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makranman

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THis chart confirms that Bavar is an AMAZING Iranian achievement....Iranian science has reached the top of the world in recent times and its showing. Looks like Iran has planned,prepared and studied what it really needs and wants regarding AD systems...so everything about Bavar is impressive.

Once bavar is deployed to Syria, IAF flights will reduce, because there wont be any Russians to disable it.
and what happens if bavar gets wrecked? all it takes is 30 cruise missiles to destroy a battalion. even less if ballistic missile is used. IMO bavar anywhere but in iran mainland is a bad idea.
 

925boy

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and what happens if bavar gets wrecked? all it takes is 30 cruise missiles to destroy a battalion. even less if ballistic missile is used. IMO bavar anywhere but in iran mainland is a bad idea.
anything can get wrecked, hell, Armenian S300s got wrecked in NK....no system is beyond getting wrecked. ALso, Bavar wont get hit by 30 cruise missiles because it will intercept multiple ones.....and also, most countries cant fire 30 cruise missiles all at once...and bavar wont by the only AD system active in Syria, so there are multiple complicating factors...
 

makranman

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anything can get wrecked, hell, Armenian S300s got wrecked in NK....no system is beyond getting wrecked. ALso, Bavar wont get hit by 30 cruise missiles because it will intercept multiple ones.....and also, most countries cant fire 30 cruise missiles all at once...and bavar wont by the only AD system active in Syria, so there are multiple complicating factors...
unfortunately the enemy is israel here. i think they can fire 100 even more cruise missiles at the same time at a target if they want.
no one else requires a system like bavar. IMO against someone like israel, single systems are not enough.
 

925boy

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unfortunately the enemy is israel here. i think they can fire 100 even more cruise missiles at the same time at a target if they want.
no one else requires a system like bavar. IMO against someone like israel, single systems are not enough.
I understand what you mean about Israel being a competent-enough enemy(NOT ON THE GROUND THOUGH, they suck)....but think about it, if they fire 100 cruise missiles then they will probably have no more than a few hundred more in their inventory, so they will run out fast....if u fire 100 cruise missiles per AD system, you surely will run out within a month, because thats too many and they cost ALOT...

ALso, Israel hasnt fire much(if any) cruise missiles against Syrian AD systems...so i dont believ they prefer that method. will be interesting to see for sure, but i strongly believe syria will buy the Bavars..no question.
 

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I understand what you mean about Israel being a competent-enough enemy(NOT ON THE GROUND THOUGH, they suck)....but think about it, if they fire 100 cruise missiles then they will probably have no more than a few hundred more in their inventory, so they will run out fast....if u fire 100 cruise missiles per AD system, you surely will run out within a month, because thats too many and they cost ALOT...

ALso, Israel hasnt fire much(if any) cruise missiles against Syrian AD systems...so i dont believ they prefer that method. will be interesting to see for sure, but i strongly believe syria will buy the Bavars..no question.


The problem is with static classic air defense doctrine and mentality. Once the position is found out by drones-spy satellites,radio location etc. it doesnt matter by low cost low flying harop style suicide drones, gps guided missiles or bombs that can be carried hundres of kms away by planes or drones which can be produced cheaply or even by accurate artillery /ballistic/cruise missile fire the ad system has little chance.

Also ad system if attacked from accross the border needs to take out the attacker platform from accross the border. That requires long range sam and gives the first strike option to attacker side. Laser guided missiles need to be above the target making the carrying platform vulnurable at the same time but gps guided ammunition can be launched further away from very long distances as much as the missile-muniton allows.

Bavar type system mostly static and stationed deep inside the borders having ultralong range can defend an area to an extent(still vulnurable to cruise missiles and other long range attacks after detected by satellites or radio location so they should reposition continiously as well) but frontline short-medium range systems should be paired in at least 2 to cover the same area. One moving and one scouting rotationally. 5-10 mins or less each time they stay stationary at most otherwise they need to rotate and move continiously in the same area repositioning themselves. Otherwise they are like sitting ducks against long range gps-ins guided missile attacks after being detected no matter the number or quality.

fighter interceptor strategy and bvr engagement should support the ad systems by future interceptor drones(wvr / bvr and a cheaper future option than manned planes) or current fighter aircraft. A2a engagement seems to be more promising since future low observable systems would restrict using missiles that require direct location information to hit for the sam at a very high speed. Airbases are vulnurable so many extra long highways should be built in addition to mountain bases. Short-Medium range ad systems should incorporate LPI measures in their radars and need to move continiously
 

EvilWesteners

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The point is that Iran knows F4 very well. Also Iran knows AL21F engines very well. Meanwhile Iran also has the ability to produce all the parts of F4 or AL21F engines (you can see it at Jahsh-700).

So the possibility is there. The question is: Does it make sense?
GREAT QUESTION ... Ich.

"Does it make sense".

I have toyed with the answer to this question for the past few years. I have run at least 50 design specs (mostly LIFT aircrafts as well as SU-54/55/56 and single engine F4E and single engine YF-23) through my AI Wind Tunnel (a software that emulates wind tunnels and analyzes specs and gives structural analysis charts). I got this running on a super fast computer. The software I got from work a while ago.

When you analyze 50 or so aircrafts and look at things from a dozen different perspectives, AND you change your mind on "making sense" from aircraft to aircraft, it makes you think differently.

Nothing I have analyzed or thought of makes sense long term for Iran, other than a genuinely 5th gen set (2) of aircraft that would be a single engine smaller YF23 and a twin engine larger YF23. Although not necessarily from the "stealth" capability. I don't think much of that for Iran's needs.

However, even if Iran wanted to build these two for the air force to complement its military for defence, even if Iran had the billions of Dollars to invest in this, even if Iran had the talent to build this (I wished everyone knew what happened with Nimrod in UK to understand my point), still with all that .... it would take at least 10-15 years, from building and refining the infrastructure and tooling, to parts manufacturing. It would easily cost Iran some $50b. And remember YF23 is a 1980s design for U.S. i.e. the technology level.

Myself?

I like a twin engines (using J97) Saab Gripen

I also like a single engine (R-35-300) X2 Shinshin

or a a single engine (R-35-300) Mig35 and a F-14 with 2 x R-35-300 engines

The RCS does not concern me much, as we are entering a new dawn by 2024, with SAT (Synchronized Asymmetrical Triangulation), or whatever name they will have for it then. The French are working on this like crazy. They are the best in electronics (in my opinion). U.S. defence industry has 1000s of French engineers working in these companies.

So, the answer to your question ????

NO - it does not make sense. That is an honest non-emotional answer.

But, I have to ask myself ... WHERE IS IRAN TODAY and what are its needs and for defence and deterence?

Then the idea becomes more appealing when I consider Iran's problems, challenges, its funds, and its current air force infrastructure, pilot training, etc. etc..

Then considering how it can protect its interest, and enforce deterence ... Then it becomes forcibly an appealing option.

I heard a U.S. top level general make a comment that was not publicly wise ... what I concluded from his comment was that .... If Iran builds a fighter jet of its own (even a modified F4E, but higher level than F5) then Russians and Chinese are more likely to sell Iran a TOT and assembly line for a SU35 or J31.

When Iran demonstrated its WILL and its ABILITY to shoot down a U.S. RQ-4A, Russia started to think of Iran as a potential partner (one that it can seriously rely on). Unfortunately, when Qassem Sullaimani was assassinated, and Iran's response was "disappointing" from Russia's point of view, the calculus changed again.

The Russians had suggested to Iran that it should wait for a meeting between Pompeo and MBS and then retaliate by taking them out. Zarif and Ruhani are connected in hips to Europe, they think is the saviour of Iran's circumstances. So they disagreed and never took that advice. They are not thinking about the ripple effect, although I admit Iran's security apparatus is a million times smarter than me. But Europe is not much different than U.S. in many ways. Look at how they are sanctioning Libya for no freaking reason. Just because they can.

Thanks for your comments.



The point is that Iran knows F4 very well. Also Iran knows AL21F engines very well. Meanwhile Iran also has the ability to produce all the parts of F4 or AL21F engines (you can see it at Jahsh-700).

So the possibility is there. The question is: Does it make sense?
 
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Ich

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GREAT QUESTION ... Ich.

"Does it make sense".

I have toyed with the answer to this question for the past few years. I have run at least 50 design specs (mostly LIFT aircrafts as well as SU-54/55/56 and single engine F4E and single engine YF-23) through my AI Wind Tunnel (a software that emulates wind tunnels and analyzes specs and gives structural analysis charts). I got this running on a super fast computer. The software I got from work a while ago.
Yes, i also talked here about simulating the complete air plane building process in virtual reality, sometimes. With the new supercomputers Iran now can do the same you do and maybe a bit better. So design and development isnt a long process for Iran now.

When you analyze 50 or so aircrafts and look at things from a dozen different perspectives, AND you change your mind on "making sense" from aircraft to aircraft, it makes you think differently.

Nothing I have analyzed or thought of makes sense long term for Iran, other than a genuinely 5th gen set (2) of aircraft that would be a single engine smaller YF23 and a twin engine larger YF23. Although not necessarily from the "stealth" capability. I don't think much of that for Iran's needs.

However, even if Iran wanted to build these two for the air force to complement its military for defence, even if Iran had the billions of Dollars to invest in this, even if Iran had the talent to build this (I wished everyone knew what happened with Nimrod in UK to understand my point), still with all that .... it would take at least 10-15 years, from building and refining the infrastructure and tooling, to parts manufacturing. It would easily cost Iran some $50b. And remember YF23 is a 1980s design for U.S. i.e. the technology level.
Iran also needs transport aircrafts (plane and choppers), air tankers, medium AWACs and so on. But yes, 2 standard: A fighter/interceptor and a bomber/multirole.

Me think Iran developed and tested its "building and refining the infrastructure and tooling, to parts manufacturing" over the last 30 years. This went hand in hand with the development of all the F5 variants. The long learning process. Also the organization of an air plane production line and how to connect different air plane parts industries to this production line to let the production flow. Hmm, my englisch isnt efficient :( But there are Vids one can see it with the production line of one of the F5 variants. Like here


It is clear to see that it is an modular approche and for every section there are the needed parts standing left and right, like it is in the automobile industry. One can see this approche also in the production line of their missiles or UAVs ect.. So for me its clear that Iran know how to build an air plane production line for a newer aircraft type and also know how to implement the parts industry in its flow.


Myself?

I like a twin engines (using J97) Saab Gripen

I also like a single engine (R-35-300) X2 Shinshin

or a a single engine (R-35-300) Mig35 and a F-14 with 2 x R-35-300 engines

The RCS does not concern me much, as we are entering a new dawn by 2024, with SAT (Synchronized Asymmetrical Triangulation), or whatever name they will have for it then. The French are working on this like crazy. They are the best in electronics (in my opinion). U.S. defence industry has 1000s of French engineers working in these companies.
Haha, yes, there is no such thing like "optimal RCS". Even a ball would make problems under some conditions. One even dont need a SAT to highlight "stealth" planes from above. Even the HAARP system can do it if it let bounce the frenquency from the ionosphere down to the area where the "stealth" plane is.


So, the answer to your question ????

NO - it does not make sense. That is an honest non-emotional answer.

But, I have to ask myself ... WHERE IS IRAN TODAY and what are its needs and for defence and deterence?

Then the idea becomes more appealing when I consider Iran's problems, challenges, its funds, and its current air force infrastructure, pilot training, etc. etc..

Then considering how it can protect its interest, and enforce deterence ... Then it becomes forcibly an appealing option.

I heard a U.S. top level general make a comment that was not publicly wise ... what I concluded from his comment was that .... If Iran builds a fighter jet of its own (even a modified F4E, but higher level than F5) then Russians and Chinese are more likely to sell Iran a TOT and assembly line for a SU35 or J31.

When Iran demonstrated its WILL and its ABILITY to shoot down a U.S. RQ-4A, Russia started to think of Iran as a potential partner (one that it can seriously rely on). Unfortunately, when Qassem Sullaimani was assassinated, and Iran's response was "disappointing" from Russia's point of view, the calculus changed again.

The Russians had suggested to Iran that it should wait for a meeting between Pompeo and MBS and then retaliate by taking them out. Zarif and Ruhani are connected in hips to Europe, they think is the saviour of Iran's circumstances. So they disagreed and never took that advice. They are not thinking about the ripple effect, although I admit Iran's security apparatus is a million times smarter than me. But Europe is not much different than U.S. in many ways. Look at how they are sanctioning Libya for no freaking reason. Just because they can.

Thanks for your comments.
So you like the R-35-300 cause of its very good output while it is still a "simple" turbojet. But as i read this engine needs up to 8 tons fuel per hour in normal modus (dry) and up to 25 tons fuel per hour in afterburner modus (wet). So me wonder how far/long a mig23 with that engine would fly. And low fuel consumption and long range due to that, while having the same or better output is recomended for the next new iranian planes in my opinion. And it looks like that a turbofan would be the solution for that.

Edit:

sorry for spamming air defence thread
 

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