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Myself

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Al-21F is basically a modern copy of J-79 engine based on the samples captured by Soviets from the crashed Phantoms during the Vietnam war. It is an excellent choice to replace J-79s, as well as supporting the grounded fleet of Fencers. It is superior to J-79 almost in all aspects.

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EvilWesteners

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Al-21F is basically a modern copy of J-79 engine based on the samples captured by Soviets from the crashed Phantoms during the Vietnam war. It is an excellent choice to replace J-79s, as well as supporting the grounded fleet of Fencers. It is superior to J-79 almost in all aspects.

View attachment 681592
I agree, it is superior in every way. As I mentioned before (in a response to PeeD), Iran can easily fasten these into F4s instead of J79. Iran also has had long record of use and maintenance of AL21F (Su24).

This is a simple project, does not cost a lot, and it can make a major difference in range as the 17,000lb non-afterburner thrust is quite sufficient to avoid using afterburner and wasting precious fuel. Which is almost the same as J79 WITH afterburner.

My logic behind this comes from years of analysis. Iran has a great workhorse fleet of F4Es and a few F4Ds, it makes sense AT THIS POINT (not a few years from now), to keep these operational and even enhance their performance temporarily until Iran can get a decent replacement for the next 20+ years.

I am sure both myself, PeeD, and many others here would love to see Iran have 240 SU30s and SU35s, but we live in a real world. Russians (3 times, not the 2 times most people know about and talk about) promised to sell Mig31 to Iran (once even got paid in advance, large sum as well), and every time it refused to do so after pressure from U,S. and some major threats or offers to buy.

Iran for Russia and China are simply one thing: Leverage over U.S. behavior towards them.

So Iran has to build its own leverage. With Russia and China in mind, they need to get their existing jet to a certain degree of competency so she does not look so desperate (if such a thing is possible). I am sure right about now Peed is probably thinking that the major problems with F4 don't go away with a slightly better performance and better fuel engine. The landing gear is a major problem, it has low landing maximum weight, and there are other issue with airframe, radar signature, and I can think of another 23 things wrong with it.

But for certain functions, still F4 is a great aircraft. If it has extended range (AL21F would help, and two bolt on fuel tank on top by the fuselage would help), then it can carry 3 anti-ship missiles which force an adversary to MAKE PLANS AROUND that kind of threat/scenario.

The more of your adversary's resources to bog down to cover potential scenarios, the more you can find a hole in its defense/offense to act against it. Iran just needs one or two shots in an all out war, then the whole game changes.

Iran did not get that shot during Operation Praying Mantis.

But in the next conflict OR TO AVOID ONE (which is what it has so far, remembering that George @$$wipe W. Bush did want to attack Iran in December 2006 and only the Joint Chief of Staff's threat of resignation forced him to change his mind).

Iran also needs training new pilots and new tactics like the one they have with "sandwich". Great air combat tact to use multiple planes for a specific advantage (hence F14 + Mig 29 + a F5e). However this is not that ideal and secure data linking is still an issue IF USED AGAINST U.S.

If one could have his cake and eat it too, I would love for Iran to have a AL41F license for production and installation/maintenance. No doubt Russia does not want that unless the price was just so sweet one could not ignore. But Iran cannot pay that price.

Iran more than anything needs STANDARDIZATION in engines.

The LTC4B-8D (a great engine for Iran's hot and high) is another perfect example. Iran can use this engine for heavy attack helicopters, for medium transport helicopters, even 2 of these for something like a EH101 or CH148 for the Navy.

This engine is a derivative of the same engine in CH53D.

Standardization is key for Iran to keep costs down, keep maintenance under control. Even if these engines are not fuel efficient, so what? Iran's biggest problem is not fuel access.
 

foxhoundbis

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.... AL21F (Su24)....
This is a simple project, does not cost a lot,...
Yes and no. Yes because U can find easily any good Iranian engineer able to do this. U seem to forget that Iran does have the know-how to implement any jet engine for a while, maybe since the end of 70's. But.....
I think U don't realize what it asks. To do that U need tool machineries like folding machines, forge machine, forge -cold- machine -not the easiest-, machining tools operations, machining control operations, CNC milling, late, boring, in fact, numerical control. Once you have it, and let's suppose it, to form technicians engineers, scientists etc... that can be suitable for this tool machineries. It asks you decades to overcome this.
If you succeed to have this, it is far to be enough, among the most crucial thing is to get industrial metallurgy infrastructure of Steel, Carbon, Aluminium, Manganese etc.... Steels and its alloys. U will have to master metal alloys etc....This is not all, U need to find and buy some rares metals, and West, like China and Russia, don't allow you. these tasks ask at least several decades. U don't have a wand that allows you to do everything, it is a hard task, and jet engines technology is considered the pinnacle of what a country is capable to do. This is called Infrastructure. I think U are far to realize how huge are these tasks. Moreover, it asks too much money.
I remember in the early 2000's Iran was enthusiasm to produce its own AN-140, and tried to avoid what I describe above, officials bought Ukrainian kits to speed the production of the aircraft, ignoring the trap built by its enemies. As far as I know -unless you have other information -, it was a total failure because most of the kits were jammed, intentionally malfunctioned kits, trapped kits, it resulted of several dramatic lethal accidents in Iran. It was not the error of Iranians, Iranian personnel worked very well, however, U guess who was behind. Most of the Ukrainian industry is managed by israèelis, and controlled with scrutiny by the US, and the entire West. I think this failure pushed Iranians high responsible to build by their own all the infra necessary of the aircraft industry.


There is another thing that U seem to not enough understand, even though you quickly evoke
George ..W. Bush did want to attack Iran...No doubt Russia does not want that...
Indeed no one wants Iran to access this technology. Because neither the West, nor and especially Russia and China wants. Because it does mean the end of Israèl, for that reason everything is good for them to trap Iran, so that Iran will stay dependant on Russia and China.

Nevertheless, the north Koreans allies succeeded to replicate the Mig-29 -there are at least more than 100 NK's Mig-29 operational -. No one knows how maybe they succeeded to buy tool machineries, or they succeeded to build by their own these machineries. In my view, as they succeed to build their own SLBM, Hypersonic weapons, their own tanks, Railguns, then they succeeded to build their own tool machineries. The most reason is: They succeed in 3D Printing's technology. Thus, for Iran, it could change all, but a war with West could be unfortunately a reality soon.
 

aryobarzan

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Yes and no. Yes because U can find easily any good Iranian engineer able to do this. U seem to forget that Iran does have the know-how to implement any jet engine for a while, maybe since the end of 70's. But.....
I think U don't realize what it asks. To do that U need tool machineries like folding machines, forge machine, forge -cold- machine -not the easiest-, machining tools operations, machining control operations, CNC milling, late, boring, in fact, numerical control. Once you have it, and let's suppose it, to form technicians engineers, scientists etc... that can be suitable for this tool machineries. It asks you decades to overcome this.
If you succeed to have this, it is far to be enough, among the most crucial thing is to get industrial metallurgy infrastructure of Steel, Carbon, Aluminium, Manganese etc.... Steels and its alloys. U will have to master metal alloys etc....This is not all, U need to find and buy some rares metals, and West, like China and Russia, don't allow you. these tasks ask at least several decades. U don't have a wand that allows you to do everything, it is a hard task, and jet engines technology is considered the pinnacle of what a country is capable to do. This is called Infrastructure. I think U are far to realize how huge are these tasks. Moreover, it asks too much money.
I remember in the early 2000's Iran was enthusiasm to produce its own AN-140, and tried to avoid what I describe above, officials bought Ukrainian kits to speed the production of the aircraft, ignoring the trap built by its enemies. As far as I know -unless you have other information -, it was a total failure because most of the kits were jammed, intentionally malfunctioned kits, trapped kits, it resulted of several dramatic lethal accidents in Iran. It was not the error of Iranians, Iranian personnel worked very well, however, U guess who was behind. Most of the Ukrainian industry is managed by israèelis, and controlled with scrutiny by the US, and the entire West. I think this failure pushed Iranians high responsible to build by their own all the infra necessary of the aircraft industry.


There is another thing that U seem to not enough understand, even though you quickly evoke

Indeed no one wants Iran to access this technology. Because neither the West, nor and especially Russia and China wants. Because it does mean the end of Israèl, for that reason everything is good for them to trap Iran, so that Iran will stay dependant on Russia and China.

Nevertheless, the north Koreans allies succeeded to replicate the Mig-29 -there are at least more than 100 NK's Mig-29 operational -. No one knows how maybe they succeeded to buy tool machineries, or they succeeded to build by their own these machineries. In my view, as they succeed to build their own SLBM, Hypersonic weapons, their own tanks, Railguns, then they succeeded to build their own tool machineries. The most reason is: They succeed in 3D Printing's technology. Thus, for Iran, it could change all, but a war with West could be unfortunately a reality soon.
I do not mean to be disrespectful but your view of Iran is somehow late by about 60 years...Iran had CNC Machines in late 70's (Olivetti) I was there, I saw them everyday. The infrastructure is there. What is lacking are funds and decisive management in the AF.
 
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Sineva

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I agree, it is superior in every way. As I mentioned before (in a response to PeeD), Iran can easily fasten these into F4s instead of J79. Iran also has had long record of use and maintenance of AL21F (Su24).

This is a simple project, does not cost a lot, and it can make a major difference in range as the 17,000lb non-afterburner thrust is quite sufficient to avoid using afterburner and wasting precious fuel. Which is almost the same as J79 WITH afterburner.

My logic behind this comes from years of analysis. Iran has a great workhorse fleet of F4Es and a few F4Ds, it makes sense AT THIS POINT (not a few years from now), to keep these operational and even enhance their performance temporarily until Iran can get a decent replacement for the next 20+ years.

I am sure both myself, PeeD, and many others here would love to see Iran have 240 SU30s and SU35s, but we live in a real world. Russians (3 times, not the 2 times most people know about and talk about) promised to sell Mig31 to Iran (once even got paid in advance, large sum as well), and every time it refused to do so after pressure from U,S. and some major threats or offers to buy.

Iran for Russia and China are simply one thing: Leverage over U.S. behavior towards them.

So Iran has to build its own leverage. With Russia and China in mind, they need to get their existing jet to a certain degree of competency so she does not look so desperate (if such a thing is possible). I am sure right about now Peed is probably thinking that the major problems with F4 don't go away with a slightly better performance and better fuel engine. The landing gear is a major problem, it has low landing maximum weight, and there are other issue with airframe, radar signature, and I can think of another 23 things wrong with it.

But for certain functions, still F4 is a great aircraft. If it has extended range (AL21F would help, and two bolt on fuel tank on top by the fuselage would help), then it can carry 3 anti-ship missiles which force an adversary to MAKE PLANS AROUND that kind of threat/scenario.

The more of your adversary's resources to bog down to cover potential scenarios, the more you can find a hole in its defense/offense to act against it. Iran just needs one or two shots in an all out war, then the whole game changes.

Iran did not get that shot during Operation Praying Mantis.

But in the next conflict OR TO AVOID ONE (which is what it has so far, remembering that George @$$wipe W. Bush did want to attack Iran in December 2006 and only the Joint Chief of Staff's threat of resignation forced him to change his mind).

Iran also needs training new pilots and new tactics like the one they have with "sandwich". Great air combat tact to use multiple planes for a specific advantage (hence F14 + Mig 29 + a F5e). However this is not that ideal and secure data linking is still an issue IF USED AGAINST U.S.

If one could have his cake and eat it too, I would love for Iran to have a AL41F license for production and installation/maintenance. No doubt Russia does not want that unless the price was just so sweet one could not ignore. But Iran cannot pay that price.

Iran more than anything needs STANDARDIZATION in engines.

The LTC4B-8D (a great engine for Iran's hot and high) is another perfect example. Iran can use this engine for heavy attack helicopters, for medium transport helicopters, even 2 of these for something like a EH101 or CH148 for the Navy.

This engine is a derivative of the same engine in CH53D.

Standardization is key for Iran to keep costs down, keep maintenance under control. Even if these engines are not fuel efficient, so what? Iran's biggest problem is not fuel access.
Another possibility in the re-engining department would be replacing the mirage f1s atar turbojet with a modified rd33 turbofan.The south africans successfully did this back in the beginning of the 90s,and it would certainly improve overall logistics,not to mention the performance of the f1 itself,by using the same engine as the mig29 fleet rather than having to maintain yet another logistics line for the small numbers of atars in service.
The most baffling failure on the part of the airforce,at least to my mind,has been its seeming inability to integrate the newer russian a2a weapons ie r27,r60,r73 with the older us/western airframes,which are basically stuck with 70s era sidewinders and sparrows,despite at least one previous attempt to do so.In addition there doesnt seem to have been any attempt to acquire more advanced a2a weapons like the r77 for reverse/re-engineering either despite the considerable potential performance upgrade this could give to the mig 29 fleet alone if it were combined with an indigenous fulcrum C type upgrade.
 

Myself

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RD-33 has been successfully installed and tested on both MIG-21 (F-7) and Mirage F-1 in other countries. Also, as discussed above, Al-21F is a modern copy of J-79 with the same dimensions and higher performance in every aspects. So, following EvilWesteners’ terminology of Standardization, these two engines can cover 5 types of fighters currently serving in the AirForce. A huge relief in logistics and cost for the Air Force! At the same time, J-85 will serve the fleet of F-5, Azaraksh, Saegheh, Kowsar, Yaseen, etc. The only remaining nightmare is the Tomcat fleet! I am not sure Iran can purchase SU-35, or SU-30, and again I am not sure if their engines can be installed on F-14.
This is a straightforward road map for the Air Force with respect to the nightmare of support and maintenance of too many jet engines. Scientists and engineers are there, infrastructure is there, enthusiasms by young generation is there.... Everything is there except for dedicated and patriotic leadership to make it happen!
 

EvilWesteners

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Another possibility in the re-engining department would be replacing the mirage f1s atar turbojet with a modified rd33 turbofan.The south africans successfully did this back in the beginning of the 90s,and it would certainly improve overall logistics,not to mention the performance of the f1 itself,by using the same engine as the mig29 fleet rather than having to maintain yet another logistics line for the small numbers of atars in service.
The most baffling failure on the part of the airforce,at least to my mind,has been its seeming inability to integrate the newer russian a2a weapons ie r27,r60,r73 with the older us/western airframes,which are basically stuck with 70s era sidewinders and sparrows,despite at least one previous attempt to do so.In addition there doesnt seem to have been any attempt to acquire more advanced a2a weapons like the r77 for reverse/re-engineering either despite the considerable potential performance upgrade this could give to the mig 29 fleet alone if it were combined with an indigenous fulcrum C type upgrade.
Very good point Sineva. I really like F1 but, the air frame is way too old, the versions that France gave Iraq which later flew to Iran were inventory ones, and not that great. If I remember correctly, they were made for another country (low level quality of airframe rather than titanium/gold alloy which France use to use at the time for herself). The F1EQs were actually flown on behalf of Iraq/Saddam by French pilots mercenaries making an incredible 60,000 Francs in 1986 and 1987. One attacked Iran's oil ship as south as Bandar Abbas. Yes, French pilot, not Iraqi. I suspect Tom Cooper knows all about it.

You do have a good point but I did some super computing modelling and finally decide against this option. But I surely want to agree and get those babies as standard basic air craft for Iran.

Hence why in one of my earlier posts, I suggested the R35-300 engine (mig 23) as this could be used for a basic aircraft of Iran (similar to a SU 54/55/56 small trainer LIFT (lead in fighter trainer) as I thought this is the most sensible and most logical out of all options.

The good thing about the R35-300 is that it can be used as a LIFT like e.g. Su 54/55/56 or can even use it in a bigger single air craft like the Japanese 14.1 meter X2 ShinShin and still use the same engine in a twin jet like F-14 (with one hell of a lot of modification for casing) and then weight distribution re-analysis since this is a 4.97 meter long engine at about 1.7 tons while the F-14 engine (TF30-414A the one Iran got) is a 6 meter, 2 tone weight engine.

Thanks for you ideas. Great thinking. And yes I agree with the A2A missile integration on iranian platforms. Iran did not trust the Russians after 1999-2000 debacle with regards to the Mig-31 purchase and advanced payments which Russia forced Iran to get a bunch of junk including TOR air defence that shut down the Ukrainian air liner, (SA-15 Gauntlet variant 9K331 but packaged it to look like 9K332) - con job.

I love R37 missiles equally as much as the METEOR.

For fun, consider this: A fighter jet like F1C (lets say), long range radar, simple one (two tube 10kw TWT like the one in F-14 AWG-9 X aggregated/coupled together with 4 solid state amplifer which Iran has), then put 4 METEORs and 2 R37s and that is one hell of a CHEAP fighter jet. But of course everything I just said is nonsense for practical reasons. But still fun to think of such a cheap platform You could build 300 of them.

Yes, yes, I know. Silly and non practical.
RD-33 has been successfully installed and tested on both MIG-21 (F-7) and Mirage F-1 in other countries. Also, as discussed above, Al-21F is a modern copy of J-79 with the same dimensions and higher performance in every aspects. So, following EvilWesteners’ terminology of Standardization, these two engines can cover 5 types of fighters currently serving in the AirForce. A huge relief in logistics and cost for the Air Force! At the same time, J-85 will serve the fleet of F-5, Azaraksh, Saegheh, Kowsar, Yaseen, etc. The only remaining nightmare is the Tomcat fleet! I am not sure Iran can purchase SU-35, or SU-30, and again I am not sure if their engines can be installed on F-14.
This is a straightforward road map for the Air Force with respect to the nightmare of support and maintenance of too many jet engines. Scientists and engineers are there, infrastructure is there, enthusiasms by young generation is there.... Everything is there except for dedicated and patriotic leadership to make it happen!
I agree with you. I have looked at it quite extensively for the last few years. I don't see how RD-33 can be made to work inside F-14. Whatever you do, all kinds of issues arise. But AL21F has better prospect, but still somewhat of a nightmare or close to very difficult, project.

On the other hand, the R35-300 (no I am not plugging this engine, hehe) has real and serious possibilities. Still not easy. But doable if the will is there.
 

EvilWesteners

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Yes and no. Yes because U can find easily any good Iranian engineer able to do this. U seem to forget that Iran does have the know-how to implement any jet engine for a while, maybe since the end of 70's. But.....
I think U don't realize what it asks. To do that U need tool machineries like folding machines, forge machine, forge -cold- machine -not the easiest-, machining tools operations, machining control operations, CNC milling, late, boring, in fact, numerical control. Once you have it, and let's suppose it, to form technicians engineers, scientists etc... that can be suitable for this tool machineries. It asks you decades to overcome this.
If you succeed to have this, it is far to be enough, among the most crucial thing is to get industrial metallurgy infrastructure of Steel, Carbon, Aluminium, Manganese etc.... Steels and its alloys. U will have to master metal alloys etc....This is not all, U need to find and buy some rares metals, and West, like China and Russia, don't allow you. these tasks ask at least several decades. U don't have a wand that allows you to do everything, it is a hard task, and jet engines technology is considered the pinnacle of what a country is capable to do. This is called Infrastructure. I think U are far to realize how huge are these tasks. Moreover, it asks too much money.
I remember in the early 2000's Iran was enthusiasm to produce its own AN-140, and tried to avoid what I describe above, officials bought Ukrainian kits to speed the production of the aircraft, ignoring the trap built by its enemies. As far as I know -unless you have other information -, it was a total failure because most of the kits were jammed, intentionally malfunctioned kits, trapped kits, it resulted of several dramatic lethal accidents in Iran. It was not the error of Iranians, Iranian personnel worked very well, however, U guess who was behind. Most of the Ukrainian industry is managed by israèelis, and controlled with scrutiny by the US, and the entire West. I think this failure pushed Iranians high responsible to build by their own all the infra necessary of the aircraft industry.


There is another thing that U seem to not enough understand, even though you quickly evoke

Indeed no one wants Iran to access this technology. Because neither the West, nor and especially Russia and China wants. Because it does mean the end of Israèl, for that reason everything is good for them to trap Iran, so that Iran will stay dependant on Russia and China.

Nevertheless, the north Koreans allies succeeded to replicate the Mig-29 -there are at least more than 100 NK's Mig-29 operational -. No one knows how maybe they succeeded to buy tool machineries, or they succeeded to build by their own these machineries. In my view, as they succeed to build their own SLBM, Hypersonic weapons, their own tanks, Railguns, then they succeeded to build their own tool machineries. The most reason is: They succeed in 3D Printing's technology. Thus, for Iran, it could change all, but a war with West could be unfortunately a reality soon.
Thank you for your feedback.

You are one of the few people I have heard to (at least publicly) that Israel/U.S. sabotage were behind the AN-140 engine (the Ukrainian built Al-30 series). The engines had "parts" that melted after a certain number of hours of use, since the alloy itself was manipulated in one of the German factories where it was sourced from (I am referring to the additive). Got many IRGC members killed as well as a team of designers from Ukraine.

I do believe Iran CAN design a single engine that will work for Iran for the next 10 years, good enough to allow Iran to hold its own, and with PCC (pre-compression cooling with distilled water and oxidizers) can fly at high altitude (higher than most turbofans, like 75,000ft) with longer range missile (higher altitude, the missiles have longer range) and better at detecting stealth aircrafts than at lower altitude.

But all this is just theory and Iran has no plans or funding or intention to do any of this.
 

Sineva

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Very good point Sineva. I really like F1 but, the air frame is way too old, the versions that France gave Iraq which later flew to Iran were inventory ones, and not that great. If I remember correctly, they were made for another country (low level quality of airframe rather than titanium/gold alloy which France use to use at the time for herself). The F1EQs were actually flown on behalf of Iraq/Saddam by French pilots mercenaries making an incredible 60,000 Francs in 1986 and 1987. One attacked Iran's oil ship as south as Bandar Abbas. Yes, French pilot, not Iraqi. I suspect Tom Cooper knows all about it.

You do have a good point but I did some super computing modelling and finally decide against this option. But I surely want to agree and get those babies as standard basic air craft for Iran.

Hence why in one of my earlier posts, I suggested the R35-300 engine (mig 23) as this could be used for a basic aircraft of Iran (similar to a SU 54/55/56 small trainer LIFT (lead in fighter trainer) as I thought this is the most sensible and most logical out of all options.

The good thing about the R35-300 is that it can be used as a LIFT like e.g. Su 54/55/56 or can even use it in a bigger single air craft like the Japanese 14.1 meter X2 ShinShin and still use the same engine in a twin jet like F-14 (with one hell of a lot of modification for casing) and then weight distribution re-analysis since this is a 4.97 meter long engine at about 1.7 tons while the F-14 engine (TF30-414A the one Iran got) is a 6 meter, 2 tone weight engine.

Thanks for you ideas. Great thinking. And yes I agree with the A2A missile integration on iranian platforms. Iran did not trust the Russians after 1999-2000 debacle with regards to the Mig-31 purchase and advanced payments which Russia forced Iran to get a bunch of junk including TOR air defence that shut down the Ukrainian air liner, (SA-15 Gauntlet variant 9K331 but packaged it to look like 9K332) - con job.

I love R37 missiles equally as much as the METEOR.

For fun, consider this: A fighter jet like F1C (lets say), long range radar, simple one (two tube 10kw TWT like the one in F-14 AWG-9 X aggregated/coupled together with 4 solid state amplifer which Iran has), then put 4 METEORs and 2 R37s and that is one hell of a CHEAP fighter jet. But of course everything I just said is nonsense for practical reasons. But still fun to think of such a cheap platform You could build 300 of them.

Yes, yes, I know. Silly and non practical.


I agree with you. I have looked at it quite extensively for the last few years. I don't see how RD-33 can be made to work inside F-14. Whatever you do, all kinds of issues arise. But AL21F has better prospect, but still somewhat of a nightmare or close to very difficult, project.

On the other hand, the R35-300 (no I am not plugging this engine, hehe) has real and serious possibilities. Still not easy. But doable if the will is there.
I like the way you think EvilWesteners. :enjoy:
My dream iranian fighter jet would`ve been a reverse engineered f14 reengined with 2 D30 solovievs with afterburning AND thrust vectoring,plus fly by wire and the biggest damn aesa they could stick in the nose.

Just out of curiosity what do think about the idea of something along the lines of an iranian viggan but using a re engineered soloviev D30,basically an iranian RM8 equivalent,instead of the PW JT8D?.
 

foxhoundbis

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You are one of the few people I have heard to (at least publicly) that Israel/U.S. sabotage were behind the AN-140 engine (the Ukrainian built Al-30 series)......
But all this is just theory and Iran has no plans or funding or intention to do any of this.
In fact, if you see Ukraine in deep, U will immediately understand that this country is a failed state, was failed state since the collapse of Soviet Union. Consequently, all its industry is a total failure. Unfortunately, Ukraine became in a tragic situation where it can export only good blond pornstars since 1992.
No wonder to see mafia's godfathers, and clowns being Presidents.
In this context, immediately after 1992, Jewish, polish, nazis, Turkish, caucasian's mafias, and after Israelis took all Ukraine's industry. Moreover, US high responsibles , as Israelis, etc...did not hide their intentions to stop Iran by any means. It is no use to be surprised to see the failure of AN-140-unless you do have other information because I don't trust Wikipedia-. I think it was a big error made by your leaders because they did not evaluate in a correct way the situation that has been prevailing in Ukraine since 1992.
Ukraine is the typical state that will collapse a day or another. No need to be a specialist to understand what Ukraine is.

About your conclusion, I share it, because I am sure in the case of conflict with the US, Iran air force will play in the best case a minor role. Why?
Because most of the readers in this forum think that Air Force is something absolutely crucial, most of you think with the air force U can win, or lose a war. You are wrong! During history, in the best case -if you leave western's brainwashing - air force helped in a significant way the victory -except to a lesser extent Japan in 1945-. I cannot enter into detail, it took me pages and pages. For example, the US Nato air campaign against Serbia in 1999 was totally ineffective. Against Iraq in 1991, the air campaign was completely ineffective too. Except for the Israelis surprise attack between June 5, to 11 1967, I don't see where the aircraft were so crucial. For that reason your leaders are not convinced by the importance of the air force, they are right.

However, Iran's access to the Hypersonc's era will change all. Iran's hypersonic's weapons will be a game-changer. If Iran succeeds to build for example good railguns, or magnetized plasma anti-aircraft artilleries no aircraft can trouble the Iranian army. And Iranians can build these weapons.
We are on the verge of a new industrial revolution where the importance of air's weapon will be more and more relative until it will become pointless.
I think your leaders understood this, and they will invest in other areas more effectively.
 
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Saleh99

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@skyshadow Do you know if iran reverse engineered the rotax-912 and rotax-914 for its mohajer-6 and shahed-129? Or they buy them from commercial markets?
 

Saleh99

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no, they buy them but there own engine is ready too
Any specifications or name of the new engine?
As far as I know, iran is developing a turboprop for its shahed-149, but I don’t know anything about engines for mohajer-6 and shahed-129...
 

EvilWesteners

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I like the way you think EvilWesteners. :enjoy:
My dream iranian fighter jet would`ve been a reverse engineered f14 reengined with 2 D30 solovievs with afterburning AND thrust vectoring,plus fly by wire and the biggest damn aesa they could stick in the nose.

Just out of curiosity what do think about the idea of something along the lines of an iranian viggan but using a re engineered soloviev D30,basically an iranian RM8 equivalent,instead of the PW JT8D?.
Ohhh, that would be a nice aricraft, Sineva.

Theoretically, F14A that Iran purchase can be upgraded to a F14D standards, and that would not be impossible if the funds and the will is there to do so. F14 is a great platform to build on. I still believe (compared to Su30 and its variants) that the base platform F14 is better. It is turn maneuvering that few aircrafts can match, even F16. But Iran needs to build new ones, and there is the problem. The titanium wing box is not easy to manufacturing, or I should say, it is difficult to setup the infrastructure for laser welding the way it has to be setup. But if Iran did want to do this or decided to do this, it would be smart. First of all, Iran knows this aircraft better than anyone, when it comes to aerial combat, because it has actually more experience with it than U.S. (we can argue the quality vs. quantity, but still Iran has more experience with it).

Also, F14 has so much that can be modified and enhanced. Wings can be redesigned to carry weapons. External fuel tanks under the nacelle can be modified to carry a Fakour 90 (or an R-37 my favorite, once the length is adjusted), and also the belly carriage can be adjusted to carry 2 x Sayad 3 missiles that will have longer range since they will be launched from air, easily reaching 200km. So with 2 x Sayad 3, 4 Fakour 90 (2 in place of fuel tanks, and 2 under wing gloves) and 2 sidewinder equivalent on tip of wing gloves. That is some potent weapons load.

The structure can certainly take 2 bolt-on 1 ton fuel tanks on top of the wing rotation housing. U.S. was experimenting with that to increase range.

Now, with all that, Iran would need a radar system similar to Irbis-E with a FLIR search and tracking system.

And now with engine:

D-30 and it variants are good engines. Lots of history for Iran (Il-76), and that experience helps with further adoption. But, the engine is heavy, very low trust to weight ratio, questionable if Iran can get the D-30F6 version, and even then this engine is the END OF THE ROAD engine. Nothing to grow from this.

Americans love to sell complex engines to Arab countries (or others) to suck as much money as they can out of them (maintenance, repair, upgrade, overhaul, etc.). However a smart country (that is an oil producing country and can refine oil and produce jet fuel - and especially one that is under sanctions), should consider a TurboJet.

These engines are power-on-demand engines, much easier to build, much easier to maintain and overhaul, much cheaper, and have an amazing trust to weight ratio. Look at R35-300 it has an (almost) 20/19 engine. That is 29,000 pounds of thrust with afterburner and 19,000 pounds without. For an engine that is only 5 meter longs, and 1.7 ton. Not bad at all, by any comparison. If Iran experimented with single-piece fans air entry, blade coating, and PCC (pre-compression cooling) this engine can become even better in fuel efficiency, noise reduction, and weight reduction - and see improvements in reliability and maintenance.

This engine can also achieve higher altitude, better look-down shoot down, and better range AND better detection of stealth fighters (at higher altitude).

So the pros and cons - all favor Iran's circumstances. In my opinion.

Overall, nice idea Sineva. Wished Iran would put in the time and the funds to do a project that you are proposing, like this.
 
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skyshadow

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Any specifications or name of the new engine?
As far as I know, iran is developing a turboprop for its shahed-149, but I don’t know anything about engines for mohajer-6 and shahed-129...
the name of Iranian turboprop that we know about is Chamosh, well shahed-129 uses Rotax 914 and Mohajer-6 uses Rotax 912, but there is another engine that Iran is developing for Mohajer-6 that is more powerful then its Rotax 912.
 
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