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EvilWesteners

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Not being an engine expert can I ask:
In terms of R&D work needed for an engine such as AL-31. Can you give an % estimate of effort required for any of the following domains : (If I missed an effort please add).

1- High level and detail design work of the engine itself

2- Material research of the engine (what alloys are needed ..etc)

3- Production of said materials (single crystals, alloys etc)

4- Engine support components (fuel pumps, electronic ..etc)

5- Engine assembly and test.

I am trying the wrap my head around what is it that makes reverse eng of this AL=31 so difficult....and I have no doubt about what so said about it being a very complex process.
Aryobarzan jan, thanks for your question. I always enjoy reading your posts. Insight from a different perspective, it is refreshing and forces me to think like others, rather than from an engineering point of view.

Regarding your question, here's what I have to say (sorry if it is long with lots of background description):

Most of my hands-on experience came right after my post grad, and I got to work quite a bit in UK and France, for the 10 years after my college days. I always loved the part of my college course that was Mech Engineering (in particular control engineering which is electronics and mechanics with sensors) at college. During college I worked in Jaguar plant working on AI gear box for the S-Type which had not come out yet (it came out in 1999).

At RR, I worked on a variety of engines, there is no favorite since you have to not get too "close and personal" with any engine, as RR does not allow it. They want you to be moved around, from project to project, depending on "client" needs. I had a boss and then I had THE BOSS, which was either MOD or the U.S. military hot shot paying for everything, which made my managers suck ever inch of their ****. Then I became the manager and had to do the same, like rolling a dice (hand movement) in a casino.

RR always had a bunch of projects with the French, so I would be sent there a lot in the final 5+ years I was there. My roles had changed so many times.

I met many Iranians who worked at RR simply because they were sent there during the Shah's regime to train at RR. I spoke with them, most returned and we still keep in touch (somewhat, when they have time).

More specific to your question, R&D of a competent, leading, current technology engine depends on many things. Based on all the things I have seen at work (briefly mentioned above), I think the NUMBER 1 requirement is POLITICAL WILL.

Building Bavar 373 was not easy. But Iran had the absolute political will to build it. From the supreme leader to everyone else involved, they knew they had to build it or else U.S. and other cock-sucking maggots will bully Iran or bomb it. So they did it and now, making better technology implementation every day, and the next upgrade is quite interesting if they finish it.

The fighter airplanes, engines, AA missiles, AESA or multi-band, multi-mode, multi-channel PESA radars with solid state amplifiers, and other air force assets are NO DIFFERENT.

First, there needs to be political will. Then everything else is possible, within reason and time and cost.

If cost is no object, then anything is still possible within reason, but quicker.

Knowing all the above, we can now talk about the complexity of technology.

To me a gas turbine engine (having seen it through my own eyes for decades) has layers of "generations". What I mean is I don't see 5th, or 4th generation, or 3rd generation etc. as we all often talk about to communicate with each other.

I see more like 30+ generations of engines. And my basis on this is, ... materials engineering, implementation requirements, performance, reliability. To me an engine is a COMPROMISE, and what to make comes from GOOD JUDGMENT.

People (aviation engineers) here in U.S. often think RR Olympus is 1 engine or a few variations of one engine. Not true. RR Oly is about 20+ generations. From Bristol to RR, there has been so many variations, so many changes, so many tweaks that radically changed the engine, then changed back because of issues, be it fuel consumption, heating, material changes etc. etc.

Item (1) in your question, referring to design, well there is no 1 stage design. There are many variations, and many things that change and they retrospectively change other things within the design and make you go back to customer to re-evaluate the original specification/requirements and managing the expectations.

That is why I suggested in the past that Iran build an existing engine that it knows and knows well, like AL21. It is a KNOWN KNOWN and there is no surprises. Or even building an R35. All the problems and tweaks and variations have already been addressed. R35 not as much as AL21, but still better than relying on an engine that you have no idea when it will be ready for AF missions. Better for Iran in its unique position, with very limited funds, to go with known knowns.

I have never worked on a project that gave me more headaches (and I use to get all the headache projects), than working with a huge group of individuals and outside contractors regarding Nimrod. BAe and RR were at each others throats all the time. It was a *****ing nightmare. BR710 was what RR hated for this project but was forced to when the head of MOD division in Bath, came to see us. It was a nightmare. The engine was being simultaneously developed and tested in both U.K. and Germany. Imagine that? I hated going to Berlin. I love south of Germany, but Berlin, those days, was a ****hole and very nasty. I preferred going to Toulouse or Baden See, but not freaking Berlin. It was chaos what was going on with regards to Nimrod and Nimrod upgrade.

Things don't work they way it seems outside of these companies.

Your item (2), regarding materials, let me give you an actual platform I worked on quite a bit. Tay engine is one I don't hate too much (hehe). It is a pretty good engine, relatively. RR had many hopes for this, which of course never materialized since Pratt Whitney R&D went at lightening speed during 1990-2005. Their lobby groups in Washington are also amazing.

Tay has almost 400 different types of metal alloys, each part of the engine is almost different than another part, and each of these are developed by some ugly looking factory in some god-never seen little crappy town in England. It was depressing to go to some of these factories for QA, although the people were wonderful and the pubs were elegant with giant fire places the size of a small house. But imagine Iran needing to have all these infrastructures developed first before they can design an engine? Each of these factories had some special processes to build their own unique part, and if one process for one of these components were screwed up, (or say wrongly reverse engineered), then the project WOUDL BE screwed.

Having spend so many hours in National Archives looking through historic documents, I cannot explain to anyone HOW MUCH KNOWLEDGE was stolen from the NAZIs. Also, the Brits, Froggies (French), and the Yanks shared all this information with one another during the cold war against the Russians.

Russians on the hand did also get quite a chunk of the Nazis research but went on a TRIAL AND ERROR basis rather than just sharing with allies. Russians and French engineers are the best engineers I have ever worked with (and Jews). They are problem solvers with incredible amount of creativity. However, Germans are innovators, not just problem solvers. They get bored as soon as they innovated and want to move on to the next big idea.

So just knowing material engineering, or having access to alloys, is not enough. More than anything a country needs a CONSISTENT R&D ... todays world is different than when I came out of college. RR is working hard to produce 3D metal printing (completely not just parts or pieces) of an entire engine, so is Snecma offshoot, or Safran, or GE, so is PW and so is everyone else (wannabe's).

Ceramic Matrix Composites and machining is really the way everyone is going. Huge investment in this area. But you get 1 process wrong (for instance, final covering layer), and your engine is worthless.

There needs to be a huge infrastructure CONTINOUSLY feeding this beast if you want to be a leading edge or a leading edge follower. It is an INVESTMENT like any other investment (e.g. medical industry, petrochemicals, construction and high rises, etc. ). Iran needs the capital to invest. It does not have it.

Item (3) and (4), Iran can build the parts, to a more or less, ok degree. Depends on what specifically we are talking about. Single crystals is no problem for Iran. In fact I use to talk to one of their leading engineers in one of their factories doing pretty surprising things, but then he was not getting his salary (for months) and the owner was an asswipe kid who knew nothing, had inherited the business, and he went to China to get his 2nd PHD in materials engineering (turbine blade manufacturing) with $6K a month salary (yes as a student). Unfortunately, during Covid he went back to Iran to see his friends and now he is stuck there for 1 year now. Funny how life works.

Item (5) is, I believe, the easiest for Iran. Iranian technicians and factory workers are very different than the engineers I worked with in U.K. that came back to work from lunch completely plastered. Iranian factory workers still have PRIDE. U.K. was, ummmm - what can I say.

PeeD posted earlier that Iran can make all blades, to be precise, "Iran is capable to do it, see MAPNA turbines". This is not actually true. Iran Mapna management team who use to live and work in Germany and have German citizenship (many of them, some Austrian), receive certain pieces and finish or replace with older technologies. Iran CANNOT build some of the high-tech blades and blisks COMPLTELY on its own. That one I can assure you of. My family members are involved in Germany, so I cannot talk about this too much.

But older technologies, yes they can. Not so efficient as SGT-800, not even close, and not same level of reliability and performance and durability and automation control systems or sensors. But yes, it is great that Mapna is doing such level turbines in addition to 100s of wind turbines and other things they are doing in the auto industry.

I believe with all my heart that Iran can however build an engine like AL21 and/or R35. It would take a few years, the infrastructure for such a 3rd gen engine can be put together (with some help from Russia) within 9 or 10 months - of course with 100% POLITICAL WILL.

Thank you for your post. Sorry with delays. I don't always come to this forum, as I get busy with work.
 
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Sineva

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I think the NUMBER 1 requirement is POLITICAL WILL.
You`ve hit the nail on the head my friend!:enjoy:
With the requisite political will,ALL things are possible,but without that will,then it doesnt matter how many other factors may be in somethings favor,nothing will be achieved.
 

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That is likely true. But what Iran has over China is Ingenuity and fresh ideas. China for all its power (education base, money, espionage) at the end of the day copies the ideas of other nations using various levers of coercion.

If Iran had 1/4 of the clout and economic resources China had it would dominate the world. Right now it has spread across the entire Middle East while under the worst sanctions in human history and 4 major power groups acting against (EU, US, Arabs and Israel, and Russia/China) yes last one is surprising but Russia and China have been working with the West to mitigate Iran’s reach for quite some time.

Now imagine an Iran that has 100B military budget, 3-4T economy, and access to many of the worlds technologies and equipment.....quite scary. Which is why this sanctions machine will never be unraveled.
Yes you are correct to a degree Themmortal.

However my friend, we all have our own handicaps. I know I have mine. Iran has its own, and so does China.

Fact: China has done in the last 30 years, what no other nation ever has, from where they started to where they are today. Even Germany did not do this much, from zero, between WW1 and WW2.

China has accomplished amazing things. I have been there a dozen times. They managed to impress me with what they have accomplished. They are thinking ahead of Western ideology of global hegemony, the 500 years of slavery and richman-poorman economic system.

Why do you think both Dems and Rep decided to TAKE ON China, as did Winston Churchill with Germany?

The West is scared and knows that it is inevitable that China will rise above them. So they want to stop it.

I will mention a contrast that I see between China and Iran, which will upset everyone here, most probably.

In China I saw women work unimaginable hours and devotion. In Iran, most women sit at home and want to be treated like a princess and bitch at everyone else. How many times have you seen an Iranian wife rip her husband a new @$$hole? I have seen at least 50+. Iranian women can be wonderful and gentile but the ones that are not, ARE quite aggressive and in love with money rather than national pride. Not all of course, I am generalizing.

Yes, even the higher elite classes of Chinese are serious workers. Yet most Iranian girls show off what they have, their cars, and their rings.

Don't get mad at me, but what I have seen in China, they are 50 years ahead of Iran. Go to a Chinese printed circuit board factory with full automation, and compare it to the Dell MF (manufacturing facility) in Austin (where I did a project for QA a while back), and you would be shocked.

China will be the next superpower - but the question is, how will it behave? Like Europeans (serving their interests at anyone else's expense, or will it be fair because it will remember its own humiliation and allow civility to rule its heart?).

Americans say, China will be like Daenerys Targaryen, scorch-earthing everything, when they get the ultimate power. Who knows?

Iran is winning in Middle East, but it is NOT PLAYING globally. Not yet.

Too many Iranians have not learned the lesson of "UNITY" yet, as did the Europeans and Americans a while back.

Iranians eat their own, just see MEK. Single handedly they have cause 15 years of economic nightmare for Iranian people.

Iranian people need to evolve, and in order to do so, they need 2 generations of intellectual growth and social experimenting - both being highly dependent on ECONOMIC PROSPERITY. It will have its own problems, but will allow Iranians to understand the significance of UNITY in global stature and positioning.

Ideally, Iran needs a better more improved, Islamic Republic of Iran 2.0
 
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EvilWesteners

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You`ve hit the nail on the head my friend!:enjoy:
With the requisite political will,ALL things are possible,but without that will,then it doesnt matter how many other factors may be in somethings favor,nothing will be achieved.
Love your enthusiasm Sineva. You remind me of ....

 

PeeD

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PeeD posted earlier that Iran can make all blades, to be precise, "Iran is capable to do it, see MAPNA turbines". This is not actually true. Iran Mapna management team who use to live and work in Germany and have German citizenship (many of them, some Austrian), receive certain pieces and finish or replace with older technologies. Iran CANNOT build some of the high-tech blades and blisks COMPLTELY on its own. That one I can assure you of. My family members are involved in Germany, so I cannot talk about this too much.

But older technologies, yes they can. Not so efficient as SGT-800, not even close, and not same level of reliability and performance and durability and automation control systems or sensors. But yes, it is great that Mapna is doing such level turbines in addition to 100s of wind turbines and other things they are doing in the auto industry.
You said it on your own: Tay, a 60's design, needed 500 different alloys.
MAPNA to build the early 80's AL-31 has sufficient level of material engineering. It used DS for the 1st stage turbine as far as I know, not blisks or fancy stuff either.

So AL-31 is within reach at the materials front. Competing with state of the art engines however is not what I claimed.

Whats left is the design side. Here is where I see the biggest problems for a "copy", you cant copy a AL-31, you need to re-engineer it completely.

Without MAPNA's material expertise Iran would be left at the same hurdle as WS-10: When Chinese developed it, they had nothing like MAPNA and had to do all the materials work in addition to the re-engineering.

So in the context of RD-33 and AL-31, both 70's origin designs, I'm hopeful that Iran manages production on the 2020's, 40-50 years afterwards.

PS: Good post, legit things said.
 

EvilWesteners

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You said it on your own: Tay, a 60's design, needed 500 different alloys.
MAPNA to build the early 80's AL-31 has sufficient level of material engineering. It used DS for the 1st stage turbine as far as I know, not blisks or fancy stuff either.

So AL-31 is within reach at the materials front. Competing with state of the art engines however is not what I claimed.

Whats left is the design side. Here is where I see the biggest problems for a "copy", you cant copy a AL-31, you need to re-engineer it completely.

Without MAPNA's material expertise Iran would be left at the same hurdle as WS-10: When Chinese developed it, they had nothing like MAPNA and had to do all the materials work in addition to the re-engineering.

So in the context of RD-33 and AL-31, both 70's origin designs, I'm hopeful that Iran manages production on the 2020's, 40-50 years afterwards.

PS: Good post, legit things said.

Good points my friend.

I am not confident that Iran can build a 1990 level AL31 that is "reliable". I am just not confident. I love those guys at MAPNA. They are generous, they are decent, they are Iranian elites (educated to high degree) who love Iran so much, they went back and are working and bringing up other similar Iranians within. They are doing some amazing things there. They are also helping other companies (e.g. the solar company in Shiraz) out of the goodness of their heart. They also know Western politics vs. Eastern politics (guilt vs. shame), and they are using Siemens pull-out of Iran because of Trump in very clever ways to get sympathetic people at Siemens to help Iran. They are using the leverage. All that is good.

I am just not confident that Iran can build AL31 at the 1990s level, to an acceptable degree of reliability (the only way it makes sense) anything within a 5-6 year frame, even with 100% full political will. I have been around these engines and I have seen how teams of engine designers screwed everything up until a project manager with exceptional JUDGMENT came in and made unorthodox decisions and pulled it off.

I believe Iran can with AL21. It is an easy engine and many known knowns.

Tay is not from 1960s. You are talking Spey, right? Tay is much different than Spey, as your know.

Tay was started (planning) in 1977, by 1981 it got initial approval and funding (some from Netherlands for Fokker 100), then designed, built and tested by 1983, and by 1988 it was a fully operational, manual modified and sent out to customers.

Always a pleasure to read your posts and learn from your vast knowledge. Have a great weekend.
 

Sineva

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Love your enthusiasm Sineva. You remind me of ....

Oh,its not enthusiasm,believe me,its more that so many people seemingly tend to ignore this one deceptively simple little fact,so its actually rather refreshing to see someone else pointing out how vital this factor is for a change.
However,when it comes to irans conventional manned airpower,I`m not sure that the actual returns would be worth the not inconsiderable investment in the various resources that would be required to reverse/reengineer even a 3rd gen turbojet engine.

I`m not so sure lloyds "enthusiastic" as much as he is simply living in his own crazy,albeit hilarious,little reality.🙃
 

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That is likely true. But what Iran has over China is Ingenuity and fresh ideas. China for all its power (education base, money, espionage) at the end of the day copies the ideas of other nations using various levers of coercion.
Let’s agree to disagree. No one has stopped Iran or other nations from copying the ideas of other nations..... Patents become legally void after 19 years, and Iran is welcome to copy F-14, Boeing 707, etc. after having and operating them for more than 4 decades. The reality is different from what you said; otherwise there were more than one China across the globe. We need to admire Chinese hardworking and goal-oriented culture.
 
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PeeD

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Good points my friend.

I am not confident that Iran can build a 1990 level AL31 that is "reliable". I am just not confident. I love those guys at MAPNA. They are generous, they are decent, they are Iranian elites (educated to high degree) who love Iran so much, they went back and are working and bringing up other similar Iranians within. They are doing some amazing things there. They are also helping other companies (e.g. the solar company in Shiraz) out of the goodness of their heart. They also know Western politics vs. Eastern politics (guilt vs. shame), and they are using Siemens pull-out of Iran because of Trump in very clever ways to get sympathetic people at Siemens to help Iran. They are using the leverage. All that is good.

I am just not confident that Iran can build AL31 at the 1990s level, to an acceptable degree of reliability (the only way it makes sense) anything within a 5-6 year frame, even with 100% full political will. I have been around these engines and I have seen how teams of engine designers screwed everything up until a project manager with exceptional JUDGMENT came in and made unorthodox decisions and pulled it off.

I believe Iran can with AL21. It is an easy engine and many known knowns.

Tay is not from 1960s. You are talking Spey, right? Tay is much different than Spey, as your know.

Tay was started (planning) in 1977, by 1981 it got initial approval and funding (some from Netherlands for Fokker 100), then designed, built and tested by 1983, and by 1988 it was a fully operational, manual modified and sent out to customers.
I agree that reliability could be an issue, due to mistakes and unknowns during re-engineering, unknown problems could significantly reduce reliability. But that would be from the design side, on materials I don't see a serious problem due to MAPNA. Its a great relief if you have a materials database and production where you can replace the original 70's alloys with 2020 materials.

No such complex mechanical system such as a AL-31 has ever been successfully re-engineered, hence I share your doubts. Iran has shown some capabilities in re-engineering via its FJ-33 varriant.

As for Spay and Tay, you are right Spay is the 60's origin of Tay.

Always a pleasure to read your posts and learn from your vast knowledge. Have a great weekend.
Thanks, same here.
 

zectech

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Iranian Army unveils homemade turbojet engine, new radar

Sunday, 25 April 2021 10:17 AM [ Last Update: Sunday, 25 April 2021 10:33 AM ]


US Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) (L) talks with Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) during a rally with fellow Democrats before voting on H.R. 1, or the People Act, on the East Steps of the US Capitol on March 08, 2019 in Washington, DC. (AFP photo)

Deputy Chief of Army for Coordination Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari (C) is briefed on the new achievements developed by Iranian experts at the Research and Self-Sufficiency Jihad Organization of the Army Ground Force during a ceremony in Tehran, Iran, on April 25, 2021. (Photo by Tasnim news agency)

The Iranian Army Ground Force has unveiled seven domestically-developed high-tech military achievements, including air defense systems, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and electronic warfare devices.
The achievements developed by Iranian experts at the Research and Self-Sufficiency Jihad Organization of the Army Ground Force were put on display on Sunday during a ceremony in the presence of Deputy Chief of Army for Coordination Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari and Commander of the Iranian Army Ground Force Brigadier General Kioumars Heydari.
The ceremony rolled out a radar warning system capable of detecting and jamming airborne interception radars used in drones, helicopters and fighter jets, in addition to an alarm system for detection of laser-guided weaponry and airborne threats, which can be employed against the enemy’s short-range air defense systems and has the ability to send alerts to UAV ground control stations.
The Ground Force also showcased Ranesh-1 (Propulsion-1) micro turbojet engine, which can be used in various drones, single-seat light aircraft, a wide array of missile systems, and unmanned boats.
The turbojet engine is light enough to generate high speed thrust, runs on different types of fuel, has a high service ceiling compared to piston engines, can carry payloads, and can considerably boost the flight endurance record in a variety of drones.
The other home-grown products included self-protection and drone-mounted TIAM 1400 system for detection of the enemy’s radars and air surveillance.

The system uses different frequency bands to decipher various types of air surveillance radar signals, and intelligently transmits the received signal to the jammer in order to disrupt it.
The ceremony also featured a flight system that is based on artificial intelligence and incorporates drones and a land-based Taha 1400 radar jamming system that can be carried by drones.

Taha 1400 system uses directional antennas to intelligently cover a wide area of operation, and maintains the flight safety of various drones in the enemy’s locale.
The system is smart and light, a low-voltage consumer and can be installed quickly and easily.
Finally, a land-based jamming system used for countering hostile drones and remote-controlled systems was among the new military achievements unveiled on Sunday.

Iranian military experts and technicians have in recent years made great progress in indigenously developing and manufacturing a broad range of equipment, making the armed forces self-sufficient in this regard.
Iranian officials have repeatedly underscored that the Islamic Republic will not hesitate to build up its defense capabilities, emphasizing such abilities are entirely meant for the purpose of defense and will be never subject to negotiations.

 

Ich

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Also mature in building turbofan?

Top Commander: Iran Mature in Advanced Aircraft Engine Production

TEHRAN (FNA)- Chief of Staff of Iran's Armed Forces Major General Mohammad Hossein Baqeri said that the efforts of committed specialists and scientists have made Iran mature in making advanced aircraft engines.

"Iran, with the efforts of its committed specialists and scientists, has reached a maturity that is able to enter the serious field of design and production of advanced aircraft engines by relying on internal capacities and operate thousands of aircraft, UAVs and missiles with Iranian engines," General Baqeri said on Tuesday while visiting the national engine production line of the Ministry of Defense Air Force Organization.
"Aircraft engines are one of the most important parts that few countries are able to produce," he added.

"Undoubtedly, enhancing the country's defense power is a key component of strengthening and the aircraft engine design and production industry is also one of the main components of this issue," the senior commander stressed.

In relevant remarks in early March, Defense Minister Brigadier General Amir Hatami said that Iran’s Armed Forces have defeated the enemy by relying on domestic power, optimizing defense equipment and indigenizing weapons.

“The Islamic Republic succeeded to defeat the enemy with three strategies, namely, relying on domestic power, optimizing defense and security equipment with the current conditions, and producing domestic weapons in various fields of land, maritime, missile, and cyber warfare,” Hatami said on Monday March 1 on the sidelines of delivering a number of overhauled helicopters and military equipment to the Army Air Force.

“The enemy tried to defeat Iran with two strategies of sanctions and preventing the purchase of equipment,” the Iranian Minister noted.

He further said that Iran’s Armed Forces, even under harsh pressures, stood on their own feet and became self-reliant in all defense areas.

“Overhaul of light, semi-heavy, and heavy military equipment by domestic experts is a low-cost and safe way to upgrade the Armed Forces' defense capabilities,” Hatami explained.

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/140...r-Iran-Mare-in-Advanced-Aircraf-Engine-Prdcin
 

EvilWesteners

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Also mature in building turbofan?

Top Commander: Iran Mature in Advanced Aircraft Engine Production

TEHRAN (FNA)- Chief of Staff of Iran's Armed Forces Major General Mohammad Hossein Baqeri said that the efforts of committed specialists and scientists have made Iran mature in making advanced aircraft engines.

"Iran, with the efforts of its committed specialists and scientists, has reached a maturity that is able to enter the serious field of design and production of advanced aircraft engines by relying on internal capacities and operate thousands of aircraft, UAVs and missiles with Iranian engines," General Baqeri said on Tuesday while visiting the national engine production line of the Ministry of Defense Air Force Organization.
"Aircraft engines are one of the most important parts that few countries are able to produce," he added.

"Undoubtedly, enhancing the country's defense power is a key component of strengthening and the aircraft engine design and production industry is also one of the main components of this issue," the senior commander stressed.

In relevant remarks in early March, Defense Minister Brigadier General Amir Hatami said that Iran’s Armed Forces have defeated the enemy by relying on domestic power, optimizing defense equipment and indigenizing weapons.

“The Islamic Republic succeeded to defeat the enemy with three strategies, namely, relying on domestic power, optimizing defense and security equipment with the current conditions, and producing domestic weapons in various fields of land, maritime, missile, and cyber warfare,” Hatami said on Monday March 1 on the sidelines of delivering a number of overhauled helicopters and military equipment to the Army Air Force.

“The enemy tried to defeat Iran with two strategies of sanctions and preventing the purchase of equipment,” the Iranian Minister noted.

He further said that Iran’s Armed Forces, even under harsh pressures, stood on their own feet and became self-reliant in all defense areas.

“Overhaul of light, semi-heavy, and heavy military equipment by domestic experts is a low-cost and safe way to upgrade the Armed Forces' defense capabilities,” Hatami explained.

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/140...r-Iran-Mare-in-Advanced-Aircraf-Engine-Prdcin
A lot was said, BUT it said nothing new and concrete.

Iran has had (for a long time) the "production industry", the "specialists", and the "scientists". And pleeeeenty of time to scale it all up. Heck they have a dozen senior Iranian engineers that use to work with me in MOD and RR, now back in Iran. There is a really sweet guy, about 75 now I would guess, tells you amazing poems, and he is in Iran, in Esfahan, and he can do magic. He really CAN do magic with engine design. He is quite remarkable and I would not say that about too many people that I have worked with for the last 35+ years. He was so loved by everyone at RR design and development team and the trouble shooting squad. He is in fact in Iran, retired and his wife has a very small hotel. So, if Iran simply used this guy, backed with necessary funds, and with political will, and the wonderful young engineers Iran has, it would build an "okay" 1980s- early 1990s technology engine. Last I spoke with this guy, no one has approached him for scientific assistance or for his vast incredible experience. In fact, I know for sure, U.S. was trying to get the U.K. to not allow him to leave, I know that cause I was interviewed about it back in 2007. Talk is cheap. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. Iran needs to devote time, energy, funds, and other resources to building an engine for the air force. So far, it is not doing so, at the scale it needs to. Most definitely because it does not have the fund allocation or the prioritization by senior gov officials. My 2 cents here.
 
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TheImmortal

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A lot was said, BUT it said nothing new and concrete.

Iran has had (for a long time) the "production industry", the "specialists", and the "scientists". And pleeeeenty of time to scale it all up. Heck they have a dozen senior Iranian engineers that use to work with me in MOD and RR, now back in Iran. There is a really sweet guy, about 75 now I would guess, tells you amazing poems, and he is in Iran, in Esfahan, and he can do magic. He really CAN do magic with engine design. He is quite remarkable and I would not say that about too many people that I have worked with for the last 35+ years. He was so loved by everyone at RR design and development team and the trouble shooting squad. He is in fact in Iran, retired and his wife has a very small hotel. So, if Iran simply used this guy, backed with necessary funds, and with political will, and the wonderful young engineers Iran has, it would build an "okay" 1980s- early 1990s technology engine. Last I spoke with this guy, no one has approached him for scientific assistance or for his vast incredible experience. In fact, I know for sure, U.S. was trying to get the U.K. to not allow him to leave, I know that cause I was interviewed about it back in 2007. Talk is cheap. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. Iran needs to devote time, energy, funds, and other resources to building an engine for the air force. So far, it is not doing so, at the scale it needs to. Most definitely because it does not have the fund allocation or the prioritization by senior gov officials. My 2 cents here.
The issue here is two fold

1) Paranoia of air forces leading coup attempts

2) IRGC domination of Iran’s government (next president could be IRGC alumni) and military funds

IRGC while having made tremendous progress also has its faults. Most don’t like to admit that Solemani had a love affair with human wave tactics and martyrdom.... indeed one can look at ISIS battles in Iraq as evidence.

IRGC also did not view air power as necessary even in a conflict like Syria. However, after being pushed against the wall (terrorists were threatening to invade alawite strongholds) Solemani and IRGC brass agreed on Russian air power. Indeed the results swayed opinion in IRGC so much they set up their own Air Force and work on a CAS aircraft. Now I don’t know what point the project is at now.

But here is my point, until IRGC embraces air warfare and the importance of it then Air Force will remain stagnant.

A swarm of supersonic high altitude unmanned mini stealth bombers (think RQ-170 x 5 in size) can do the job of 100+ missiles. And a true interceptor can take the load off the domestic AD network during war.

IRGC old guard needs to accept this reality. The world cannot be conquered by arrows(missiles) alone. Even the Persian empire realized that fact (a little too late).
 

Stryker1982

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A swarm of supersonic high altitude unmanned mini stealth bombers (think RQ-170 x 5 in size) can do the job of 100+ missiles. And a true interceptor can take the load off the domestic AD network during war.
With the introduction of Jahesh-700, it does appear that we are going in this direction. Heavier drones, although Iran is not one to put all eggs in its basket, i.e. opts for low cost, high volume doctrine, the need for more effective in every sense of the word combat drones is going to be needed in the future as advanced nations move away from manned aircraft.

Aside from payload, one can even imagine drone swarm stored in the bomb bay as a possible future variant. I agree with you, CAS aircraft with save so many Iranian lives.
 

Bahram Esfandiari

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The issue here is two fold

1) Paranoia of air forces leading coup attempts

2) IRGC domination of Iran’s government (next president could be IRGC alumni) and military funds

IRGC while having made tremendous progress also has its faults. Most don’t like to admit that Solemani had a love affair with human wave tactics and martyrdom.... indeed one can look at ISIS battles in Iraq as evidence.

IRGC also did not view air power as necessary even in a conflict like Syria. However, after being pushed against the wall (terrorists were threatening to invade alawite strongholds) Solemani and IRGC brass agreed on Russian air power. Indeed the results swayed opinion in IRGC so much they set up their own Air Force and work on a CAS aircraft. Now I don’t know what point the project is at now.

But here is my point, until IRGC embraces air warfare and the importance of it then Air Force will remain stagnant.

A swarm of supersonic high altitude unmanned mini stealth bombers (think RQ-170 x 5 in size) can do the job of 100+ missiles. And a true interceptor can take the load off the domestic AD network during war.

IRGC old guard needs to accept this reality. The world cannot be conquered by arrows(missiles) alone. Even the Persian empire realized that fact (a little too late).
IRGC Aerospace Force was operating Iran's fleet of Su-25 ground attack aircraft and EMB-312 Tucano trainer/ light attack air craft since at least the mid 1990s, long before the Syrian Civil War.
 

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