCAVs that have meet the mission requirement, they will be used over manned jets. For example today when performing attacks against terrorists, instead of sending manned fighter jets and risking pilots, you send a UAV and do the same job but much cheaper. Once UCAVs reach the required level, they will also replace fighters in air to air roles to varying degrees. In the short to mid future, you will see manned fighter jets, surrounded by unmanned wingmans. In the long term, you may see unmanned systems replacing manned systems to a major degree, but you will never see the removal of manned systems altogether.

Another way the UCAVs will diminish the burden is they will reduce the number of manned fighter jets we have to produce. Where back in the old days you had to produce lets say 300 fighter jets, today you may have to produce only 100 and fill the gap with cheaper and easier to mass produce UCAVs. Obviously this depends on when the UCAVs will meet the necessary capabilities. The good news for us is that Iran has a very robust UAV industry and I am sure once its manned fighter jet is ready that it will have necessary UAVs to link to it.

Regarding Qaher, this has already been discussed many times. Form follows functions in engineering and this combined with the words that initially came from Iran, it was clear this platforms was a one that was suppose to be a low flying jet perhaps to be used in the Persian Gulf. I even recall a statement coming from Iran that stated the jet was going to be used to deal with helicopter in the Persian Gulf. Clearly this was not meant as an air superiority fighter in the same category as the F-22/F-35. Qaher is a very interesting design and an important learning curve for Iran but I never saw it as a major project for us to boost our airforce. It was an unique design for unconventional roles. Iran's air superiority stealth fighter jet is coming, it's just a matter of time.
 
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Sina-1

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Unmanned combat platforms will not significantly replace manned systems anytime soon, but what they will do is reduce the burden on manned platforms in many ways. For one, once you have UCAVs that have meet the mission requirement, they will be used over manned jets. For example today when performing attacks against terrorists, instead of sending manned fighter jets and risking pilots, you send a UAV and do the same job but much cheaper. Once UCAVs reach the required level, they will also replace fighters in air to air roles to varying degrees. In the short to mid future, you will see manned fighter jets, surrounded by unmanned wingmans. In the long term, you may see unmanned systems replacing manned systems to a major degree, but you will never see the removal of manned systems altogether.

Another way the UCAVs will diminish the burden is they will reduce the number of manned fighter jets we have to produce. Where back in the old days you had to produce lets say 300 fighter jets, today you may have to produce only 100 and fill the gap with cheaper and easier to mass produce UCAVs. Obviously this depends on when the UCAVs will meet the necessary capabilities. The good news for us is that Iran has a very robust UAV industry and I am sure once its manned fighter jet is ready that it will have necessary UAVs to link to it.
You are depicting the western strategy. You are correct in that assessment because that is exactly what we are witnessing. However Iran cannot afford to take the same path. We need to take risks and leapfrog them.
 

Shawnee

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The main bottleneck, turbofan, is resolving gradually. When we started we were back compared to Tejas and Kaveri. Now we are ahead. We used to look at Kaveri and Tejas and wish we were there just 10 years ago.

China has spent 100 billion in turbofan industry and does not use a single domestic turbofan yet.

I am happy with these results. Turbofan technology does not come overnight.
 

Philosopher

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You are depicting the western strategy. You are correct in that assessment because that is exactly what we are witnessing. However Iran cannot effort to go that path. We need to take risks and leapfrog them.
UCAVs play a very important roles for Iran thus assuming the integration of them as part of its airforce is a natural conclusion and is also actually confirmed by the head of the IRIAF. I do not see what the viable alternative is. Compared to the notion of having to mass produce manned systems, the situation I outlined in my initial post is more cost effective for Iran.
 

Shawnee

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UCAVs play a very important roles for Iran thus assuming the integration of them as part of its airforce is a natural conclusion and is also actually confirmed by the head of the IRIAF. I do not see what the viable alternative is. Compared to the notion of having to mass produce manned systems, the situation I outlined in my initial post is more cost effective for Iran.
Lets not forget the AZ-AR was again. The country with far inferior Airforce won the war. AZ won with UCAV.

Myth busted again:
“No country has won a war without superior airforce” Another wrong example.


Air Force is not air power. UCAV will give you air power.

We absolutely need a better Air Force and we will gradually advance when our turbofan matures.

Yet, we already have a good air power.
 
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Philosopher

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Lets not forget the AZ-AR was again. The country with far inferior Airforce won the war. AZ won with UCAV.

Myth busted again:
“No country has won a war without superior airforce” Another wrong example.


Air Force is not air power. UCAV will give you air power.

We absolutely need a better Air Force and we will gradually advance when our turbofan matured.

Yet, we already have a good air power.
Agreed, you can also see just how Iranian allied groups such as Houthis are using their limited UAV capabilities in such an impressive way, and these are lower end of the Iranian technology being provided to them. We need to ask ourselves why airforce is needed. Iran's air-defence is already capable enough to deal with many aerial threats and our missiles capability can paralyse any nations within the 2500km range, what a capable airforce will do is greatly reduce the burden on our defence (air defence) and offence (missiles). More-so on our air-defence because our missiles today are complemented by UAVs. The obtaining of a capable airforce for Iran is absolutely inevitable and in my opinion, this will be a mixture of manned and unmanned planes. But Iran always surprises us with its ingenuity, so lets see what they will do.
 

Sina-1

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UCAVs play a very important roles for Iran thus assuming the integration of them as part of its airforce is a natural conclusion and is also actually confirmed by the head of the IRIAF. I do not see what the viable alternative is. Compared to the notion of having to mass produce manned systems, the situation I outlined in my initial post is more cost effective for Iran.
I fail to see how producing both conventional manned aircraft + unnamed vehicles is more cost effective than only producing unmanned systems!
 

Philosopher

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I fail to see how producing both conventional manned aircraft + unnamed vehicles is more cost effective than only producing unmanned systems!
Because unmanned systems are simply not at the level to significantly replace manned systems when it comes to air to air roles. Not today and not for a while. Have a read of the below article regarding this topic:

No, Elon Musk: The Era Of The Manned Fighter Jet Won’t Be Over Anytime Soon
This is why this is being taken at the steps of first integrating these UCAVs with the manned systems and then improve on from there.
 

TheImmortal

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I fail to see how producing both conventional manned aircraft + unnamed vehicles is more cost effective than only producing unmanned systems!
do you really want to base your entire Air Force on a platform that is useless if the communication link between operator and the drone is hacked/severed/manipulated?

And before you mention some Hollywood BS about a fully autonomous drone that can do target acquisition and execution by itself....that is decades away.

US would love for Iran to move to unmanned systems only. You basically might as well tattoo “massive exploitable weak link” to your a$$.
 

aryobarzan

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I also have my doubts about relaying too much on any drone linked to a ground control being used in an air to air combat..US has some of the most sophisticated jamming systems next to Russia.
Drones are great when your enemy is not sophisticated...any combat with US in the air will not end well for iran..recognize your weak points and hit the enemy where they hurt the most...US weak point with Iran is their staging grounds and supply lines...hit them hard and destroy as much as you can in sea and ground before they get airborne....
 

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