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sahureka2

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[QUOTE = "sanel1412, post: 12756980, membro: 187617"]
I Mig 29 sono assemblati in Corea del Nord per decenni, ma non l'hanno mai prodotto da solo, dubito che lo producano ora, in passato molte persone sbagliavano questa catena di montaggio e affermavano che N. Norea produceva mig 29. Potrei sbagliarmi, ma probabilmente no
[/ CITAZIONE]

https://thediplomat.com/2018/11/is-north-koreas-mig-29-fleet-growing/

.......... With North Korea retaining the facilities needed to produce MiG-29 fighters of its own with a few minor inputs of Russian components, it remains likely that Moscow has continued to supply these inputs to keep production lines active. Without providing the country with a new class of fighter entirely, Russia can quietly assist its neighbor to expand its Fulcrum fleet and thus strengthen its aerial warfare capabilities. With no one entirely sure how many Fulcrums the North Korean Air Force actually fields, and many of the country’s airbases located underground, it is extremely difficult to prove any violations on Moscow’s part. Key components crossing the border are far easier to disguise than fighter airframes, and can therefore continue to be supplied inconspicuously without providing evidence to the United States to substantiate its accusations that Russia has violated the U.S. drafted UN sanctions regime against North Korea.

Pyongyang is well within its budgetary limits to afford modernization and a continuous manufacture of the MiG-29 — a lighter aircraft that comes at a fraction of the cost of the heavier Su-35.
 
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foxhoundbis

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@sahureka2

I think Iranians have the know-how to build any jet engines including the RD-33, -as AL-31F, and even the F110-GE-400- for a while. This is what I assert, and it is not an only assertion, but a strong certitude.
However, due to the blockade initiated by the US -Israeli lobby- in fact, the entire west, western bloc, and ....Russia and China -they are the worst-. Iran lacked the infrastructure to do so.
Concretely Iran lacked the tools-machineries necessary to develop a fair jet engine.
There exist two solutions, either to buy them in the black market, but they are full of malware, malfunctioning hardware, malicious traps, furthermore very expensive, or to build them all from scratch.

To build this infra from scratch as you know is not an easy task, it takes decades even for a country without embargo, I leave you to imagine what about for a country like Iran.
Your government decided to build them all from scratch, this project was initiated for a long time ago, it asks money, and technicians, scientists, engineers, etc... enough qualified personnel.
But... a few years ago the NK's ally had done prowess, it means it has either build necessary tool-machineries or buy them. Recently they succeeded to replicate the RD-33.
Regarding Iran a few years ago -around 2015- you succeeded by replicating the F-5F dubbed Kowsar, notwithstanding the F-5F is an old fighter, however in order run 1 km, U must run at least 100 meters, this first 100 meters are the hardest difficult task.
Now you are producing the Kowsar, Jahesh-700, etc ... nothing can deter Iran to build its own heavy fighter -Mig-29 is not considered as a heavy fighter, your government wants a heavy fighter-.
As you can see Jewish lobby in the US failed to extend the embargo concerning weapons, because Westerners realized it is too late, Iranians have the know how and infra, thus with or without this blockade they will have sophisticated heavy fighters sooner or later.
 

TheImmortal

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Me think Iran holds an ace back and already has at least a function iranian prototype of an powerful fighterjet turbofan engine. So me dont think that Iran will buy lots of fighterjets from Russia or China. Maybe 24-30 to overcome the time till the own fighterjet with own turbofan take off.
Even if Iran started tomm on a fully develop fighter it would take 10+ years to reach 100 fighters given the lack of supporting infrastructure.

Iran needs to retire or semi retire ALOT of birds and make its Air Force more homogenous. Right now it has US, Russian, Chinese, Iranian, French warplanes. It’s a logistical nightmare.

I think the “deal” that Iran signed is an old deal and Iran is that mysterious unnamed buyer that was seen on the books for 75+ aircraft.
 

foxhoundbis

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https://thediplomat.com/2018/11/is-north-koreas-mig-29-fleet-growing/

Pyongyang is well within its budgetary limits to afford modernization and a continuous manufacture of the MiG-29 — a lighter aircraft that comes at a fraction of the cost of the heavier Su-35.
I know this article and the author.
I am here because it is nearly impossible to evaluate in an accurate way the real number of the NK's Mig-29. Even Russia, or China ignore the quantity of NK's MIg-29.
It is no uses to expect any information coming from Pyongyang, even less from western media like the Diplomat. But we can evaluate, from several situations. The NK's allies situations.
North Korea is among the very rare nations in the world able to build SLBM. Space centers, Satelittes, complex electronic hardware, hypersonic hardwares etc... The Iranian ally is able to build helicopters, aircraft fighters.
In these conditions, we can assert this country is able to build or replicate jet fighters like Mig-29 that is nearly 40 years old. The threshold was reached a few years ago.


... a fully develop fighter it would take 10+ years to reach 100 fighters given the lack of supporting infrastructure....
No one can know exactly.
But this image is very hopeful sign for Iranians
 

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TheImmortal

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I know this article and the author.
I am here because it is nearly impossible to evaluate in an accurate way the real number of the NK's Mig-29. Even Russia, or China ignore the quantity of NK's MIg-29.
It is no uses to expect any information coming from Pyongyang, even less from western media like the Diplomat. But we can evaluate, from several situations. The NK's allies situations.
North Korea is among the very rare nations in the world able to build SLBM. Space centers, Satelittes, complex electronic hardware, hypersonic hardwares etc... The Iranian ally is able to build helicopters, aircraft fighters.
In these conditions, we can assert this country is able to build or replicate jet fighters like Mig-29 that is nearly 40 years old. The threshold was reached a few years ago.



No one can know exactly.
But this image is very hopeful sign for Iranians
The amount of MiG-29 NK has is overblown. People forget this country is severely cash strapped and resource strapped to the point they negotiated for food and gasoline in the past.

North Korea main industry is what exactly? Timber?

Even assuming NK diverts 95% of its cash and resources to military, the amount that would trickle to the airforce would be small as there are other areas of the military that suck up most of the funding.

Mig-29 Cost $$$ even NK doesn’t pay its engineers or workers.
 

Surenas

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With web traslate:
Defense Minister in talks with Al Jazeera: We have signed an important agreement with Russia for the development of our country's air force

Finally announced, congratulations to all

And:

https://shahraranews.ir/fa/news/47298/وزیر-دفاع-هشدار-داد-هرگونه-تهدید-اسرائیلی-از-منطقه-با-پاسخ-روشن-و-مستقیم-مواجه-خواهد-شد

Web traslate:
"In an interview with Al-Jazeera, Amir Hatami, the Minister of Defense of the Islamic Republic of Iran, stressed that the end of the arms embargo against Iran is an opportunity for us to import the weapons we need and export our weapons to others.

"We have military agreements with Russia and China for the next phase of the arms embargo," he said. We have important agreements with Russia with the aim of developing air weapons."
According to a better translation, what Hatami refers to is an agreement with China and Russia regarding air defence systems; not the air force.

 

Iskander

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No, He was Talking about air force and the friend of Kian Sharifi is wrong
This is the exact translation
"وبخصوص رفع حظر التسلح عن إيران، قال "لدينا توافقات مهمة مع روسيا والصين بهدف تطوير أنظمتنا الخاصة بسلاح الجو لمرحلة ما بعد انتهاء حظر التسلح
Regarding the lifting of the arms embargo on Iran, he said, "We have important agreements with Russia and China with the aim of developing our air force systems for for the post-embargo phase. "
 

foxhoundbis

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North Korea main industry is what exactly? Timber?

Mig-29 Cost $$$ even NK doesn’t pay its engineers or workers.
Sorry, U are not only uninformed about NK. but you don't want to. I cannot discuss with you, I don"t have time to lose.

Pyongyang is well within .... the heavier Su-35.
I heard recently that North Korea asked Russia to buy only one SU-35. If this information is true, and it seems because officials in Moscow somehow confirmed, It means NK is enough confident to replicate even the SU-35, it seems that NK does have the know-how to do so.
In the next step, U will see North Korea's Railguns, and we are not far to see hypersonics vehicles like WZ-8 drones. And when I see the Iranians progress at the same time regarding jet engine technologies, it is something that could be reasonable.
 

EvilWesteners

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Sorry, U are not only uninformed about NK. but you don't want to. I cannot discuss with you, I don"t have time to lose.



I heard recently that North Korea asked Russia to buy only one SU-35. If this information is true, and it seems because officials in Moscow somehow confirmed, It means NK is enough confident to replicate even the SU-35, it seems that NK does have the know-how to do so.
In the next step, U will see North Korea's Railguns, and we are not far to see hypersonics vehicles like WZ-8 drones. And when I see the Iranians progress at the same time regarding jet engine technologies, it is something that could be reasonable.
From what I can see (having worked with S Korea a few times), it is the tenacity of NK that has kept the West awe struck. NK takes on challenges that makes most in the West crap enough to fill up a 5 gallon container. They have a lot of guts. While others are scared of failure, NK just tries to no end. Also, they don't have a constant U turn, changing their mind every few months on a project e.g. remember NIMROD?

Good luck to N Korea and her people. They don't want to be the SLAVES of the West. What was it that Trump said about South Korea recently? Oh that's right, he said, and I quote, "South Korea is alive because we allow it".
 

SalarHaqq

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I think the “deal” that Iran signed is an old deal and Iran is that mysterious unnamed buyer that was seen on the books for 75+ aircraft.
67 units I believe it was... of Su-35's. But now we are hearing rumors of a deal for 100 Su-30SM with local production (which had already been reported repeatdely in the past, with some versions claiming 200+ Su-30 fighters). Don't know which would be better (though I have an uninformed preference for 67 Su-35 over 100 Su-30SM).


we need at least 150 long range fighter such as Su-30 or F-15 and 150 lighter fighter like JF-17 Block III or J-10
C which we should be able to produce these locally ...

For me , 100 Su-30 with 150-200 J10C is ideal ...

our main focus should be building long range weapon for fighter , such as A2G , A2A , A2C missiles , long range heavy rockets and Electronic warfare components ...

in minimum , we need something like 150 JF-17 and 80 J-10C
Pretty close to my idea of an ideal procurement operation, actually. I would say go for those 67 Su-35's to assist the F-14's in fulfilling the heavy interceptor role (bringing the total number of such fighters to around 120), in addition to 100-120 J-10C as medium-weight multirole fighters (more would be too expensive).

With this, Iran could get rid of its Mig-29's (by donating them to Syria for instance), F-4's, Mirage F-1's, as well as various older Mig- and Su-/Su-clones either purchased from China or received from Iraq in 1991 (except for the IRGCAF's recently overhauled and upgraded Su-22's, I guess). Quite the alleviation and streamlining in logistical terms, and savings on the maintenance of older aircraft.

The F-5's could be replaced by domestically built Kowsars, to be used as trainers and light fighters with modernized radars, avionics and armaments (anywhere between 40-50 to 100+). The Su-24's are still potentially useful for low altitude approach, long range interdiction strikes including against aircraft carriers - if their numbers could be brought to some 80, given their reasonable price tag, this might be a sound move.

Of course some 3 to 5 heavier AWACS aircraft as well as up to 6 or 7 locally-produced light AEW-variant Iran-140's would be helpful as well. A few early warning helicopters for the navy would be another option, these could also be designed locally. This is on top of reconnaissance and early warning drones (both radar and EO equipped), Iran-140 maritime patrol and Iran-140 anti-submarine variants to replace current old aicraft in these roles.

The airborne transportation fleet would benefit from new additions too. From Iran-140's to medium and heavy transports (here China has some good options on offer in the C-130 class, other than that the IRGC's An-74 and Il-76 fleet could be augmented by a handful of units).

The last item would be new refuelling planes, again with a dedicated Iran-140 variant and some larger aircraft as well.
 
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makranman

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67 units I believe it was... of Su-35's. But now we are hearing rumors of a deal for 100 Su-30SM with local production (which had already been reported repeatdely in the past, with some versions claiming 200+ Su-30 fighters). Don't know which would be better (though I have an uninformed preference for 67 Su-35 over 100 Su-30SM).




Pretty close to my idea of an ideal procurement operation, actually. I would say go for those 67 Su-35's to assist the F-14's in fulfilling the heavy interceptor role (bringing the total number of such fighters to around 120), in addition to 100-120 J-10C as medium multirole fighters (more would be too expensive).

With this, Iran could get rid of its Mig-29s (by donating them to Syria for instance), F-4's, Mirage F-1's, as well as various older Mig- and Su-/Su-clones either purchased from China or received from Iraq in 1991 (except for the IRGCAF's recently overhauled and upgraded Su-22's, I guess). Quite the alleviation and streamlining in logistical terms, and savings on the maintenance of older aircraft.

The F-5's could be replaced by domestically built Kowsars. The Su-24's are still potentially useful for low altitude approach, long range interdiction strikes including against aircraft carriers - if their numbers could be brought to some 80, given their reasonable price tag, this might be a good thing to do.

Of course some 3 to 5 heavier AWACS aircraft as well as up to 6 or 7 locally-produced light AEW-variant Iran-140's would be helpful as well. A few early warning helicopters for the navy would be another option, these could also be designed locally.
common people. iran is under HEAVY sanctions! we have big problems concerning Covid and medicine in the country, the economy is is shambles. and it is getting worse by the day.
anything above a say 10B$ deal is out of the question. donating planes to anyone is also out of the question.
it is miracle if russia delivers more than 50 planes to iran. let alone allowing us to assemble them inside of iran...
IMO, russians are way more devious than the US... and the US is the big satan. so do the math yourselves...

Even if we get to upgrade our mig 29 fleet, i will be more than happy.
 

SalarHaqq

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common people. iran is under HEAVY sanctions! we have big problems concerning Covid and medicine in the country, the economy is is shambles. and it is getting worse by the day.
anything above a say 10B$ deal is out of the question. donating planes to anyone is also out of the question.
it is miracle if russia delivers more than 50 planes to iran. let alone allowing us to assemble them inside of iran...
IMO, russians are way more devious than the US... and the US is the big satan. so do the math yourselves...

Even if we get to upgrade our mig 29 fleet, i will be more than happy.
So what are you arguing exactly, that Iran shouldn't purchase anything even if she could (nor donate old planes) because of economic reasons, or that Russia and China won't deliver anyway due to sanctions but that Iran should try nonetheless?

If you noticed, I spoke of an ideal scenario, meaning that I do not necessarily consider it as the most realistic one. So I'm not going to be overly disappointed either if it doesn't fully materialize.

As for economic stress, most countries are in some sort of a downward spiral right now, and COVID is affecting various nations more than Iran, yet they did not systematically stop all weapons deals. Also keep in mind this is an exceptional window of opportunity that may not repeat for the next decades, so considering threat levels, it would be justified for Iran to at least try and purchase whatever is really needed.

The only limitation, other than budgetary constraints of course (Iran's asymmetric, relatively low-cost doctrine must not be compromised), should be in terms of how these purchases might affect domestic defence industries: imports must be careful selected so as not to disincentivize local production, but complement and actually boost the latter (via reverse engineering opportunities).
 
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makranman

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So what are you arguing exactly, that Iran shouldn't purchase anything even if she could (nor donate old planes) because of economic reasons, or that Russia and China won't deliver anyway due to sanctions but that Iran should try nonetheless?

If you noticed, I spoke of an ideal scenario, meaning that I do not necessarily consider it as the most realistic one. So I'm not going to be overly disappointed either if it doesn't fully materialize.

As for economic stress, most countries are in some sort of a downward spiral right now, and COVID is affecting various nations more than Iran, yet they did not systematically stop all weapons deals. Also keep in mind this is an exceptional window of opportunity that may not repeat for the next decades, so considering threat levels, it would be justified for Iran to at least try and purchase whatever is really needed.

The only limitation, other than budgetary constraints of course (Iran's asymmetric, relatively low-cost doctrine must not be compromised), should be in terms of how these purchases might affect domestic defence industries: imports must be careful selected so as not to disincentivize local production, but complement and actually boost the latter (via reverse engineering opportunities).
1st of all, i am "نه سر پیاز، نه ته پیاز" nothing i say matters so...
all i'm saying, is iran could buy the absolute best from USSR decades ago, and we bought trash. later, they didn't even deliver those trash...
later iran bought S-300, kremlin banned us on its own.
later, russia did not Veto our sanctions. meaning, they screwed us!
and we were not in such a bad situation as we are now. right now, a single fighter can cause unseen consequences (think F-35 for arab city states or longer range BMs or...).
so relying on "packages" from russia is not the best choice IMO. our best choice is a mixture of following:
TOT on tech we don't have.
investing on our own industry and tech.
buying small numbers of fighters etc to fill the gap (as others said before.)

and lastly, trying to change the battlefield. going unmanned, going cyber. etc.
 

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